[PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Jaco Kroon]

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Based on the patch at
http://unixhead.org/docs/thinkpad/ati-agp/ati-agp.diff, add support for
suspend/resume in the ati-agp module.

Signed-of-by: Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za>

--- linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c.orig	2005-12-25
22:21:32.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c	2005-12-26
06:47:26.000000000 +0200
@@ -243,6 +243,10 @@
 	return 0;
 }

+static int agp_ati_resume(struct pci_dev *dev)
+{
+	return ati_configure();
+}

 /*
  *Since we don't need contigious memory we just try
@@ -525,6 +529,7 @@
 	.id_table	= agp_ati_pci_table,
 	.probe		= agp_ati_probe,
 	.remove		= agp_ati_remove,
+	.resume		= agp_ati_resume,
 };

 static int __init agp_ati_init(void)
-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> Based on the patch at
> http://unixhead.org/docs/thinkpad/ati-agp/ati-agp.diff, add support for
> suspend/resume in the ati-agp module.
> 
> Signed-of-by: Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za>

ACKed-by: Pavel Machek <pavel@suse.cz>

> --- linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c.orig	2005-12-25
> 22:21:32.000000000 +0200
> +++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c	2005-12-26
> 06:47:26.000000000 +0200

Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...

								Pavel

> @@ -243,6 +243,10 @@
>  	return 0;
>  }
> 
> +static int agp_ati_resume(struct pci_dev *dev)
> +{
> +	return ati_configure();
> +}
> 
>  /*
>   *Since we don't need contigious memory we just try
> @@ -525,6 +529,7 @@
>  	.id_table	= agp_ati_pci_table,
>  	.probe		= agp_ati_probe,
>  	.remove		= agp_ati_remove,
> +	.resume		= agp_ati_resume,
>  };
> 
>  static int __init agp_ati_init(void)

-- 
Thanks, Sharp!

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Jaco Kroon]

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Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!

>>--- linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c.orig	2005-12-25
>>22:21:32.000000000 +0200
>>+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c	2005-12-26
>>06:47:26.000000000 +0200
> 
> 
> Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
> to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...

Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
mutt, any other recomendations?

I've mailed off the patch now using mailx but that isn't going to be an
option in the long run.

Jaco
-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Steven Rostedt]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 10:55 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> Pavel Machek wrote:

> > 
> > Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
> > to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...
> 
> Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> mutt, any other recomendations?
> 
> I've mailed off the patch now using mailx but that isn't going to be an
> option in the long run.

I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
"as-is").

-- Steve

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Alistair John Strachan]

On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 10:55 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > Pavel Machek wrote:
> > > Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
> > > to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...
> >
> > Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> > just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> > mutt, any other recomendations?
> >
> > I've mailed off the patch now using mailx but that isn't going to be an
> > option in the long run.
>
> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
> "as-is").

Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time. It 
will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left 
untouched.

This satisfies Linus's demand that all patches be part of the email body and 
not an attachment.

-- 
Cheers,
Alistair.

'No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway.'
Third year Computer Science undergraduate.
1F2 55 South Clerk Street, Edinburgh, UK.

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 10:55 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > > Pavel Machek wrote:
> > > > Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
> > > > to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...
> > >
> > > Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> > > just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> > > mutt, any other recomendations?
> > >
> > > I've mailed off the patch now using mailx but that isn't going to be an
> > > option in the long run.
> >
> > I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
> > my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
> > handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
> > may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
> > "as-is").
> 
> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time. It 
> will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left 
> untouched.

It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has this
problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline patches and
even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a serious
usability/UI issue.

Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla developers
at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) and
hopefully this will light a fire under someone.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Jason Munro]

On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:

<snip>

> >  Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> >  long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
> >  typing; pastes are left untouched.
>
> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> this problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> patches and even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong
> points to a serious usability/UI issue.
>
> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> developers at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem
> so far) and hopefully this will light a fire under someone.

Maybe this is a stupid question but in terms of inline patches what exactly
would be ideal behavior from a mail client for LKML patch submitters? What
line lengths are expected to be maintained, preferred encodings, tabs vs.
spaces, etc? I have noticed that some patch submitters append an EOF after
the patch, while others do not. Would the ability to pull the patch from
the message body (assuming there was an agreed upon patch termination
string) as a separate file/download be useful? Though my client is web
based it is quite speedy and can handle large folders as well as many
desktop clients IMHO. I would gladly implement specific features to make
patch submission for LKML compliant.


\__  Jason Munro
 \__ jason@stdbev.com
  \__ http://hastymail.sourceforge.net/

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
> On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > >  Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> > >  long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
> > >  typing; pastes are left untouched.
> >
> > It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> > this problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> > patches and even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong
> > points to a serious usability/UI issue.
> >
> > Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> > SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> > developers at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem
> > so far) and hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> 
> Maybe this is a stupid question but in terms of inline patches what exactly
> would be ideal behavior from a mail client for LKML patch submitters? What
> line lengths are expected to be maintained, preferred encodings, tabs vs.
> spaces, etc? I have noticed that some patch submitters append an EOF after
> the patch, while others do not. Would the ability to pull the patch from
> the message body (assuming there was an agreed upon patch termination
> string) as a separate file/download be useful? Though my client is web
> based it is quite speedy and can handle large folders as well as many
> desktop clients IMHO. I would gladly implement specific features to make
> patch submission for LKML compliant.

