[patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

this patchset (for the 2.6.16 tree) consists of two patches:

  gcc-no-forced-inlining.patch
  gcc-unit-at-a-time.patch

the purpose of these patches is to reduce the kernel's .text size, in 
particular if CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE is specified. The effect of 
the patches on x86 is:

    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
 3286166  869852  387260 4543278  45532e vmlinux-orig
 3194123  955168  387260 4536551  4538e7 vmlinux-inline
 3119495  884960  387748 4392203  43050b vmlinux-inline+units
  437271   77646   32192  547109   85925 vmlinux-tiny-orig
  452694   77646   32192  562532   89564 vmlinux-tiny-inline
  431891   77422   32128  541441   84301 vmlinux-tiny-inline+units

i.e. a 5.3% .text reduction (!) with a larger .config, and a 1.2% .text 
reduction with a smaller .config.

i've also done test-builds with CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE disabled:

   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
4080998  870384  387260 5338642  517612 vmlinux-speed-orig
4084421  872024  387260 5343705  5189d9 vmlinux-speed-inline
4010957  834048  387748 5232753  4fd871 vmlinux-speed-inline+units

so the more flexible inlining did not result in many changes [which is 
good, we want gcc to inline those in the optimized-for-speed case], but 
unit-at-a-time optimization resulted in smaller code - very likely 
meaning speed advantages as well.

unit-at-a-time still increases the kernel stack footprint somewhat (by 
about 5% in the CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE case), but not by the insane degree 
gcc3 used to, which prompted the original -fno-unit-at-a-time addition.

so i think the combination of the two patches is a win both for small 
and for large systems. In fact the 5.3% .text reduction for embedded 
kernels is very significant.

the patches are against -git, and were test-built and test-booted on 
x86, using gcc 4.0.2.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> this patchset (for the 2.6.16 tree) consists of two patches:
> 
>   gcc-no-forced-inlining.patch
>   gcc-unit-at-a-time.patch

Why do you mix the two up? I'd assume they are independent, and if they 
aren't, please explain why?

The forced inlining is not just a good idea. Several versions of gcc would 
NOT COMPILE the kernel without it. The fact that it works with your 
configurations and your particular compiler version has absolutely ZERO 
relevance.

Gcc has had horrible mistakes in inlining functions. Inlining too much, 
and quite often, not inlining things that absolutely _have_ to be inlined. 
Trivial things that inline to an instruction or two, but that look 
complicated because they have a big switch-statement that just happens to 
be known at compile-time.

And not inlining them not only results in horribly bad code (dynamic tests 
for something that should be static), but also results in link errors when 
cases that should be statically unreachable suddenly become reachable 
after all.

So the fact that your gcc-4.x version happens to get things right for your 
case in no way means that you can do this in general.

Also, the inlining patch apparently makes code larger in some cases, so 
it's not even a unconditional win.

What's the effect of _just_ the "unit-at-a-time" thing which we can (and 
you did) much more easily make gcc-version-dependent?

			Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> 
> The forced inlining is not just a good idea. Several versions of gcc would 
> NOT COMPILE the kernel without it.

yup that's why the patch only does it for gcc4, in which the inlining
heuristics finally got rewritten to something that seems to resemble
sanity...

> Also, the inlining patch apparently makes code larger in some cases, so 
> it's not even a unconditional win.

.... as long as you give the inlining algorithm enough information.
-fno-unit-at-a-time prevents gcc from having the information, and the
decisions it makes are then less optimal... 

(unit-at-a-time allows gcc to look at the entire .c file, eg things like
number of callers etc etc, disabling that tells gcc to do the .c file as
single pass top-to-bottom only)

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
> yup that's why the patch only does it for gcc4, in which the inlining
> heuristics finally got rewritten to something that seems to resemble
> sanity...

Is that actually true of all gcc4 versions? I seem to remember gcc-4.0 
being a real stinker.

> > Also, the inlining patch apparently makes code larger in some cases, 
> > so it's not even a unconditional win.
> 
> .... as long as you give the inlining algorithm enough information. 
> -fno-unit-at-a-time prevents gcc from having the information, and the 
> decisions it makes are then less optimal...
> 
> (unit-at-a-time allows gcc to look at the entire .c file, eg things like
> number of callers etc etc, disabling that tells gcc to do the .c file as
> single pass top-to-bottom only)

I'd still prefer to see numbers with -funit-at-a-time only. I think it's 
an independent knob, and I'd be much less worried about that, because we 
do know that unit-at-a-time has been enabled on x86-64 for a long time 
("forever"). So that's less of a change, I feel. 

			Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 13:02 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > 
> > yup that's why the patch only does it for gcc4, in which the inlining
> > heuristics finally got rewritten to something that seems to resemble
> > sanity...
> 
> Is that actually true of all gcc4 versions? I seem to remember gcc-4.0 
> being a real stinker.

it is... if you disable unit-at-a-time for sure.
But I'm not entirely sure when this got in, if it was 4.0 or 4.1

> > (unit-at-a-time allows gcc to look at the entire .c file, eg things like
> > number of callers etc etc, disabling that tells gcc to do the .c file as
> > single pass top-to-bottom only)
> 
> I'd still prefer to see numbers with -funit-at-a-time only. I think it's 
> an independent knob, and I'd be much less worried about that, because we 
> do know that unit-at-a-time has been enabled on x86-64 for a long time 
> ("forever"). So that's less of a change, I feel. 

the only effect I expect is more inlining actually, since we on the one
hand tie gcc's hands via the forced inline, and one the other hand now
give it more room to inline more. But yeah it's worth to look at for
sure, even if it is to see it's getting bigger ;) 

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > 
> > yup that's why the patch only does it for gcc4, in which the inlining
> > heuristics finally got rewritten to something that seems to resemble
> > sanity...
> 
> Is that actually true of all gcc4 versions? I seem to remember gcc-4.0 
> being a real stinker.

all my tests were with gcc 4.0.2.

> > > Also, the inlining patch apparently makes code larger in some cases, 
> > > so it's not even a unconditional win.
> > 
> > .... as long as you give the inlining algorithm enough information. 
> > -fno-unit-at-a-time prevents gcc from having the information, and the 
> > decisions it makes are then less optimal...
> > 
> > (unit-at-a-time allows gcc to look at the entire .c file, eg things like
> > number of callers etc etc, disabling that tells gcc to do the .c file as
> > single pass top-to-bottom only)
> 
> I'd still prefer to see numbers with -funit-at-a-time only. I think 
> it's an independent knob, and I'd be much less worried about that, 
> because we do know that unit-at-a-time has been enabled on x86-64 for 
> a long time ("forever"). So that's less of a change, I feel.

the two patches are completely independent, and the only reason i did 
them together was because i was looking at .text size in general and 
these were the two things that made a difference. Also, the inlining was 
a loss in one of the .config's, unless combined with the wider-scope 
unit-at-a-time optimization.

