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From: Brian Gerst <bgerst@didntduck.org>
To: Andrea Arcangeli <andrea@suse.de>
Cc: William Lee Irwin III <wli@holomorphy.com>,
	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:31:30 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <43944F42.2070207@didntduck.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20051206011844.GO28539@opteron.random>

Andrea Arcangeli wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 04:18:51AM -0800, William Lee Irwin III wrote:
>> The December 6 event is extraordinarily unlikely. What's vastly more
>> likely is consistent "erosion" over time. First the 3D video drivers,
>> then the wireless network drivers, then the fakeraid drivers, and so on.
> 
> I agree about the erosion.
> 
> I am convinced that the only way to stop the erosion is to totally stop
> buying hardware that has only binary only drivers (unless you buy it to
> create an open source driver or to reverse engineer the binary only
> driver of course! ;).
> 
> For example if a laptop has an embedded wirless or 3d card not supported by
> open source drivers, buy a laptop without any wireless card or without
> 3d, instead of buying one with the not-supported hardware without using
> it (I can guarantee there are still laptops that requires no 3d
> binary only drivers and no wirless cards drivers, even for the winmodems
> you can choose the ones supported by alsa). We literally have to refuse
> buying those cards with binary only kernel drivers.
> 
> Every time we buy a piece of hardware with binary only drivers we admit
> that the binary only driver vendors are doing the right choice for their
> stockholders. Only when we refuse to buy it, we can make a slight difference.
> When we don't buy hardware without open source drivers, we send the
> message to the shareholders that the management is causing them a loss.

The problem with this statement is that Linux users are a drop in the 
bucket of sales for this hardware.  Boycotting doesn't cost the vendors 
enough to make them care.  And this does nothing for people who are 
converting over to Linux, and didn't buy hardware with that 
consideration in mind.

The only way to break the stalemate is to reverse engineer drivers. 
Turning the screws tighter isn't going to make open drivers magically 
appear.  More likely, the vendors will abandon Linux as being too 
hostile and/or too costly to support, leaving everybody back at square one.