The specifics do not matter.  It does not even have to do what we want
by default when you paste or insert text.  There just has to be SOME way
(well, some reasonable way - a global config option is not reasonable)
to insert a text file and paste from the clipboard as-is, no tab->space
conversion, no line wrapping, nothing.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients

[Jaco Kroon]

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Lee Revell wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
> 
>>On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>> long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
>>>> typing; pastes are left untouched.
>>>
>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
>>>this problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
>>>patches and even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong
>>>points to a serious usability/UI issue.
>>>
>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
>>>developers at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem
>>>so far) and hopefully this will light a fire under someone.

I would second that patch.

>>Maybe this is a stupid question but in terms of inline patches what exactly
>>would be ideal behavior from a mail client for LKML patch submitters? What
>>line lengths are expected to be maintained, preferred encodings, tabs vs.
>>spaces, etc? I have noticed that some patch submitters append an EOF after
>>the patch, while others do not. Would the ability to pull the patch from
>>the message body (assuming there was an agreed upon patch termination
>>string) as a separate file/download be useful? Though my client is web
>>based it is quite speedy and can handle large folders as well as many
>>desktop clients IMHO. I would gladly implement specific features to make
>>patch submission for LKML compliant.
> 
> 
> The specifics do not matter.  It does not even have to do what we want
> by default when you paste or insert text.  There just has to be SOME way
> (well, some reasonable way - a global config option is not reasonable)
> to insert a text file and paste from the clipboard as-is, no tab->space
> conversion, no line wrapping, nothing.

And mozilla only does the line-wrapping (with no way that I can find to
switch it off).  It doesn't do tab->space conversion, that usually (in
my experience) results from c&p'ing from an [axe]term which outputs
spaces instead of tabs to begin with (well, it does represent a
character matrix so I don't really see another way).

Ideally (imho) one would like the 'changelog' part to be line-wrapped
(to keep it from running into oblivion) but the patch part to be left
"as is".  There is also the [PATCH] subject prefix and signed-of-by
requirements.  The only other recommendation (that I recall) is that the
changelog and the patch be seperated by '---' - but since this is part
of the initial output of the diff command this is done implicitly.

I've looked at a few clients and it seems I'm stuck with mozilla for at
least a while.  Whilst probably the buggiest client there is it does
look like it's the best suited for what I want.  I might switch to
FireFox (which iirc does have an "insert file" feature - which might
also solve this problem).

For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
patches (the intent is to perform certain checks for Signed-of-by lines,
correct [PATCH] subject and so forth).  If anybody else is interrested
I'd be more than happy to share (albeit I suspect the usefullness will
be seriously limited).

Jaco
-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: recommended mail clients

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:28 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> And mozilla only does the line-wrapping (with no way that I can find
> to switch it off).  It doesn't do tab->space conversion, that usually
> (in my experience) results from c&p'ing from an [axe]term which
> outputs spaces instead of tabs to begin with (well, it does represent
> a character matrix so I don't really see another way). 

Yup, but diff foo bar | xclip is just as easy (easier) and always does
the right thing.  Unfortunately xclip isn't always available.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients

[Jaco Kroon]

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Lee Revell wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:28 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> 
>>And mozilla only does the line-wrapping (with no way that I can find
>>to switch it off).  It doesn't do tab->space conversion, that usually
>>(in my experience) results from c&p'ing from an [axe]term which
>>outputs spaces instead of tabs to begin with (well, it does represent
>>a character matrix so I don't really see another way). 
> 
> 
> Yup, but diff foo bar | xclip is just as easy (easier) and always does
> the right thing.  Unfortunately xclip isn't always available.

Ah, and so I learn something new.  For those that care:
http://people.debian.org/~kims/xclip/.

Now _that_ looks like a simple but extremely handy tool, thanks.
-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: recommended mail clients

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:28 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> I've looked at a few clients and it seems I'm stuck with mozilla for
> at least a while.  Whilst probably the buggiest client there is it
> does look like it's the best suited for what I want.  I might switch
> to FireFox (which iirc does have an "insert file" feature - which
> might also solve this problem).
> 
> For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
> wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
> patches 

I am amused at how many people are not scared of kernel hacking but will
go to great lengths to avoid looking at the Mozilla code :-)

IMHO "Insert File" is suboptimal, it's better to make C&P work right. 

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 01:48:54PM -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> I am amused at how many people are not scared of kernel hacking but will
> go to great lengths to avoid looking at the Mozilla code :-)

That probly because those who looked at it once don't want to do that again
ever.

Re: recommended mail clients

[Jaco Kroon]

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Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 01:48:54PM -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> 
>>I am amused at how many people are not scared of kernel hacking but will
>>go to great lengths to avoid looking at the Mozilla code :-)
> 
> 
> That probly because those who looked at it once don't want to do that again
> ever.
> 

How did you guess?  Kernel-code makes sense mosly (Thanks to Linus and
many of the other main Gurus), there isn't many other projects I've
looked at of which I can say the same.

Jaco
-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: recommended mail clients

[Coywolf Qi Hunt]

2005/12/27, Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com>:
> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:28 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > I've looked at a few clients and it seems I'm stuck with mozilla for
> > at least a while.  Whilst probably the buggiest client there is it
> > does look like it's the best suited for what I want.  I might switch
> > to FireFox (which iirc does have an "insert file" feature - which
> > might also solve this problem).
> >
> > For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
> > wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
> > patches
>
> I am amused at how many people are not scared of kernel hacking but will
> go to great lengths to avoid looking at the Mozilla code :-)


To me, looking at Mozilla code means a lot. I'm too lazy to dig into
gtk and glib. But kernel code is quite straightforward.