(there's a third thing that i was also playing with, -ffunction-sections 
and -fdata-sections, but those dont seem to be reliable on the binutils 
side yet.)

here are the isolated unit-at-a-time numbers as well:

   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
  3286166  869852  387260 4543278  45532e vmlinux-orig
  3259928  833176  387748 4480852  445f54 vmlinux-units         -0.8%
  3194123  955168  387260 4536551  4538e7 vmlinux-inline        -2.9%
  3119495  884960  387748 4392203  43050b vmlinux-inline+units  -5.3%

so both inlining and unit-at-a-time is a win independently [although 
inlining alone does bloat .data], but applied together they bring an 
additional 1.6% of .text savings. All builds done with:

   gcc version 4.0.2 20051109 (Red Hat 4.0.2-6)

how about giving the inlining stuff some more exposure in -mm (if it's 
fine with Andrew), to check for any regressions? I'd suggest the same 
for the unit-at-a-time thing too, in any case.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:

> (there's a third thing that i was also playing with, -ffunction-sections 
> and -fdata-sections, but those dont seem to be reliable on the binutils 
> side yet.)
> 
> here are the isolated unit-at-a-time numbers as well:
> 
>    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
>   3286166  869852  387260 4543278  45532e vmlinux-orig
>   3259928  833176  387748 4480852  445f54 vmlinux-units         -0.8%
>   3194123  955168  387260 4536551  4538e7 vmlinux-inline        -2.9%
>   3119495  884960  387748 4392203  43050b vmlinux-inline+units  -5.3%
> 
> so both inlining and unit-at-a-time is a win independently [although 
> inlining alone does bloat .data], but applied together they bring an 
> additional 1.6% of .text savings. All builds done with:
> 
>    gcc version 4.0.2 20051109 (Red Hat 4.0.2-6)
> 
> how about giving the inlining stuff some more exposure in -mm (if it's 
> fine with Andrew), to check for any regressions? I'd suggest the same 
> for the unit-at-a-time thing too, in any case.

another thing: i wanted to decrease the size of -Os 
(CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE) kernels, which e.g. Fedora uses too (to 
keep the icache footprint down).

I think gcc should arguably not be forced to inline things when doing 
-Os, and it's also expected to mess up much less than when optimizing 
for speed. So maybe forced inlining should be dependent on 
!CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE?

I.e. like the patch below?

	Ingo

----------------->
Subject: allow gcc4 to control inlining

allow gcc4 compilers to decide what to inline and what not - instead
of the kernel forcing gcc to inline all the time.

Signed-off-by: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
Signed-off-by: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>
----

 include/linux/compiler-gcc4.h |   13 +++++++++----
 1 files changed, 9 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

Index: linux-gcc.q/include/linux/compiler-gcc4.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/linux/compiler-gcc4.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/linux/compiler-gcc4.h
@@ -3,14 +3,19 @@
 /* These definitions are for GCC v4.x.  */
 #include <linux/compiler-gcc.h>
 
-#define inline			inline		__attribute__((always_inline))
-#define __inline__		__inline__	__attribute__((always_inline))
-#define __inline		__inline	__attribute__((always_inline))
+
+#ifndef CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE
+# define inline			inline		__attribute__((always_inline))
+# define __inline__		__inline__	__attribute__((always_inline))
+# define __inline		__inline	__attribute__((always_inline))
+#endif
+
 #define __deprecated		__attribute__((deprecated))
 #define __attribute_used__	__attribute__((__used__))
 #define __attribute_pure__	__attribute__((pure))
 #define __attribute_const__	__attribute__((__const__))
-#define  noinline		__attribute__((noinline))
+#define noinline		__attribute__((noinline))
+#define __always_inline		inline __attribute__((always_inline))
 #define __must_check 		__attribute__((warn_unused_result))
 #define __compiler_offsetof(a,b) __builtin_offsetof(a,b)
 

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:

>>    gcc version 4.0.2 20051109 (Red Hat 4.0.2-6)

> another thing: i wanted to decrease the size of -Os 
> (CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE) kernels, which e.g. Fedora uses too (to 
> keep the icache footprint down).

Remember the above gcc miscompiles the x86-32 kernel with -Os:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=173764
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl> wrote:

> Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:
> 
> >>    gcc version 4.0.2 20051109 (Red Hat 4.0.2-6)
> 
> > another thing: i wanted to decrease the size of -Os 
> > (CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE) kernels, which e.g. Fedora uses too (to 
> > keep the icache footprint down).
> 
> Remember the above gcc miscompiles the x86-32 kernel with -Os:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=173764

i'm not sure what the point is. There was no sudden rush of -Os related 
bugs when Fedora switched to it for the kernel, and the 35% code-size 
savings were certainly worth it in terms of icache footprint. Yes, -Os 
is a major change for how the compiler works, and the kernel is a major 
piece of software.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 08:41:07AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
 > 
 > * Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl> wrote:
 > 
 > > Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:
 > > 
 > > >>    gcc version 4.0.2 20051109 (Red Hat 4.0.2-6)
 > > 
 > > > another thing: i wanted to decrease the size of -Os 
 > > > (CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE) kernels, which e.g. Fedora uses too (to 
 > > > keep the icache footprint down).
 > > 
 > > Remember the above gcc miscompiles the x86-32 kernel with -Os:
 > > 
 > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=173764
 > 
 > i'm not sure what the point is. There was no sudden rush of -Os related 
 > bugs when Fedora switched to it for the kernel, and the 35% code-size 
 > savings were certainly worth it in terms of icache footprint. Yes, -Os 
 > is a major change for how the compiler works, and the kernel is a major 
 > piece of software.

The bug referenced is also fixed in gcc 4.1

		Dave

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:

>> Remember the above gcc miscompiles the x86-32 kernel with -Os:
>> 
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=173764
>
> i'm not sure what the point is.

Nothing special, just a side note.

> There was no sudden rush of -Os related 
> bugs when Fedora switched to it for the kernel,

I found 'ip route add' was broken with -Os. I use FC4s but the kernel
is usually a mutated version of the Linus' tree so I can't check it.

> and the 35% code-size 
> savings were certainly worth it in terms of icache footprint.

Sure.

Good to hear gcc 4.1 is fixed.
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andrew Morton]

Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
>
> I think gcc should arguably not be forced to inline things when doing 
> -Os, and it's also expected to mess up much less than when optimizing 
> for speed. So maybe forced inlining should be dependent on 
> !CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE?

When it comes to inlining I just don't trust gcc as far as I can spit it. 
We're putting the kernel at the mercy of future random brainfarts and bugs
from the gcc guys.  It would be better and safer IMO to continue to force
`inline' to have strict and sane semamtics, and to simply be vigilant about
our use of it.

IOW: I'd prefer that we be the ones who specify which functions are going
to be inlined and which ones are not.


If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have (yet
more) incorrect inlining.  We should hunt those down and fix them.  We did
quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a script which
would identify which functions are a candidate for uninlining?

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:

> Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
> >
> > I think gcc should arguably not be forced to inline things when doing 
> > -Os, and it's also expected to mess up much less than when optimizing 
> > for speed. So maybe forced inlining should be dependent on 
> > !CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE?
> 
> When it comes to inlining I just don't trust gcc as far as I can spit 
> it.  We're putting the kernel at the mercy of future random brainfarts 
> and bugs from the gcc guys.  It would be better and safer IMO to 
> continue to force `inline' to have strict and sane semamtics, and to 
> simply be vigilant about our use of it.

i think there's quite an attitude here - we are at the mercy of "gcc 
brainfarts" anyway, and users are at the mercy of "kernel brainfarts" 
just as much. Should users disable swapping and trash-talk it just 
because the Linux kernel used to have a poor VM? (And the gcc folks are 
certainly listening - it's not like they were unwilling to fix stuff, 
they simply had their own decade-old technological legacies that made 
certain seemingly random problems much harder to attack. E.g. -Os has 
recently been improved quite significantly in to-be-gcc-4.2.)

at least let us allow gcc do it in the CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE case, 
-Os means "optimize for space" - no ifs and when, it's a _very_ clear 
and definite goal. I dont think there's much space for gcc to mess up 
there, it's a mostly binary decision: either the inlining of a 
particular function saves space, or not.

in the other case, when optimizing for speed, the decisions are alot 
less clear, and gcc has arguably alot more leeway to mess up.

also, there's a fundamental conflict of 'speed vs. performance' here, 
for a certain boundary region. For the extremes, very small and very 
large functions, the decision is clear, but if e.g. a CPU has tons of 
cache, it might prefer more agressive inlining than if it doesnt. So 
it's not like we can do it in a fully static manner.