--
				Brian Gerst

  reply	other threads:[~2005-12-06  2:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 315+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-12-05 10:52 Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-05 11:39 ` Dave Airlie
2005-12-05 13:55   ` Xavier Bestel
2005-12-08 14:27   ` Graham Murray
2005-12-05 12:18 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-12-05 13:07   ` Pekka Enberg
2005-12-05 18:44     ` Alistair John Strachan
2005-12-05 19:47       ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-06 10:51       ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-06 12:29         ` Ralf Baechle
2005-12-07  0:01       ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-12-06 17:03     ` Jon Masters
2005-12-06  1:18   ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-05 14:31     ` Brian Gerst [this message]
2005-12-06  3:08       ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-05 16:23         ` Brian Gerst
2005-12-06 18:42           ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 19:23             ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 21:33               ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 22:25               ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 22:49                 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 23:03                   ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 23:25                 ` Andrew Grover
2005-12-07  0:56                   ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 10:42         ` Sander
     [not found]         ` <f0cc38560512060307m2ccc6db8xd9180c2a1a926c5c@mail.gmail.com>
2005-12-06 11:44           ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06  1:43             ` Brian Gerst
2005-12-06 14:09               ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-14 16:33                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-12-14 17:01                   ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-14 17:20                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-12-14 18:51                       ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-06 14:13               ` Rudolf Randal
2005-12-06 14:49               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 21:39                 ` Nicolas Mailhot
2005-12-08  0:58                   ` Kasper Sandberg
2005-12-08  2:24                     ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08  6:21                       ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2005-12-08 12:31                         ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 12:39                           ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-08 13:01                             ` Matan Peled
2005-12-08 16:55                           ` Kasper Sandberg
2005-12-08 19:32                     ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-08 21:10                       ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-09  6:12                         ` Ben Greear
2005-12-07  7:02                 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-07  7:03                   ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 15:16               ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 15:30               ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-06 15:49                 ` Paweł Sikora
2005-12-06 19:00                   ` Tomasz Torcz
2005-12-06 19:11                     ` Paweł Sikora
2005-12-06 19:34                       ` Tomasz Torcz
2005-12-06 20:29                       ` Dave Jones
2005-12-06 23:25                         ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 19:13               ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 19:37                 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 19:41                   ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 19:55                     ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 20:25                       ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 21:55                         ` Dave Airlie
2005-12-06 21:49                       ` Reverse engineering (was Re: Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario) Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 20:54                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-06 23:13                           ` Reverse engineering Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 23:19                             ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 22:21                         ` Reverse engineering (was Re: Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario) Lee Revell
2005-12-06 23:48                           ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 22:44                       ` Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario Florian Weimer
2005-12-06 22:56                         ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 23:17                         ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 21:00               ` Francois Romieu
2005-12-08  1:04                 ` Kasper Sandberg
     [not found]             ` <6f6293f10512060404x57cfb97dqaa469f2701cd2528@mail.gmail.com>
2005-12-06 12:11               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 15:09               ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06  9:07       ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-06 10:46         ` Sander
2005-12-06 16:41           ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-06 18:48             ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 21:35               ` Grahame White
2005-12-07  8:09                 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-07 12:47                   ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2005-12-07  0:45             ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-07 14:17             ` Runs with Linux (tm) Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-07 14:34               ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-07 18:13               ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-12-07 18:22                 ` Jesse Barnes
2005-12-12 21:13                   ` David Lang
2005-12-12 21:20                     ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-12-07 19:12               ` Lee Revell
2005-12-07 19:47                 ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-07 22:23                   ` Jeffrey Hundstad
1970-01-02  3:28                     ` Pavel Machek
2005-12-07 22:29                     ` Michael Poole
2005-12-08  8:08                       ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-07 22:49                     ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-08  3:28                     ` Magnus Damm
2005-12-08  2:07               ` Richard Knutsson
2005-12-08  2:38                 ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-08  4:15                   ` Richard Knutsson
2005-12-08  8:50                     ` free Driver proposal (tm) Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-08  9:42               ` Runs with Linux (tm) jerome lacoste
2005-12-08 11:04                 ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-08 11:48                   ` jerome lacoste
2005-12-08 12:23                     ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-09  5:49         ` Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario Miles Bader
2005-12-09  9:49           ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-09  9:53             ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 15:17       ` Pavel Machek
2005-12-13  2:00         ` Rob Landley
2005-12-13  7:56           ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-13  9:07             ` Rob Landley
2005-12-13 10:18               ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-07 15:06       ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-08  7:14       ` Andrew McGregor
2005-12-06  8:29     ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 18:39       ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-07 18:44         ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-12-07 18:55           ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 19:53             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-12-07 20:22               ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-12-07 20:30                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 20:56                   ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-07 21:02                 ` Dave Jones
2005-12-07 21:30                   ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-12-07 21:38                     ` David S. Miller
2005-12-07 21:47                       ` Andrew Walrond
2005-12-07 21:53                       ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-12-12 17:52                       ` Ric Wheeler
2005-12-13  8:17                         ` Andrew Walrond
2005-12-07 20:16             ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-07 20:19               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 20:40                 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-08 13:23                   ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-08 14:03                     ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 18:44                 ` Dave Neuer
2005-12-07 20:51               ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-07 19:34           ` Lee Revell
2005-12-07 23:17           ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-09  6:17             ` Ben Greear
2005-12-08 10:58           ` Sander
2005-12-06 12:26     ` Denis Vlasenko
2005-12-06 15:36       ` Hannu Savolainen
2005-12-06 18:51         ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 20:26           ` Hannu Savolainen
2005-12-07 15:18         ` Avi Kivity
2005-12-07 20:10       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
     [not found]         ` <f0cc38560512071322m1d370589vd9f8a7684fa2ee1d@mail.gmail.com>
2005-12-08 12:19           ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-12-06 17:23     ` Jon Masters
2005-12-05 17:18 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-05 17:29   ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-05 22:52     ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06  6:28     ` Rob Landley
2005-12-05 18:26 ` Andrew Walrond
2005-12-05 18:34   ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-05 19:41     ` jmerkey
2005-12-06  9:26     ` [OT] " Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-12-06 16:27     ` Simon Oosthoek