-- Coywolf


>
> IMHO "Insert File" is suboptimal, it's better to make C&P work right.
>
> Lee
>

--
Coywolf Qi Hunt

Re: recommended mail clients

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:28:40 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:

> Lee Revell wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
> > 
> >>On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> >>>> long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
> >>>> typing; pastes are left untouched.

sylpheed also DTRT.  (http://sylpheed.good-day.net)
It's a simple, clean email client.

> I've looked at a few clients and it seems I'm stuck with mozilla for at
> least a while.  Whilst probably the buggiest client there is it does
> look like it's the best suited for what I want.  I might switch to
> FireFox (which iirc does have an "insert file" feature - which might
> also solve this problem).

Firefox has an email interface??

> For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
> wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
> patches (the intent is to perform certain checks for Signed-of-by lines,
> correct [PATCH] subject and so forth).  If anybody else is interrested
> I'd be more than happy to share (albeit I suspect the usefullness will
> be seriously limited).

Greg KH and Paul Jackson have both written scripts for this.
And there may be one in the quilt package.

Paul's (python) is at
  http://www.speakeasy.org/~pj99/sgi/sendpatchset
I don't recall where Greg's is (perl).

---
~Randy

Re: recommended mail clients

[Jaco Kroon]

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Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:28:40 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:
> 
> 
>>Lee Revell wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>>>>long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
>>>>>>typing; pastes are left untouched.
> 
> 
> sylpheed also DTRT.  (http://sylpheed.good-day.net)
> It's a simple, clean email client.
> 
> 
>>I've looked at a few clients and it seems I'm stuck with mozilla for at
>>least a while.  Whilst probably the buggiest client there is it does
>>look like it's the best suited for what I want.  I might switch to
>>FireFox (which iirc does have an "insert file" feature - which might
>>also solve this problem).
> 
> 
> Firefox has an email interface??

Thunderbird ... (my brain is rotting ok ... ?)

>>For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
>>wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
>>patches (the intent is to perform certain checks for Signed-of-by lines,
>>correct [PATCH] subject and so forth).  If anybody else is interrested
>>I'd be more than happy to share (albeit I suspect the usefullness will
>>be seriously limited).
> 
> Greg KH and Paul Jackson have both written scripts for this.
> And there may be one in the quilt package.
> 
> Paul's (python) is at
>   http://www.speakeasy.org/~pj99/sgi/sendpatchset
> I don't recall where Greg's is (perl).

/me grabs a copy.


-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: recommended mail clients

[Jaco Kroon]

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Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:28:40 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:
>>For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
>>wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
>>patches (the intent is to perform certain checks for Signed-of-by lines,
>>correct [PATCH] subject and so forth).  If anybody else is interrested
>>I'd be more than happy to share (albeit I suspect the usefullness will
>>be seriously limited).
> 
> 
> Greg KH and Paul Jackson have both written scripts for this.
> And there may be one in the quilt package.
> 
> Paul's (python) is at
>   http://www.speakeasy.org/~pj99/sgi/sendpatchset
> I don't recall where Greg's is (perl).

Don't know about Greg's but Paul's doesn't quite do what I had in mind:

http://www.kroon.co.za/downloads/sendpatch

It's written in bash (obviously).  Any suggestions welcome, flames will
be redirected to /dev/null :P.  And obviously the lack of comments in
the code is "bad".  Tough.

Jaco
-- 
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
  those that understand binary and those that don't.
http://www.kroon.co.za/

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Re: recommended mail clients

[Ryan Anderson]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 10:58:22AM -0800, Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:28:40 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > For the moment though I'm quickly hacking together a bash script that
> > wraps the sendmail binary that can be used specifically for submitting
> > patches (the intent is to perform certain checks for Signed-of-by lines,
> > correct [PATCH] subject and so forth).  If anybody else is interrested
> > I'd be more than happy to share (albeit I suspect the usefullness will
> > be seriously limited).
> 
> Greg KH and Paul Jackson have both written scripts for this.
> And there may be one in the quilt package.
> 
> Paul's (python) is at
>   http://www.speakeasy.org/~pj99/sgi/sendpatchset
> I don't recall where Greg's is (perl).

Greg's has been hacked at a bit to provide a little bit more of a user
interface, and is included in the Git source tree.  ("git-send-email").

When I added it, I made it use a few more perl modules, I think it
generally does the right thing.

It *does not* validate for things like Signed-off-by lines, though
admittedly, that wouldn't be hard ot add.

> 
> ---
> ~Randy
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 

-- 

Ryan Anderson
  sometimes Pug Majere

Re: recommended mail clients

[Jeff Garzik]

Jaco Kroon wrote:
> Lee Revell wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>>>long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
>>>>>typing; pastes are left untouched.
>>>>
>>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
>>>>this problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
>>>>patches and even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong
>>>>points to a serious usability/UI issue.
>>>>
>>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
>>>>developers at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem
>>>>so far) and hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> 
> 
> I would second that patch.

I would NAK such a patch.

Andrew Morton described a way to do it, some method using x cut buffers, 
IIRC.

The best thing to do is use a custom script, though.  Other mailers can 
be annoying as well, with regards to the References header, for example. 
  And pine is awful, encoding plain text as base64.