> If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have 
> (yet more) incorrect inlining. We should hunt those down and fix them.  
> We did quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a 
> script which would identify which functions are a candidate for 
> uninlining?

this is going to be a never ending battle, and it's not about peanuts 
either: we are talking about 5% of .text space here, on a .config that 
carries most of the important subsystems and drivers. Do we really want 
to take on this battle and fight it for 30,000+ kernel functions - when 
gcc today can arguably do a _better_ job than what we attempted to do 
manually for years? We went to great trouble going to BK just to make 
development easier - shouldnt we let a fully open-source tool like gcc 
make our lives easier and not worry about details like that? Whether to 
inline or not _is_ a mostly thoughtless work with almost zero intellect 
in it. I'd rather trust gcc do it than some script doing the same much 
worse.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Horst von Brand]

Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
> * Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:
> > Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
> > > I think gcc should arguably not be forced to inline things when doing 
> > > -Os, and it's also expected to mess up much less than when optimizing 
> > > for speed. So maybe forced inlining should be dependent on 
> > > !CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE?

> > When it comes to inlining I just don't trust gcc as far as I can spit 
> > it.  We're putting the kernel at the mercy of future random brainfarts 
> > and bugs from the gcc guys.  It would be better and safer IMO to 
> > continue to force `inline' to have strict and sane semamtics, and to 
> > simply be vigilant about our use of it.

> i think there's quite an attitude here - we are at the mercy of "gcc 
> brainfarts" anyway, and users are at the mercy of "kernel brainfarts" 
> just as much. Should users disable swapping and trash-talk it just 
> because the Linux kernel used to have a poor VM? (And the gcc folks are 
> certainly listening - it's not like they were unwilling to fix stuff, 
> they simply had their own decade-old technological legacies that made 
> certain seemingly random problems much harder to attack. E.g. -Os has 
> recently been improved quite significantly in to-be-gcc-4.2.)

Also, we do trust gcc not to screw up on lots of other stuff. I.e., we
trust it to use registers wisely (register anyone?), to set up sane
counting loops and related array handling (noone is using pointers to
traverse arrays "for speed" anymore), and to select the best code sequence
for the machine at hand in lots of cases, ... And not only for the kernel,
for the whole userspace too!

Sure, this is a large change, and it might be warranted to place it under
CONFIG_NEW_COMPILER_OPTIONS (Marked experimental, high explosive, etc if it
makes you too uneasy).
-- 
Dr. Horst H. von Brand                   User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 08:32:59AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:
> 
> > Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think gcc should arguably not be forced to inline things when doing 
> > > -Os, and it's also expected to mess up much less than when optimizing 
> > > for speed. So maybe forced inlining should be dependent on 
> > > !CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE?
> > 
> > When it comes to inlining I just don't trust gcc as far as I can spit 
> > it.  We're putting the kernel at the mercy of future random brainfarts 
> > and bugs from the gcc guys.  It would be better and safer IMO to 
> > continue to force `inline' to have strict and sane semamtics, and to 
> > simply be vigilant about our use of it.
> 
> i think there's quite an attitude here - we are at the mercy of "gcc 
> brainfarts" anyway, and users are at the mercy of "kernel brainfarts" 
> just as much. Should users disable swapping and trash-talk it just 
> because the Linux kernel used to have a poor VM? (And the gcc folks are 
> certainly listening - it's not like they were unwilling to fix stuff, 
> they simply had their own decade-old technological legacies that made 
> certain seemingly random problems much harder to attack. E.g. -Os has 
> recently been improved quite significantly in to-be-gcc-4.2.)
>...
> also, there's a fundamental conflict of 'speed vs. performance' here, 
> for a certain boundary region. For the extremes, very small and very 
> large functions, the decision is clear, but if e.g. a CPU has tons of 
> cache, it might prefer more agressive inlining than if it doesnt. So 
> it's not like we can do it in a fully static manner.
>...

I'd formulate it the other way round as Andrew:

We should force gcc to inline code where we do know best
("static inline"s in header files) and leave the decision
to gcc in the cases where gcc should know best controlled
by some high-level knobs like -Os/-O2.

gcc simply needs to be forced to inline in some cases in which we really 
need inlining, but in all other cases gcc knows best and we can trust 
gcc to make the right decision.

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:
> > 
> > When it comes to inlining I just don't trust gcc as far as I can spit 
> > it.  We're putting the kernel at the mercy of future random brainfarts 
> > and bugs from the gcc guys.  It would be better and safer IMO to 
> > continue to force `inline' to have strict and sane semamtics, and to 
> > simply be vigilant about our use of it.
> 
> i think there's quite an attitude here - we are at the mercy of "gcc 
> brainfarts" anyway, and users are at the mercy of "kernel brainfarts" 
> just as much.

There's a huge difference here. The gcc people very much have a "Oh, we 
changed old documented behaviour - live with it" attitude, together with 
"That was a gcc extension, not part of the C language, so when we change 
how gcc behaves, it's _your_ problem" approach.

At least they used to. 

So yes, there's a huge attitude difference. The gcc people have a BAD 
attitude. When the meaning of "inline" changed (from a "inline this" to 
"hey, it's a hint"), the gcc people never EVER said "sorry". They 
effectively said "screw you".

I know this is why I don't trust gcc wrt inlining. It's not so much about 
any technical issues, as about the fact that the kernel tends to be a lot 
heavier user of gcc features than most programs, and has correctness 
issues with them, AND THE GCC PEOPLE SIMPLY DON'T CARE.

Comparing it to the kernel is ludicrous. We care about user-space 
interfaces to an insane degree. We go to extreme lengths to maintain even 
badly designed or unintentional interfaces. Breaking user programs simply 
isn't acceptable. We're _not_ like the gcc developers. We know that 
people use old binaries for years and years, and that making a new 
release doesn't mean that you can just throw that out. You can trust us.

Maybe gcc development has changed. Maybe it hasn't.

THAT is what makes me worry. I don't know if this is why Andrew doesn't 
trust inlining, but I suspect it has similar roots. Not trusting it 
because we haven't been able to trust the people behind it. No heads-up, 
no warnings, no discussions. Just a "screw you, things changed, your 
usage doesn't matter, and we're not even interested in listening to you 
or telling you why things changed".

There have been situations where documented gcc semantics changed, and 
instead of saying "sorry", the gcc people changed the documentation. What 
the hell is the point of documented semantics if you can't depend on them 
anyway?

One thing we could do: I think modern gcc's at least have an option to 
warn when they don't inline something. It might make sense to just enable 
that warning, and see _which_ functions -Os and -funit-at-a-time say are 
too large to be inlined.

Maybe the right thing to do is to just heed that warning, and remove such 
functions from header files and make them no-inline? That way we get the 
size fixes _regardless_ of any compiler options.

				Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> 
> One thing we could do: I think modern gcc's at least have an option to 
> warn when they don't inline something. It might make sense to just enable 
> that warning, and see _which_ functions -Os and -funit-at-a-time say are 
> too large to be inlined.


with -Os gcc gets a bit picky and warns a LOT; with -O2... you get the
following fixes (all huge functions)


diff -purN linux-org/drivers/acpi/ec.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/acpi/ec.c
--- linux-org/drivers/acpi/ec.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/acpi/ec.c	2005-12-29 19:21:37.000000000 +0100
@@ -153,7 +153,7 @@ static int acpi_ec_polling_mode = EC_POL
                              Transaction Management
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
 
-static inline u32 acpi_ec_read_status(union acpi_ec *ec)
+static u32 acpi_ec_read_status(union acpi_ec *ec)
 {
 	u32 status = 0;
 
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/bluetooth/hci_bcsp.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/bluetooth/hci_bcsp.c
--- linux-org/drivers/bluetooth/hci_bcsp.c	2005-12-22 19:54:33.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/bluetooth/hci_bcsp.c	2005-12-29 19:23:21.000000000 +0100
@@ -494,7 +494,7 @@ static inline void bcsp_unslip_one_byte(
 	}
 }
 
-static inline void bcsp_complete_rx_pkt(struct hci_uart *hu)
+static void bcsp_complete_rx_pkt(struct hci_uart *hu)
 {
 	struct bcsp_struct *bcsp = hu->priv;
 	int pass_up;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/char/drm/r128_state.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/drm/r128_state.c
--- linux-org/drivers/char/drm/r128_state.c	2005-12-22 19:54:33.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/char/drm/r128_state.c	2005-12-29 19:24:59.000000000 +0100
@@ -220,7 +220,7 @@ static __inline__ void r128_emit_tex1(dr
 	ADVANCE_RING();
 }
 
-static __inline__ void r128_emit_state(drm_r128_private_t * dev_priv)
+static void r128_emit_state(drm_r128_private_t * dev_priv)
 {
 	drm_r128_sarea_t *sarea_priv = dev_priv->sarea_priv;
 	unsigned int dirty = sarea_priv->dirty;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/avm_pci.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/avm_pci.c
--- linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/avm_pci.c	2005-12-22 19:54:33.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/avm_pci.c	2005-12-29 19:29:31.000000000 +0100
@@ -358,7 +358,7 @@ hdlc_fill_fifo(struct BCState *bcs)
 	}
 }
 
-static inline void
+static void
 HDLC_irq(struct BCState *bcs, u_int stat) {
 	int len;
 	struct sk_buff *skb;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/diva.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/diva.c
--- linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/diva.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/diva.c	2005-12-29 19:29:42.000000000 +0100
@@ -476,7 +476,7 @@ Memhscx_fill_fifo(struct BCState *bcs)
 	}
 }
 
-static inline void
+static void
 Memhscx_interrupt(struct IsdnCardState *cs, u_char val, u_char hscx)
 {
 	u_char r;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/hscx_irq.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/hscx_irq.c
--- linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/hscx_irq.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/hscx_irq.c	2005-12-29 19:30:21.000000000 +0100
@@ -119,7 +119,7 @@ hscx_fill_fifo(struct BCState *bcs)
 	}
 }
 
-static inline void
+static void
 hscx_interrupt(struct IsdnCardState *cs, u_char val, u_char hscx)
 {
 	u_char r;
@@ -221,7 +221,7 @@ hscx_interrupt(struct IsdnCardState *cs,
 	}
 }
 
-static inline void
+static void
 hscx_int_main(struct IsdnCardState *cs, u_char val)
 {
 
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/jade_irq.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/jade_irq.c
--- linux-org/drivers/isdn/hisax/jade_irq.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/isdn/hisax/jade_irq.c	2005-12-29 19:30:07.000000000 +0100
@@ -110,7 +110,7 @@ jade_fill_fifo(struct BCState *bcs)
 }
 
 
-static inline void
+static void
 jade_interrupt(struct IsdnCardState *cs, u_char val, u_char jade)
 {
 	u_char r;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/md/dm-crypt.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/md/dm-crypt.c
--- linux-org/drivers/md/dm-crypt.c	2005-12-22 19:54:33.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/md/dm-crypt.c	2005-12-29 19:28:58.000000000 +0100
@@ -228,7 +228,7 @@ static struct crypt_iv_operations crypt_
 };
 
 
-static inline int
+static int
 crypt_convert_scatterlist(struct crypt_config *cc, struct scatterlist *out,
                           struct scatterlist *in, unsigned int length,
                           int write, sector_t sector)
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/media/video/cx25840/cx25840-audio.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/media/video/cx25840/cx25840-audio.c
--- linux-org/drivers/media/video/cx25840/cx25840-audio.c	2005-12-22 19:54:33.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/media/video/cx25840/cx25840-audio.c	2005-12-29 19:31:11.000000000 +0100
@@ -23,7 +23,7 @@
 
 #include "cx25840.h"
 
-inline static int set_audclk_freq(struct i2c_client *client,
+static int set_audclk_freq(struct i2c_client *client,
 				 enum v4l2_audio_clock_freq freq)
 {
 	struct cx25840_state *state = i2c_get_clientdata(client);
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/media/video/tvp5150.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/media/video/tvp5150.c
--- linux-org/drivers/media/video/tvp5150.c	2005-12-22 19:54:33.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/media/video/tvp5150.c	2005-12-29 19:31:41.000000000 +0100
@@ -87,7 +87,7 @@ struct tvp5150 {
 	int sat;
 };
 
-static inline int tvp5150_read(struct i2c_client *c, unsigned char addr)
+static int tvp5150_read(struct i2c_client *c, unsigned char addr)
 {
 	unsigned char buffer[1];
 	int rc;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/mtd/nand/diskonchip.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/mtd/nand/diskonchip.c
--- linux-org/drivers/mtd/nand/diskonchip.c	2005-12-22 19:54:34.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/mtd/nand/diskonchip.c	2005-12-29 19:31:26.000000000 +0100
@@ -1506,7 +1506,7 @@ static inline int __init doc2001plus_ini
 	return 1;
 }
 
-static inline int __init doc_probe(unsigned long physadr)
+static int __init doc_probe(unsigned long physadr)
 {
 	unsigned char ChipID;
 	struct mtd_info *mtd;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/net/wireless/ipw2100.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/net/wireless/ipw2100.c
--- linux-org/drivers/net/wireless/ipw2100.c	2005-12-22 19:54:34.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/net/wireless/ipw2100.c	2005-12-29 19:33:50.000000000 +0100
@@ -2346,7 +2346,7 @@ static inline void ipw2100_corruption_de
 	schedule_reset(priv);
 }
 
-static inline void isr_rx(struct ipw2100_priv *priv, int i,
+static void isr_rx(struct ipw2100_priv *priv, int i,
 			  struct ieee80211_rx_stats *stats)
 {
 	struct ipw2100_status *status = &priv->status_queue.drv[i];
@@ -2481,7 +2481,7 @@ static inline int ipw2100_corruption_che
  * The WRITE index is cached in the variable 'priv->rx_queue.next'.
  *
  */
-static inline void __ipw2100_rx_process(struct ipw2100_priv *priv)
+static void __ipw2100_rx_process(struct ipw2100_priv *priv)
 {
 	struct ipw2100_bd_queue *rxq = &priv->rx_queue;
 	struct ipw2100_status_queue *sq = &priv->status_queue;
@@ -2634,7 +2634,7 @@ static inline void __ipw2100_rx_process(
  * for use by future command and data packets.
  *
  */
-static inline int __ipw2100_tx_process(struct ipw2100_priv *priv)
+static int __ipw2100_tx_process(struct ipw2100_priv *priv)
 {
 	struct ipw2100_bd_queue *txq = &priv->tx_queue;
 	struct ipw2100_bd *tbd;
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/scsi/iscsi_tcp.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/scsi/iscsi_tcp.c
--- linux-org/drivers/scsi/iscsi_tcp.c	2005-12-22 19:54:34.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/scsi/iscsi_tcp.c	2005-12-29 19:32:02.000000000 +0100
@@ -1437,7 +1437,7 @@ iscsi_buf_data_digest_update(struct iscs
 	}
 }
 