2005-12-06 18:50       ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-08  8:14         ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-08 11:30           ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-12 11:27             ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-08 13:48           ` Nix
2005-12-12 12:01             ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-12 19:46               ` Nix
2005-12-13  8:10                 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-13 22:21                   ` Nix
2005-12-14  8:14                     ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-16  7:38                       ` Nix
2005-12-05 21:19   ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-05 21:24     ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-05 21:54       ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-05 23:56         ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06  0:10           ` Dave Airlie
2005-12-06  0:23             ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06  0:26               ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06  4:08               ` Greg KH
2005-12-06  6:07                 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-12-06  7:06                   ` Neil Brown
2005-12-06  8:13                   ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06  9:10                     ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 16:47                   ` Greg KH
2005-12-06  7:58                 ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-06 16:11                   ` Greg KH
2005-12-07  1:38                     ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-07  2:40                       ` Greg KH
2005-12-07  3:23                         ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-07  5:29                           ` Greg KH
2005-12-07 18:57                           ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-10  5:17                       ` GNU/Linux " Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-06 18:56                   ` Linux " Luke-Jr
2005-12-07  1:42                     ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-07  2:06                       ` Wed, 7 Dec 2005 03:06:35 +0100
2005-12-07  5:25                         ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-10  5:16                       ` GNU/Linux " Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-10  7:06                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-10 16:43                           ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-10 19:05                             ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-10 18:44                               ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-10 19:15                                 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-10 20:44                                   ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-10 21:47                                     ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-11 13:56                                     ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-11 15:15                                     ` Erwin Rol
2005-12-11 16:38                                       ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-12 15:51                                         ` Alan Cox
2005-12-11 16:27                                     ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-11 16:49                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-11 23:19                                     ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-12 13:45                                       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-12 15:34                                         ` Lee Revell
2005-12-12 15:37                                           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-11 13:24                             ` Bernd Petrovitsch
     [not found]                           ` <39068.10.10.10.28.1134245083.squirrel@linux1>
2005-12-10 20:04                             ` [way OT] " Sean
2005-12-11  2:12                           ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-11  5:40                           ` Patrick McLean
     [not found]                           ` <E1ElJMz-00047E-1p@fencepost.gnu.org>
2005-12-11  8:34                             ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-12  0:44                               ` Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-12  0:50                                 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-12  3:03                                   ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-06  4:18               ` Linux " Al Viro
2005-12-06  2:22             ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-06  3:56               ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2005-12-06  4:27                 ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-06 18:33                 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-12-06 19:12                   ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2005-12-06 19:15                     ` Jesper Juhl
2005-12-08 21:49                 ` Rob Landley
2005-12-10  2:38                   ` Lee Revell
2005-12-10  5:51                 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-06 11:38               ` Jean-Christian de Rivaz
2005-12-06 19:12                 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-12-06 21:13                   ` Jon Masters
2005-12-06  0:14           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06  0:34           ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06  0:53           ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06  1:20             ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06  1:35               ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06  1:55                 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06  9:16               ` Xavier Bestel
2005-12-06  9:26               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06  9:56                 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 10:09                   ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 14:50                   ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 15:25                     ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 19:58                       ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 19:20                     ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06  4:12           ` Greg KH
2005-12-06  4:18             ` Michael Poole
2005-12-06 17:21               ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-07 12:39                 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-07 12:41                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-07 14:25               ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-07 15:56                 ` Michael Poole
2005-12-06 18:19             ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-12-06 19:27               ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 19:38                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-12-06 20:18                   ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 20:53                     ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-12-07 14:30           ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-05 23:24 ` Matthieu CASTET
2005-12-06 13:28   ` Ralf Baechle
2005-12-06  2:58 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-12-06 13:13 ` Rudolf Randal
2005-12-06 15:09   ` Mark Lord
2005-12-06 16:16 ` Jon Smirl
2005-12-06 16:32   ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-07 12:44     ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-07 12:49       ` Alan Cox
2005-12-07 16:15       ` Jon Smirl
2005-12-07 12:55     ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2005-12-07 21:46   ` Chase Venters
2005-12-07 23:07     ` Alan Cox
2005-12-07 23:41       ` Jon Smirl
2005-12-07 23:59         ` Chase Venters
2005-12-08  8:24           ` Helge Hafting
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-12-06 14:23 Aimo Asiakas
2005-12-06 14:36 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 15:31 ` Pekka Enberg
2005-12-07 21:06 Salyzyn, Mark
2005-12-12 14:45 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-13  8:25 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-13  9:44   ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-13 12:14     ` Alan Cox
2005-12-14  8:59     ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-14  9:14       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-13 17:02   ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-14  8:48     ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-08 10:27 Nicolas Mailhot
2005-12-09 15:59 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-08 15:49 AW: " dirk
2005-12-08 16:14 ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 20:28   ` Horst von Brand
     [not found] <20051208083941.B233113E51@rhn.tartu-labor>
2005-12-08 17:13 ` Kasper Sandberg
2005-12-13 22:59 mreuther
2005-12-13 23:05 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-13 23:54 art
2005-12-14 21:13 Al Boldi
2005-12-14 21:27 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-15  4:49   ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15  5:24     ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-15  8:31       ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15  8:53         ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-15  9:24         ` Nick Piggin
     [not found]         ` <48526.10.10.10.28.1134639327.squirrel@linux1>
2005-12-15  9:35           ` Sean
2005-12-15 11:14         ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-15 18:29           ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15 19:01             ` Dmitry Torokhov
2005-12-15 19:06             ` Lee Revell
2005-12-15 19:09             ` Al Viro
2005-12-16  2:09             ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-19 10:57             ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-19 15:19               ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15  5:39     ` Kyle Moffett
2005-12-15  7:11     ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-15  9:11 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
     [not found] <5jMcG-5mY-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <5jWON-3xQ-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <5jZk7-7iD-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <5k6bw-AI-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
2005-12-16  6:57       ` Bodo Eggert

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