	Jeff

Re: recommended mail clients

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 14:18 -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > Lee Revell wrote:
> > 
> >>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 11:54:00 am 26 Dec 2005 Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>><snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> >>>>>long time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by
> >>>>>typing; pastes are left untouched.
> >>>>
> >>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> >>>>this problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> >>>>patches and even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong
> >>>>points to a serious usability/UI issue.
> >>>>
> >>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> >>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> >>>>developers at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem
> >>>>so far) and hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> > 
> > 
> > I would second that patch.
> 
> I would NAK such a patch.
> 
> Andrew Morton described a way to do it, some method using x cut buffers, 
> IIRC.
> 
> The best thing to do is use a custom script, though.  Other mailers can 
> be annoying as well, with regards to the References header, for example. 
>   And pine is awful, encoding plain text as base64.

For a maintainer who patch bombs LKML constantly a custom script is best
but for the casual contributor their mailer should just work.

The default Gnome and KDE mail clients work OK so why don't we just try
to get Thunderbird fixed or at least warn about it?  Casual contributors
are very likely to read SubmittingPatches.

I'm not trying to find the one true solution I'd just like to end the
constant low grade noise (and higher bug fix latency!) of "Please
resend, your patch is linewrapped" every few days.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > I would NAK such a patch.
> > 
> > Andrew Morton described a way to do it, some method using x cut buffers, 
> > IIRC.
> > 
> > The best thing to do is use a custom script, though.  Other mailers can 
> > be annoying as well, with regards to the References header, for example. 
> >   And pine is awful, encoding plain text as base64.
> 
> For a maintainer who patch bombs LKML constantly a custom script is best
> but for the casual contributor their mailer should just work.
> 
> The default Gnome and KDE mail clients work OK so why don't we just try
> to get Thunderbird fixed or at least warn about it?  Casual contributors
> are very likely to read SubmittingPatches.
> 
> I'm not trying to find the one true solution I'd just like to end the
> constant low grade noise (and higher bug fix latency!) of "Please
> resend, your patch is linewrapped" every few days.

Well, l-k has some rather extensive spam traps, right? What about
adding "if it contains patch, it should be well-formed patch" into the
list?

That way user would get bounce from the mailinglist, telling him how
not to damage the patches...

								Pavel
-- 
Thanks, Sharp!

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 12:09 -0600, Jason Munro wrote:
> Would the ability to pull the patch from
> the message body (assuming there was an agreed upon patch termination
> string) as a separate file/download be useful? 

No because patch(1) does that for you, it's one of the key features -
you can just save the message with a (non-mangled!) patch anywhere in
the text and the patch utility will do the right thing.  This is why
EOF, a .sig or whatever, before or after the patch is OK, *as long as
the mailer did not alter the patch itself*.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Jan Engelhardt]

>Maybe this is a stupid question but in terms of inline patches what exactly
>would be ideal behavior from a mail client for LKML patch submitters? What
>line lengths are expected to be maintained, preferred encodings, tabs vs.
>spaces, etc? I have noticed that some patch submitters append an EOF after
>the patch, while others do not.

That's because not provind #eof could potentially bring problems (not with 
the clever poster, though), e.g. in:

--- a/lalala
+++ b/lalala
@@ -123,456 +789,1012 @@
 contextline1
 contextline2
 contextline3
-remove
+added

My name
dash dash space
my signature


There are actually two problems in there.
The first is that some empty context lines are missing,
the second is that they have to have a leading space, too.
The #eof I am adding is basically so that you see when a patch is really 
ending, because there is also diff's -c option which you can tune the 
number of potentially empty lines.


Jan Engelhardt
-- 

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Alistair John Strachan]

On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> > On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
[snip]
> > >
> > > I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
> > > my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
> > > handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
> > > may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
> > > "as-is").
> >
> > Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time.
> > It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left
> > untouched.
>
> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has this
> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline patches and
> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a serious
> usability/UI issue.
>
> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla developers
> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) and
> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.

Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps AFTER you 
compose an email, not during composition. I've never understood how, or why 
this is useful to the end user, except for composing HTML emails (which 
should be banned anyway).

Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece of 
software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express (defaulting 
to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).

It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but convincing the 
Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is probably much harder.

-- 
Cheers,
Alistair.

'No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway.'
Third year Computer Science undergraduate.
1F2 55 South Clerk Street, Edinburgh, UK.

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> > > On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> [snip]
> > > >
> > > > I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
> > > > my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
> > > > handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
> > > > may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
> > > > "as-is").
> > >
> > > Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time.
> > > It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left
> > > untouched.
> >
> > It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has this
> > problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline patches and
> > even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a serious
> > usability/UI issue.
> >
> > Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> > SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla developers
> > at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) and
> > hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> 
> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps AFTER you 
> compose an email, not during composition. I've never understood how, or why 
> this is useful to the end user, except for composing HTML emails (which 
> should be banned anyway).
> 
> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece of 
> software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express (defaulting 
> to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
> 
> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but convincing the 
> Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is probably much harder.
> 

Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into "Preformat"
mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Michael Clark]

Lee Revell wrote:

>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>  
>
>>On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>[snip]
>>    
>>
>>>>>I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
>>>>>my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
>>>>>handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
>>>>>may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
>>>>>"as-is").
>>>>>          
>>>>>
This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.