-static inline int
+static int
 iscsi_digest_final_send(struct iscsi_conn *conn, struct iscsi_cmd_task *ctask,
 			struct iscsi_buf *buf, uint32_t *digest, int final)
 {
diff -purN linux-org/drivers/video/matrox/matroxfb_maven.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/video/matrox/matroxfb_maven.c
--- linux-org/drivers/video/matrox/matroxfb_maven.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/drivers/video/matrox/matroxfb_maven.c	2005-12-29 19:34:05.000000000 +0100
@@ -968,7 +968,7 @@ static inline int maven_compute_timming(
 	return 0;
 }
 
-static inline int maven_program_timming(struct maven_data* md,
+static int maven_program_timming(struct maven_data* md,
 		const struct mavenregs* m) {
 	struct i2c_client* c = md->client;
 
diff -purN linux-org/fs/9p/conv.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/fs/9p/conv.c
--- linux-org/fs/9p/conv.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/fs/9p/conv.c	2005-12-29 19:20:19.000000000 +0100
@@ -350,7 +350,7 @@ serialize_stat(struct v9fs_session_info 
  *
  */
 
-static inline int
+static int
 deserialize_stat(struct v9fs_session_info *v9ses, struct cbuf *bufp,
 		 struct v9fs_stat *stat, struct cbuf *dbufp)
 {
diff -purN linux-org/fs/nfsd/nfsxdr.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/fs/nfsd/nfsxdr.c
--- linux-org/fs/nfsd/nfsxdr.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/fs/nfsd/nfsxdr.c	2005-12-29 19:24:28.000000000 +0100
@@ -151,7 +151,7 @@ decode_sattr(u32 *p, struct iattr *iap)
 	return p;
 }
 
-static inline u32 *
+static u32 *
 encode_fattr(struct svc_rqst *rqstp, u32 *p, struct svc_fh *fhp)
 {
 	struct vfsmount *mnt = fhp->fh_export->ex_mnt;
diff -purN linux-org/net/ieee80211/ieee80211_rx.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/net/ieee80211/ieee80211_rx.c
--- linux-org/net/ieee80211/ieee80211_rx.c	2005-12-22 19:54:36.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/net/ieee80211/ieee80211_rx.c	2005-12-29 19:24:05.000000000 +0100
@@ -1295,7 +1295,7 @@ static inline int is_beacon(int fc)
 	return (WLAN_FC_GET_STYPE(le16_to_cpu(fc)) == IEEE80211_STYPE_BEACON);
 }
 
-static inline void ieee80211_process_probe_response(struct ieee80211_device
+static void ieee80211_process_probe_response(struct ieee80211_device
 						    *ieee, struct
 						    ieee80211_probe_response
 						    *beacon, struct ieee80211_rx_stats
diff -purN linux-org/net/netfilter/nfnetlink.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/net/netfilter/nfnetlink.c
--- linux-org/net/netfilter/nfnetlink.c	2005-12-22 19:54:36.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/net/netfilter/nfnetlink.c	2005-12-29 19:28:08.000000000 +0100
@@ -212,7 +212,7 @@ int nfnetlink_unicast(struct sk_buff *sk
 }
 
 /* Process one complete nfnetlink message. */
-static inline int nfnetlink_rcv_msg(struct sk_buff *skb,
+static int nfnetlink_rcv_msg(struct sk_buff *skb,
 				    struct nlmsghdr *nlh, int *errp)
 {
 	struct nfnl_callback *nc;
diff -purN linux-org/sound/oss/esssolo1.c linux-2.6.15-rc6/sound/oss/esssolo1.c
--- linux-org/sound/oss/esssolo1.c	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6/sound/oss/esssolo1.c	2005-12-29 19:23:05.000000000 +0100
@@ -515,7 +515,7 @@ static inline int prog_dmabuf_adc(struct
 	return 0;
 }
 
-static inline int prog_dmabuf_dac(struct solo1_state *s)
+static int prog_dmabuf_dac(struct solo1_state *s)
 {
 	unsigned long va;
 	int c;

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 19:42 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > 
> > One thing we could do: I think modern gcc's at least have an option to 
> > warn when they don't inline something. It might make sense to just enable 
> > that warning, and see _which_ functions -Os and -funit-at-a-time say are 
> > too large to be inlined.
> 
> 
> with -Os gcc gets a bit picky and warns a LOT; with -O2... you get the
> following fixes (all huge functions)
> 


btw this caught one bug that the forced attribute was hiding: there was
a function which was "inline" and which uses a variable sized array.
normally gcc refuses to inline that (rightfully; esp relative addressing
gets rather really complex in that scenario), but the force attribute
causes it to be inlined anyway. No idea if the result is sane in that
case...

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:

> > i think there's quite an attitude here - we are at the mercy of "gcc 
> > brainfarts" anyway, and users are at the mercy of "kernel brainfarts" 
> > just as much.
> 
> There's a huge difference here. The gcc people very much have a "Oh, 
> we changed old documented behaviour - live with it" attitude, together 
> with "That was a gcc extension, not part of the C language, so when we 
> change how gcc behaves, it's _your_ problem" approach.
> 
> At least they used to.

yeah, i think that was definitely the case historically.

> Maybe the right thing to do is to just heed that warning, and remove 
> such functions from header files and make them no-inline? That way we 
> get the size fixes _regardless_ of any compiler options.

i think the eye-opener (for me at least) was that there's really a
massive 5%+ size difference here, from 2 simple patches. And meanwhile
Matt is doing truly hard size-reduction work and is mailing patches to
lkml that remove 200-300 bytes of .text, which is 0.01% of code, apiece.

Debloating is like scalability, a piece-by-piece process where we'll
only see the full effects after doing 100 independent steps, but still
we must not ignore the big effects either, nor must we get ourselves
into losing maintainance battles.

The current inline model seems to be a lost battle, the 'size noise'
caused by spurious inlines (which count in the thousands) is _far_
outpowering most of the size reduction efforts. And i think it can be
argued that at least in the -Os case gcc has a very clear directive wrt.
what to do - and much less room to mess up. Independently of how much we
trust it.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Matt Mackall]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 09:19:53PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:
> 
> > > i think there's quite an attitude here - we are at the mercy of "gcc 
> > > brainfarts" anyway, and users are at the mercy of "kernel brainfarts" 
> > > just as much.
> > 
> > There's a huge difference here. The gcc people very much have a "Oh, 
> > we changed old documented behaviour - live with it" attitude, together 
> > with "That was a gcc extension, not part of the C language, so when we 
> > change how gcc behaves, it's _your_ problem" approach.
> > 
> > At least they used to.
> 
> yeah, i think that was definitely the case historically.
> 
> > Maybe the right thing to do is to just heed that warning, and remove 
> > such functions from header files and make them no-inline? That way we 
> > get the size fixes _regardless_ of any compiler options.
> 
> i think the eye-opener (for me at least) was that there's really a
> massive 5%+ size difference here, from 2 simple patches. And meanwhile
> Matt is doing truly hard size-reduction work and is mailing patches to
> lkml that remove 200-300 bytes of .text, which is 0.01% of code, apiece.

For the record, my cut-off for non-trivial stuff is currently about
1K. Which is more like 0.1% for minimal kernels. Unfortunately, the
impact of these patches on a stripped-down kernel is less substantial
than on a featureful one, so 

> Debloating is like scalability, a piece-by-piece process where we'll
> only see the full effects after doing 100 independent steps, but still
> we must not ignore the big effects either, nor must we get ourselves
> into losing maintainance battles.
> 
> The current inline model seems to be a lost battle, the 'size noise'
> caused by spurious inlines (which count in the thousands) is _far_
> outpowering most of the size reduction efforts. And i think it can be
> argued that at least in the -Os case gcc has a very clear directive wrt.
> what to do - and much less room to mess up. Independently of how much we
> trust it.