>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time.
>>>>It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left
>>>>untouched.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has this
>>>problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline patches and
>>>even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a serious
>>>usability/UI issue.
>>>
>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla developers
>>>at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) and
>>>hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
>>>      
>>>
>>Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps AFTER you 
>>compose an email, not during composition. I've never understood how, or why 
>>this is useful to the end user, except for composing HTML emails (which 
>>should be banned anyway).
>>    
>>
Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in 'Preformat' mode.

>>Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece of 
>>software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express (defaulting 
>>to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
>>
>>It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but convincing the 
>>Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is probably much harder.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into "Preformat"
>mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
>  
>
Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
pasting patches into Thunderbird.

~mc

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Lee Revell]

On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 08:05 +0800, Michael Clark wrote:
> Lee Revell wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
> >>    
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>[snip]
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
> >>>>>my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
> >>>>>handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
> >>>>>may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
> >>>>>"as-is").
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
> 
> >>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time.
> >>>>It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left
> >>>>untouched.
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has this
> >>>problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline patches and
> >>>even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a serious
> >>>usability/UI issue.
> >>>
> >>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> >>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla developers
> >>>at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) and
> >>>hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps AFTER you 
> >>compose an email, not during composition. I've never understood how, or why 
> >>this is useful to the end user, except for composing HTML emails (which 
> >>should be banned anyway).
> >>    
> >>
> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in 'Preformat' mode.
> 
> >>Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece of 
> >>software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express (defaulting 
> >>to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
> >>
> >>It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but convincing the 
> >>Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is probably much harder.
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into "Preformat"
> >mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
> >  
> >
> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
> pasting patches into Thunderbird.

I did not realize it had this mode, apparently people aren't trying very
hard!  Forget my patch then.

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Peter Williams]

Michael Clark wrote:
> Lee Revell wrote:
> 
> 
>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>> 
>>
>>
>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
>>>>>>my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
>>>>>>handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
>>>>>>may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
>>>>>>"as-is").
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
> 
> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
> 
> 
>>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time.
>>>>>It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left
>>>>>untouched.
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has this
>>>>problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline patches and
>>>>even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a serious
>>>>usability/UI issue.
>>>>
>>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla developers
>>>>at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) and
>>>>hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>
>>>Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps AFTER you 
>>>compose an email, not during composition. I've never understood how, or why 
>>>this is useful to the end user, except for composing HTML emails (which 
>>>should be banned anyway).
>>>   
>>>
> 
> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in 'Preformat' mode.
> 
> 
>>>Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece of 
>>>software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express (defaulting 
>>>to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
>>>
>>>It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but convincing the 
>>>Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is probably much harder.
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>
>>Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into "Preformat"
>>mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
>> 
>>
> 
> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
> pasting patches into Thunderbird.

In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be 
continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything in 
the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?

-- 
Peter Williams                                   pwil3058@bigpond.net.au

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."
  -- Ambrose Bierce

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Michael Clark]

Peter Williams wrote:

> Michael Clark wrote:
>
>> Lee Revell wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>>>      
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>>>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
>>>>>>> ssh into
>>>>>>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
>>>>>>> "Normal"
>>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
>>>>>>> "as-is").
>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>
>>
>> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
>> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
>> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
>> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
>>
>>
>>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>>>> long time.
>>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
>>>>>> are left
>>>>>> untouched.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
>>>>> this
>>>>> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
>>>>> patches and
>>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
>>>>> serious
>>>>> usability/UI issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
>>>>> developers
>>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
>>>>> and
>>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
>>>>>    
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
>>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
>>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
>>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
>>>>  
>>>
>>
>> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
>> 'Preformat' mode.
>>
>>
>>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
>>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
>>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
>>>>
>>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
>>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
>>>> probably much harder.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
>>> "Preformat"
>>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
>> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
>
>
> In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
> continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
> in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
>
I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.

Note pasting from gnome terminal does not work (as it doesn't retain
tabs) nor does xclip work with Thunderbird for some reason. I use a
selection in emacs and paste that.

~mc
~mc

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Michael Clark wrote:
> >
> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
>
> Note pasting from gnome terminal does not work (as it doesn't retain
> tabs) nor does xclip work with Thunderbird for some reason. I use a
> selection in emacs and paste that.
>

Hmm, another reason I like evolution. It has an insert file, so all you
need to do is select "Preformat" and then select insert file, and it puts
the file into where the cursor is without any modifications.

I also use pine (like right now) and the Ctrl-R reads a file in too.

-- Steve

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:10:22 -0500 (EST) Steven Rostedt wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Michael Clark wrote:
> > >
> > I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> > X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> > message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> > Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> >
> > Note pasting from gnome terminal does not work (as it doesn't retain
> > tabs) nor does xclip work with Thunderbird for some reason. I use a
> > selection in emacs and paste that.
> >
> 
> Hmm, another reason I like evolution. It has an insert file, so all you
> need to do is select "Preformat" and then select insert file, and it puts
> the file into where the cursor is without any modifications.

sylpheed is always in 'preformat' mode then.  :)
All I have to do is "Insert" and select the file.

> I also use pine (like right now) and the Ctrl-R reads a file in too.

Yep.

---
~Randy

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Paolo Ornati]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:14:33 -0800
"Randy.Dunlap" <rdunlap@xenotime.net> wrote:

> > Hmm, another reason I like evolution. It has an insert file, so all you
> > need to do is select "Preformat" and then select insert file, and it puts
> > the file into where the cursor is without any modifications.
> 
> sylpheed is always in 'preformat' mode then.  :)
> All I have to do is "Insert" and select the file.

This depends on the sylpheed version / options...