I think both these patches deserve a spin in -mm. But I can see
arguments for staging it. Hopefully we can get Andrew to take the
unit-at-a-time piece for post-2.6.15 and try out the inlining after
we've got some confidence with the first.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 09:41:12AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:

 > Comparing it to the kernel is ludicrous. We care about user-space 
 > interfaces to an insane degree. We go to extreme lengths to maintain even 
 > badly designed or unintentional interfaces. Breaking user programs simply 
 > isn't acceptable. We're _not_ like the gcc developers. We know that 
 > people use old binaries for years and years, and that making a new 
 > release doesn't mean that you can just throw that out. You can trust us.

Does this mean you're holding back the 2.6.15 release until we don't
need to update udev to stop X from breaking ?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Seriously, we break things _every_ release. Sometimes in tiny
'doesn't really matter' ways, sometimes in "fuck, my system no
longer works" ways, but the days where we I didn't have to tell
our userspace packagers to rev a half dozen or so packages up to the
latest upstream revisions when I've pushed a rebased kernel are
a distant memory.

		Dave

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Dave Jones wrote:
> 
> Seriously, we break things _every_ release. Sometimes in tiny
> 'doesn't really matter' ways, sometimes in "fuck, my system no
> longer works" ways, but the days where we I didn't have to tell
> our userspace packagers to rev a half dozen or so packages up to the
> latest upstream revisions when I've pushed a rebased kernel are
> a distant memory.

Umm.. Complain more. I upgrade kernels a lot more often than I upgrade 
distros, and things don't break. They're not allowed to break, because I 
refuse to upgrade my user programs just because I do kernel development. 
But I'd only notice a small part of user space, so if people don't 
complain, they break not because we don't care, but because we didn't even 
know.

So if you have a user program that breaks, _complain_. It's really not 
supposed to happen outside of perhaps kernel module loaders etc things 
that get really really chummy with kernel internals (and even that was 
fixed: the modern way of loading modules isn't that chummy any more, so 
hopefully we'll not need to break even module loaders again).

If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally 
unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even 
have realized it broke.

At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers 
that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply 
isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning.

			Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers 
> that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply 
> isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning.

Btw, sometimes we knowingly change semantics that we believe that nobody 
would ever be able to care about. Then we literally _depend_ on people 
complaining about breakage in case we were wrong, and if you guys don't, 
and just curse, and upgrade programs, we actually miss out on real 
information.

And yes, occasionally we don't have much choice, and things break. It 
should be extremely rare, though. Much more commonly it would be a bug or 
an unintentional change that somebody didn't even realized changed 
semantics subtly.

		Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

Some data from an x86-64 allyesconfig build.

Below is a *rough* estimate of savings that could be achieved by
uninlining specific functions. The estimate is rough in the sense that it assumes
that no "trick" allows the uninlined version to be significantly smaller
than the inlined version, which for certain functions is not a valid
assumption (kmalloc comes to mind as an obvious one).

The saving is estimated at (count-1) * (size-6), eg the estimate for a
function call is 6 bytes as well and the estimate for the size something 
takes as inlined is the same as the uninline size. 


These are the top items only; a more complete list can be gotten 
from http://www.fenrus.org/savings

Est saving       function name                   count   uninline size
----------------------------------------------------------------------
95940            down                            [2461]  <45>
84392            skb_put                         [1097]  <83>
50932            kfree_skb                       [1499]  <40>
44880            init_waitqueue_head             [881]   <57>
34840            lowmem_page_address             [537]   <71>
25573            cfi_build_cmd                   [108]   <245>
19825            skb_push                        [326]   <67>
17992            aic_outb                        [347]   <58>
17434            module_put                      [380]   <52>
16318            ahd_outb                        [399]   <47>
16035            kmalloc                         [3208]  <11>
14040            netif_wake_queue                [361]   <45>
13266            dev_kfree_skb_irq               [202]   <72>
12078            signal_pending                  [672]   <24>
11979            ahc_outb                        [364]   <39>
11603            down_interruptible              [284]   <47>
11552            ahd_inb                         [305]   <44>
11310            dst_release                     [175]   <71>
11275            netif_stop_queue                [452]   <31>
11165            down_write                      [320]   <41>
11107            ahc_inb                         [384]   <35>
10807            usb_fill_bulk_urb               [102]   <113>
10508            ahd_set_modes                   [72]    <154>
10266            skb_queue_head_init             [178]   <64>

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Tim Schmielau]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Arjan van de Ven wrote:

> Some data from an x86-64 allyesconfig build.

Thanks for the table. This certainly is a good starting point to find 
valid candidates for uninlining.

> Below is a *rough* estimate of savings that could be achieved by
> uninlining specific functions. The estimate is rough in the sense that 
> it assumes
> that no "trick" allows the uninlined version to be significantly smaller
> than the inlined version, which for certain functions is not a valid
> assumption (kmalloc comes to mind as an obvious one).

What about the (probably more common) case that the inlined version is 
smaller because of optimizations that are not possible in the general 
case?

> The saving is estimated at (count-1) * (size-6), eg the estimate for a
> function call is 6 bytes as well and the estimate for the size something 
> takes as inlined is the same as the uninline size. 

Maybe the estimate is a little bit too rough. All savings add up to 
1780743 bytes, which seems a bit too large to me (can't compare to the
total size of an allyesconfig kernel since that gives me a 'File size 
limit exceeded' when linking).


What about the previous suggestion to remove inline from *all* static 
inline functions in .c files?
I just tried that for the fun of it. It got rid of 8806 'inline' 
annotations and produced the ~2 MB (uncompressed) patch at
   http://www.physik3.uni-rostock.de/tim/kernel/2.6/deinline.patch.gz
The resulting kernel actually booted (am running it right now). However, 
catching just these low-hanging fruits doesn't get me anywhere near 
Arjan's numbers. For my non-representative personal config I get (on 
i386 with -unit-at-a-time):

   > size vmlinux*
      text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
   2197105  386568  316840 2900513  2c4221 vmlinux
   2144453  392100  316840 2853393  2b8a11 vmlinux.deinline

I just started an allyesconfig build to get some real numbers.

Tim

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Tim Schmielau]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Tim Schmielau wrote:

>    > size vmlinux*
>       text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
>    2197105  386568  316840 2900513  2c4221 vmlinux
>    2144453  392100  316840 2853393  2b8a11 vmlinux.deinline

Doh! I forgot to set -Os.
Will better go to bed now and redo the numbers tomorrow.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Tim Schmielau <tim@physik3.uni-rostock.de> wrote:

> What about the previous suggestion to remove inline from *all* static 
> inline functions in .c files?

i think this is a way too static approach. Why go from one extreme to 
the other, when my 3 simple patches (which arguably create a more 
flexible scenario) gives us savings of 7.7%?

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 08:49:16AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Tim Schmielau <tim@physik3.uni-rostock.de> wrote:
> 
> > What about the previous suggestion to remove inline from *all* static 
> > inline functions in .c files?
> 
> i think this is a way too static approach. Why go from one extreme to 
> the other, when my 3 simple patches (which arguably create a more 
> flexible scenario) gives us savings of 7.7%?

This point only discusses the inline change, which were (without 
unit-at-a-time) in your measurements 2.9%.