Sylpheed-claws v2.0 has many options for wrapping:

	Wrap on input
	Wrap before sending
	Wrap quotation
	Wrap pasted text

And everything can be ON/OFF.

The only bad thing is that the "Insert File" function is affected by
"Wrap on input" option... so the best way to insert patches is to PASTE
them OR disable every wrapping option and wrap paragraphs with
"Ctrl+L" :)

-- 
	Paolo Ornati
	Linux 2.6.15-rc7-plugsched on x86_64

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:

> Peter Williams wrote:
> 
> > Michael Clark wrote:
> >
> >> Lee Revell wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
> >>>>  
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>>>    
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >>>>>>      
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>  
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
> >>>>>>> ssh into
> >>>>>>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
> >>>>>>> and it
> >>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
> >>>>>>> "Normal"
> >>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
> >>>>>>> "as-is").
> >>>>>>>        
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
> >> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
> >> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
> >> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> >>>>>> long time.
> >>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
> >>>>>> are left
> >>>>>> untouched.
> >>>>>>      
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> >>>>> patches and
> >>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
> >>>>> serious
> >>>>> usability/UI issue.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> >>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> >>>>> developers
> >>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> >>>>>    
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
> >>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
> >>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
> >>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
> >>>>  
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
> >> 'Preformat' mode.
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
> >>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
> >>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
> >>>>
> >>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
> >>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
> >>>> probably much harder.
> >>>>
> >>>>  
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
> >>> "Preformat"
> >>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
> >> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
> >
> >
> > In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
> > continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
> > in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
> >
> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.

so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.

> Note pasting from gnome terminal does not work (as it doesn't retain
> tabs) nor does xclip work with Thunderbird for some reason. I use a
> selection in emacs and paste that.

still not good.

---
~Randy

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Peter Williams]

Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:
> 
> 
>>Peter Williams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Michael Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
>>>>>>>>>ssh into
>>>>>>>>>my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
>>>>>>>>>and it
>>>>>>>>>handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
>>>>>>>>>"Normal"
>>>>>>>>>may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
>>>>>>>>>"as-is").
>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>
>>>>This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
>>>>thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
>>>>inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
>>>>least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>>>>>>long time.
>>>>>>>>It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
>>>>>>>>are left
>>>>>>>>untouched.
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
>>>>>>>patches and
>>>>>>>even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
>>>>>>>serious
>>>>>>>usability/UI issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>>>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
>>>>>>>developers
>>>>>>>at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
>>>>>>AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
>>>>>>understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
>>>>>>composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
>>>>'Preformat' mode.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
>>>>>>of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
>>>>>>(defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
>>>>>>convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
>>>>>>probably much harder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
>>>>>"Preformat"
>>>>>mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
>>>>pasting patches into Thunderbird.
>>>
>>>
>>>In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
>>>continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
>>>in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
>>>
>>
>>I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
>>X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
>>message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
>>Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> 
> 
> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.

Nor me.

> 
> 
>>Note pasting from gnome terminal does not work (as it doesn't retain
>>tabs) nor does xclip work with Thunderbird for some reason. I use a
>>selection in emacs and paste that.
> 
> 
> still not good.
> 
> ---
> ~Randy
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/


-- 
Peter Williams                                   pwil3058@bigpond.net.au

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."
  -- Ambrose Bierce

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Michael Clark]

Peter Williams wrote:

> Randy.Dunlap wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Peter Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Michael Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
>>>>>>>>>> ssh into
>>>>>>>>>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
>>>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
>>>>>>>>>> "Normal"
>>>>>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text
>>>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>>>> "as-is").
>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
>>>>> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping
>>>>> to the
>>>>> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch
>>>>> - at
>>>>> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>>>>>>> long time.
>>>>>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
>>>>>>>>> are left
>>>>>>>>> untouched.
>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
>>>>>>>> patches and
>>>>>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>> usability/UI issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>>>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
>>>>>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
>>>>>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
>>>>>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
>>>>> 'Preformat' mode.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
>>>>>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
>>>>>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping
>>>>>>> pastes).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
>>>>>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
>>>>>>> probably much harder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
>>>>>> "Preformat"
>>>>>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat'
>>>>> before
>>>>> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
>>>> continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
>>>> in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
>>> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
>>> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
>>> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
>>
>>
>>
>> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.
>
>
> Nor me.
>
It is a drop down box in the Compose window just below the subject field
on the left (intially says "Body Text").

If you haven't got the rich text Compose enabled (not sure how you
disable/enable this but it was an option in Mozilla Mail) you can hold
down shift when you click 'Write'.

I'm running Debian/Sid Thunderbird 1.0.7 BTW.

~mc

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:28:23 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:

> Peter Williams wrote:
> 
> > Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Peter Williams wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Michael Clark wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Lee Revell wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>     
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [snip]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
> >>>>>>>>>> ssh into
> >>>>>>>>>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
> >>>>>>>>>> and it
> >>>>>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
> >>>>>>>>>> "Normal"
> >>>>>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text
> >>>>>>>>>> files
> >>>>>>>>>> "as-is").
> >>>>>>>>>>       
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
> >>>>> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping
> >>>>> to the
> >>>>> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch
> >>>>> - at
> >>>>> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> >>>>>>>>> long time.
> >>>>>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
> >>>>>>>>> are left
> >>>>>>>>> untouched.
> >>>>>>>>>     
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> >>>>>>>> patches and
> >>>>>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
> >>>>>>>> serious
> >>>>>>>> usability/UI issue.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> >>>>>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> >>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> >>>>>>>>   
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
> >>>>>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
> >>>>>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
> >>>>>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
> >>>>> 'Preformat' mode.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
> >>>>>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
> >>>>>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping
> >>>>>>> pastes).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
> >>>>>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
> >>>>>>> probably much harder.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
> >>>>>> "Preformat"
> >>>>>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat'
> >>>>> before
> >>>>> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
> >>>> continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
> >>>> in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> >>> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> >>> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> >>> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.
> >
> >
> > Nor me.
> >
> It is a drop down box in the Compose window just below the subject field
> on the left (intially says "Body Text").

However, if one has disabled "Compose messages in HTML format",
that drop-down list does not show up.
So does this generate an HTML email, using <preformat> or <tt> etc.?
If so, still bad.  I'll test it to myself.

> If you haven't got the rich text Compose enabled (not sure how you
> disable/enable this but it was an option in Mozilla Mail) you can hold
> down shift when you click 'Write'.
> 
> I'm running Debian/Sid Thunderbird 1.0.7 BTW.


---
~Randy

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:33:09 -0800 Randy.Dunlap wrote:

[snip]

> > >>>>>>>>>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
> > >>>>>>>>>> ssh into
> > >>>>>>>>>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
> > >>>>>>>>>> and it
> > >>>>>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
> > >>>>>>>>>> "Normal"
> > >>>>>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text
> > >>>>>>>>>> files
> > >>>>>>>>>> "as-is").
> > >>>>>>>>>>       
> > >>>>> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
> > >>>>> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping
> > >>>>> to the
> > >>>>> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch
> > >>>>> - at
> > >>>>> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> > >>>>>>>>> long time.
> > >>>>>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
> > >>>>>>>>> are left
> > >>>>>>>>> untouched.
> > >>>>>>>>>     
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> > >>>>>>>> this
> > >>>>>>>> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> > >>>>>>>> patches and
> > >>>>>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
> > >>>>>>>> serious
> > >>>>>>>> usability/UI issue.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> > >>>>>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> > >>>>>>>> developers
> > >>>>>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> > >>>>>>>>   
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
> > >>>>>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
> > >>>>>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
> > >>>>>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
> > >>>>> 'Preformat' mode.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
> > >>>>>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
> > >>>>>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping
> > >>>>>>> pastes).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
> > >>>>>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
> > >>>>>>> probably much harder.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
> > >>>>>> "Preformat"
> > >>>>>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat'
> > >>>>> before
> > >>>>> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
> > >>>> continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
> > >>>> in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> > >>> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> > >>> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> > >>> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nor me.
> > >
> > It is a drop down box in the Compose window just below the subject field
> > on the left (intially says "Body Text").
> 
> However, if one has disabled "Compose messages in HTML format",
> that drop-down list does not show up.
> So does this generate an HTML email, using <preformat> or <tt> etc.?
> If so, still bad.  I'll test it to myself.

Looks good.  Preserves tabs and spaces.  Not HTML email.
Thanks.

> > If you haven't got the rich text Compose enabled (not sure how you
> > disable/enable this but it was an option in Mozilla Mail) you can hold
> > down shift when you click 'Write'.
> > 
> > I'm running Debian/Sid Thunderbird 1.0.7 BTW.


---
~Randy

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Stefan Smietanowski]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi.

>>>>>so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nor me.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It is a drop down box in the Compose window just below the subject field
>>>on the left (intially says "Body Text").
>>
>>However, if one has disabled "Compose messages in HTML format",
>>that drop-down list does not show up.
>>So does this generate an HTML email, using <preformat> or <tt> etc.?
>>If so, still bad.  I'll test it to myself.
> 
> 
> Looks good.  Preserves tabs and spaces.  Not HTML email.
> Thanks.

It's not perfect but ok. I'm running the FC4 version of Tbird 1.0.7 and
it works as it should with tabs and spaces everywhere if I don't sign
or encrypt the mail.

If I DO sign or encrypt the mail (using Enigmail+gpg) then the preformat
is effectively turned off and all tabs are converted to spaces, but
spaces are left as is.

How does the other mail clients handle it (or don't they handle signed
and/or encrypted mails?).

// Stefan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFDsj1TBrn2kJu9P78RAk/rAJ0br09iGrmMa1EdcqThUmZbfbfH+gCfUEEe
ihJpvwzdADr9bHSlopY6ipw=
=Smdd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Jan Engelhardt]

>>
>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I ssh into
>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine and it
>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu "Normal"
>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
>> "as-is").
>
>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long time. It 
>will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes are left 
>untouched.
>
>This satisfies Linus's demand that all patches be part of the email body and 
>not an attachment.


Do not always blame the MUA, because actually, the MTAs may do anything 
with the mail text. That's (among other reasons) why things like MIME 
attachments were invented, because they (their respective uuencoded or 
base64encoded "text") can be wrapped but does not change the 
decoded form.  - Something like that is in the pine doc.