Your patch might be simple, but it also might have side effects in cases 
where we _really_ want the code forced to be inlined. How simple is it 
to prove that your uninline patch doesn't cause a subtle breakage 
somewhere?

inline's in .c files are nearly always wrong (there might be very few 
exceptions), and this should simply be fixed.

Applying Arjan's uninlining patch [1] against 2.6.15-rc5-mm3 (ignoring a 
few rejects at applying the patch), I'm getting more than 0.6% .text 
savings (this is with a "compile everything .config", without 
unit-at-a-time and with -Os). 

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

[1] http://www.fenrus.org/noinline

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 08:49:16AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > 
> > * Tim Schmielau <tim@physik3.uni-rostock.de> wrote:
> > 
> > > What about the previous suggestion to remove inline from *all* static 
> > > inline functions in .c files?
> > 
> > i think this is a way too static approach. Why go from one extreme to 
> > the other, when my 3 simple patches (which arguably create a more 
> > flexible scenario) gives us savings of 7.7%?
> 
> This point only discusses the inline change, which were (without 
> unit-at-a-time) in your measurements 2.9%.
> 
> Your patch might be simple, but it also might have side effects in 
> cases where we _really_ want the code forced to be inlined. How simple 
> is it to prove that your uninline patch doesn't cause a subtle 
> breakage somewhere?

it's quite simple: run the latency tracer with stack-trace debugging 
enabled, and it will measure the worst-case stack footprint that is 
triggered on that system. Obviously any compiler version change or 
option change can cause problems, there's nothing new about it - and 
it's not realistic to wait one year for changes like that. If you have 
to wait that long, you are testing it the wrong way.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

[ this email discusses only your uninline patch ]

On Sat, Dec 31, 2005 at 03:45:35PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 08:49:16AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > > 
> > > * Tim Schmielau <tim@physik3.uni-rostock.de> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > What about the previous suggestion to remove inline from *all* static 
> > > > inline functions in .c files?
> > > 
> > > i think this is a way too static approach. Why go from one extreme to 
> > > the other, when my 3 simple patches (which arguably create a more 
> > > flexible scenario) gives us savings of 7.7%?
> > 
> > This point only discusses the inline change, which were (without 
> > unit-at-a-time) in your measurements 2.9%.
> > 
> > Your patch might be simple, but it also might have side effects in 
> > cases where we _really_ want the code forced to be inlined. How simple 
> > is it to prove that your uninline patch doesn't cause a subtle 
> > breakage somewhere?
> 
> it's quite simple: run the latency tracer with stack-trace debugging 
> enabled, and it will measure the worst-case stack footprint that is 
> triggered on that system. Obviously any compiler version change or 
> option change can cause problems, there's nothing new about it - and 
> it's not realistic to wait one year for changes like that. If you have 
> to wait that long, you are testing it the wrong way.

What are you talking about?

You sent two different patches:
1. uninline
2. unit-at-a-time for i386

These are two separate patches that should be discussed separately.

Your answer regarding your second patch does't fit in any way my email 
regarding your first patch.

Your uninline patch shouldn't cause any regressions regarding stack 
footprint, and stack usage is not what I was talking about.

My email was about things like Andi's example of the x86-64 vsyscall 
code where we really need inlining, and due to your proposed inline 
semantics change there might be breakages if an __always_inline is 
forgotten at a place where it was required.

Your uninline patch might be simple, but the safe way would be Arjan's 
approach to start removing all the buggy inline's from .c files.

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> My email was about things like Andi's example of the x86-64 vsyscall 
> code where we really need inlining, and due to your proposed inline 
> semantics change there might be breakages if an __always_inline is 
> forgotten at a place where it was required.

we can have two types of breakages:

 - stuff wont build if not always_inline. Really easy to find and fix.

 - stuff wont work at all (e.g. vsyscalls) because they have some
   unspecified reliance on gcc's code output. Such code Is Bad anyway,
   and the breakage is still clear: the vsyscalls wont work at all, it's
   quickly found, the appropriate always_inline is inserted, and the
   incident is forgotten.

talking about 'safer' or 'risky' in this context is misleading, these 
are very clear symptoms which are easy to fix.

[ If you didnt talk about this uninline patch in the "we have to wait 
  one year" comment then please clarify that - all that came through to 
  me was some vague "lets wait with this" message, and it wasnt clear 
  (to me) which patch it applied to and why. ]

> Your uninline patch might be simple, but the safe way would be Arjan's 
> approach to start removing all the buggy inline's from .c files.

sure, that's another thing to do, but it's also clear that there's no 
reason to force inlines in the -Os case.

There are 22,000+ inline functions in the kernel right now (inlined 
about a 100,000 times), and we'd have to change _thousands_ of them. 
They are causing an unjustified code bloat of somewhere around 20-30%. 
(some of them are very much justified, especially in core kernel code)

to say it loud and clear again: our current way of handling inlines is 
_FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_. To me this means that fundamental changes are 
needed for the _mechanics_ and meaning of inlines. We default to 'always 
inline' which has a current information to noise ratio of 1:10 perhaps.  
My patch changes the mechanics and meaning of inlines, and pretty much 
anything else but a change to the meaning of inlines will still result 
in the same scenario occuring over and over again.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> > Your uninline patch might be simple, but the safe way would be Arjan's 
> > approach to start removing all the buggy inline's from .c files.
> 
> sure, that's another thing to do, but it's also clear that there's no 
> reason to force inlines in the -Os case.
> 
> There are 22,000+ inline functions in the kernel right now (inlined 
> about a 100,000 times), and we'd have to change _thousands_ of them. 
> They are causing an unjustified code bloat of somewhere around 20-30%. 
> (some of them are very much justified, especially in core kernel code)

my patch attacks the top bloaters, and gains about 30k to 40k (depending
on compiler). Gaining the other 300k is going to be a LOT of churn, not
just in amount of work... so to some degree my patch shows that it's a
bit of a hopeless battle.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 11:48:22AM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
> > > Your uninline patch might be simple, but the safe way would be Arjan's 
> > > approach to start removing all the buggy inline's from .c files.
> > 
> > sure, that's another thing to do, but it's also clear that there's no 
> > reason to force inlines in the -Os case.
> > 
> > There are 22,000+ inline functions in the kernel right now (inlined 
> > about a 100,000 times), and we'd have to change _thousands_ of them. 
> > They are causing an unjustified code bloat of somewhere around 20-30%. 
> > (some of them are very much justified, especially in core kernel code)
> 
> my patch attacks the top bloaters, and gains about 30k to 40k (depending
> on compiler). Gaining the other 300k is going to be a LOT of churn, not
> just in amount of work... so to some degree my patch shows that it's a
> bit of a hopeless battle.

A quick grep shows at about 10.000 inline's in .c files, and nearly all 
of them should be removed.