Jan Engelhardt
-- 

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Jason Munro]

On 4:26:17 pm 26 Dec 2005 Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@linux01.gwdg.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>  I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
> >>  ssh into my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well
> >>  with pine and it handles things needed for LKML very well. (the
> >>  drop down menu "Normal" may be changed to "Preformat", which
> >>  allows of inserting text files "as-is").
> >
> > Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long
> > time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing;
> > pastes are left untouched.
> >
> > This satisfies Linus's demand that all patches be part of the email
> > body and not an attachment.
>
>
> Do not always blame the MUA, because actually, the MTAs may do
> anything with the mail text. That's (among other reasons) why things
> like MIME attachments were invented, because they (their respective
> uuencoded or base64encoded "text") can be wrapped but does not change
> the decoded form.  - Something like that is in the pine doc.

So which is preferable for someone handling inline patches. A properly
encoded message text that when decoded with a compliant client accurately
represents the original text (no whitespace mangling etc), or a message
text that is accurate in it's raw state but may be altered during transit?


\__  Jason Munro
 \__ jason@stdbev.com
  \__ http://hastymail.sourceforge.net/

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Pavel Machek]

On Út 27-12-05 09:20:15, Jason Munro wrote:
> On 4:26:17 pm 26 Dec 2005 Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@linux01.gwdg.de> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
> > >>  ssh into my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well
> > >>  with pine and it handles things needed for LKML very well. (the
> > >>  drop down menu "Normal" may be changed to "Preformat", which
> > >>  allows of inserting text files "as-is").
> > >
> > > Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a long
> > > time. It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing;
> > > pastes are left untouched.
> > >
> > > This satisfies Linus's demand that all patches be part of the email
> > > body and not an attachment.
> >
> >
> > Do not always blame the MUA, because actually, the MTAs may do
> > anything with the mail text. That's (among other reasons) why things
> > like MIME attachments were invented, because they (their respective
> > uuencoded or base64encoded "text") can be wrapped but does not change
> > the decoded form.  - Something like that is in the pine doc.
> 
> So which is preferable for someone handling inline patches. A properly
> encoded message text that when decoded with a compliant client accurately
> represents the original text (no whitespace mangling etc), or a message
> text that is accurate in it's raw state but may be altered during transit?

inlined text. I've never seen MTA mangling patch. Maybe 15 years ago...
									Pavel
-- 
Thanks, Sharp!

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Lee Revell]

On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 10:55 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Hi!
> 
> >>--- linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c.orig	2005-12-25
> >>22:21:32.000000000 +0200
> >>+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c	2005-12-26
> >>06:47:26.000000000 +0200
> > 
> > 
> > Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
> > to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...
> 
> Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> mutt, any other recomendations?
> 
> I've mailed off the patch now using mailx but that isn't going to be an
> option in the long run.

Um, mozilla is open source - why doesn't someone just fix it, or at
least report the bug?

Lee

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:05:21 -0500 Lee Revell wrote:

> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 10:55 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > Pavel Machek wrote:
> > > Hi!
> > 
> > >>--- linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c.orig	2005-12-25
> > >>22:21:32.000000000 +0200
> > >>+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/agp/ati-agp.c	2005-12-26
> > >>06:47:26.000000000 +0200
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Your email client did some nasty word wrapping here. I guess the way
> > > to proceed is try #3, this time add my ACK and Cc: akpm...
> > 
> > Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> > just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> > mutt, any other recomendations?
> > 
> > I've mailed off the patch now using mailx but that isn't going to be an
> > option in the long run.
> 
> Um, mozilla is open source - why doesn't someone just fix it, or at
> least report the bug?

It's been done afaik (at least in thunderbird bugzilla).
The answer was something like "just use a plug-in (external) editor."
I tried that, but it (tbird) still truncates trailing whitespace iirc.
They seem to think that it's not a problem.  :(

---
~Randy

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Bob Copeland]

> It's been done afaik (at least in thunderbird bugzilla).
> The answer was something like "just use a plug-in (external) editor."
> I tried that, but it (tbird) still truncates trailing whitespace iirc.
> They seem to think that it's not a problem.  :(

Incidentally, while using mutt would be so much better, this is a
handy technique for those trapped behind a firewall with http proxy
who don't want to draw the ire of sysadmins by tunnelling.  Thought
I'd share since I did it expressly for sending patches:

1. Set up webmail.
2. Hack webmail to use wrap="off" on the textareas.
3. Use mosex or similar to have $YOUR_X11_EDITOR for editing textareas.

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Pete Zaitcev]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:55:33 +0200, Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za> wrote:

> Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> mutt, any other recomendations?

Mutt requires a terminal, which is not always convenient (e.g. the
copy-paste is not possible short of saving to a file, panels are infested
by similar icons). It is the ultimate text-mode client though.

I picked the Sylpheed from DaveM. It is unusually customizeable, for
a GUI client. It can corrupt patches if they have non-ASCII characters,
but that's something unavoidable, until the world switches to UTF-8
at least. Other than that, it has no discernable vices regarding
the whitespace mangling or line wrapping.

-- Pete

Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

[Tomasz Torcz]

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On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 07:28:49PM -0800, Pete Zaitcev wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:55:33 +0200, Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za> wrote:
> 
> > Right, which clients is recommended for this type of work - mozilla is
> > just not doing it for me any more.  I've heard some decent things about
> > mutt, any other recomendations?
> 
> Mutt requires a terminal, which is not always convenient (e.g. the
> copy-paste is not possible short of saving to a file, panels are infested
> by similar icons). It is the ultimate text-mode client though.

  That's the matter with $EDITOR, right?

  Mutt also quotes MIME attachments when replying.

-- 
Tomasz Torcz                "Funeral in the morning, IDE hacking
zdzichu@irc.-nie.spam-.pl    in the afternoon and evening." - Alan Cox


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