Yes this is a serious amount of work, but it's an ideal janitorial task.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> > > > Your uninline patch might be simple, but the safe way would be Arjan's 
> > > > approach to start removing all the buggy inline's from .c files.
> > > 
> > > sure, that's another thing to do, but it's also clear that there's no 
> > > reason to force inlines in the -Os case.
> > > 
> > > There are 22,000+ inline functions in the kernel right now (inlined 
> > > about a 100,000 times), and we'd have to change _thousands_ of them. 
> > > They are causing an unjustified code bloat of somewhere around 20-30%. 
> > > (some of them are very much justified, especially in core kernel code)
> > 
> > my patch attacks the top bloaters, and gains about 30k to 40k (depending
> > on compiler). Gaining the other 300k is going to be a LOT of churn, not
> > just in amount of work... so to some degree my patch shows that it's a
> > bit of a hopeless battle.
> 
> A quick grep shows at about 10.000 inline's in .c files, and nearly 
> all of them should be removed.
> 
> Yes this is a serious amount of work, but it's an ideal janitorial 
> task.

oh, it is certainly an insane amount of janitorial work - which is also 
precisely why this well-known and seemingly trivial problem has 
escallated so much!

the nontrivial thing is that the moment trivial things get widespread, 
_the mechanism_ needs a change. I.e. the 'widespread inlines' arent the 
big problem, the big problem is that the widespread inlines _got 
widespread_. I'm not sure whether i'm being clear enough: think of the 
22,000 inlines as a symptom of a deeper problem, not as the problem 
itself. That is i am trying to get through (to you and to others).

trying to attack a problem that has a number-of-changes size of 22,000 
is also trivially _futile_, we'll be quickly overwhelmed by the 
underlying problem again, if it's not addressed.

both Arjan and me are trying to attack the underlying problem, while 
also fixing all the results of that problem. But the main focus is on 
mapping and eliminating the _hidden_ problem, not on the very visible 
'symptoms'. The symptoms are easy to fix! I do think the underlying 
problem is fixable too, but i find it slightly frustrating that most 
people are focused on the symptoms, missing the bigger picture.

what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
(well-known) things:

  1) people add 'inline' too easily
  2) we default to 'always inline'

problem #1 is very hard to influence, because it's a basic psychology 
issue. Pretty much the only approach to fix this is to educate people.  
But it is hard to change the ways people code, and it's a long-term 
thing with no reasonable expectation of success. So while we can and 
should improve education of this issue (this thread will certainly raise 
awareness of it), we cannot rely on it alone.

i think the only realistic approach is to attack component #2: do not 
default to 'always inline' but default to 'inline if the compiler agrees 
too'. I do think we should default to 'compiler decides' (when using a 
gcc4 compiler), as this also has some obvious advantages:

 - different inlining when compiler optimizes for size not for speed

changing this also means we need to map a few trivial cases where kernel 
code relies on inlining (or relies on non-inlining), but those are 
fortunately easy and mostly well-known.

taking Arjan's patch alone, or running a script to change all static 
inlines in .c files to non-inline, without doing some of the other 
changes i'm proposing has a number of disadvantages:

 - it leaves the defaults in place, and we'll again gain ~50-100 new 
   'incorrect' inlines per week as we did until today. Barring the 
   initial few weeks of enthusiasm, nobody will really address that in 
   the long run, and we'll be back to square one.

 - it likely destroys the inlines there _were_ put into .c files 
   judiciously and correctly. The keyword 'inline' is a hint for gcc 
   which increases the likelyhood it will be inlined. Removing them an 
   bloc is _wrong_ and punishes the 'good guys', while still allowing 
   the 'bad guys' to continue business as usual.

so all in one, unless we attack #1 or #2 _with a bigger effective effort 
than we spend on attacking the symptoms_, we will only achieve a 
temporary, short-term reprieve.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 03:05:11PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> 
> > > > > Your uninline patch might be simple, but the safe way would be Arjan's 
> > > > > approach to start removing all the buggy inline's from .c files.
> > > > 
> > > > sure, that's another thing to do, but it's also clear that there's no 
> > > > reason to force inlines in the -Os case.
> > > > 
> > > > There are 22,000+ inline functions in the kernel right now (inlined 
> > > > about a 100,000 times), and we'd have to change _thousands_ of them. 
> > > > They are causing an unjustified code bloat of somewhere around 20-30%. 
> > > > (some of them are very much justified, especially in core kernel code)
> > > 
> > > my patch attacks the top bloaters, and gains about 30k to 40k (depending
> > > on compiler). Gaining the other 300k is going to be a LOT of churn, not
> > > just in amount of work... so to some degree my patch shows that it's a
> > > bit of a hopeless battle.
> > 
> > A quick grep shows at about 10.000 inline's in .c files, and nearly 
> > all of them should be removed.
> > 
> > Yes this is a serious amount of work, but it's an ideal janitorial 
> > task.
> 
> oh, it is certainly an insane amount of janitorial work - which is also 
> precisely why this well-known and seemingly trivial problem has 
> escallated so much!
> 
> the nontrivial thing is that the moment trivial things get widespread, 
> _the mechanism_ needs a change. I.e. the 'widespread inlines' arent the 
> big problem, the big problem is that the widespread inlines _got 
> widespread_. I'm not sure whether i'm being clear enough: think of the 
> 22,000 inlines as a symptom of a deeper problem, not as the problem 
> itself. That is i am trying to get through (to you and to others).

My point goes more into the following direction:
- 10,000 inline's are in .c files
- 12,000 inline's are in .h files

The interesting one's are the latter:
- if they are too big, the smallest solution is to move them to .c files
- it might cause a size _increase_ if some version if gcc will not 
  inline all of them

The latter gives warnings with -Winline, and adding this flag to the 
gloval CFLAGS and analyzing all the warnings (especially with -Os) could 
make my point void.

>...
> what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> (well-known) things:
> 
>   1) people add 'inline' too easily
>   2) we default to 'always inline'
> 
> problem #1 is very hard to influence, because it's a basic psychology
> issue. Pretty much the only approach to fix this is to educate people.
> But it is hard to change the ways people code, and it's a long-term
> thing with no reasonable expectation of success. So while we can and
> should improve education of this issue (this thread will certainly raise
> awareness of it), we cannot rely on it alone.
>
> i think the only realistic approach is to attack component #2: do not
> default to 'always inline' but default to 'inline if the compiler agrees
> too'. I do think we should default to 'compiler decides' (when using a
> gcc4 compiler), as this also has some obvious advantages:
>
>  - different inlining when compiler optimizes for size not for speed
>
> changing this also means we need to map a few trivial cases where kernel
> code relies on inlining (or relies on non-inlining), but those are
> fortunately easy and mostly well-known.
>...
> so all in one, unless we attack #1 or #2 _with a bigger effective effort 
> than we spend on attacking the symptoms_, we will only achieve a 
> temporary, short-term reprieve.

#1 should definitely be done.

And you do slightly manage to convince me that #2 is a good (additional) 
approach (if -Winline gets added to the global CFLAGS).

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:

> what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> (well-known) things:
>
>   1) people add 'inline' too easily
>   2) we default to 'always inline'

For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
from one place.

If I'm able to say "this is static function which is called from one
place" I'd do so instead of saying "inline". But omitting the "inline"
with hope that some new gcc probably will inline it anyway (on some
platform?) doesn't seem like a best idea.

But what _is_ the best idea?
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Mon, 2006-01-02 at 19:44 +0100, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:
> 
> > what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> > (well-known) things:
> >
> >   1) people add 'inline' too easily
> >   2) we default to 'always inline'
> 
> For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> from one place.

you know what? gcc inlines those automatic even without you typing
"inline". (esp if you have unit-at-a-time enabled)

> 
> If I'm able to say "this is static function which is called from one
> place" I'd do so instead of saying "inline". But omitting the "inline"
> with hope that some new gcc probably will inline it anyway (on some
> platform?) doesn't seem like a best idea.

well.. gcc is not stupid, especially if you give it visibility by
enabling unit-at-a-time. It *WILL* inline static-used-once functions
unless there is a technical reason not to (say variable sized arrays)
> 
> But what _is_ the best idea?

you save about 1 cycle by inlining unless there is a trick for the
optimizer. Especially in the case you mention where gcc will dtrt...
it's not worth typing "inline", what if you change the code later to use
the function twice... most people at least forget to remove the
redundant inline, turning it into a bloater...

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> writes:

> you know what? gcc inlines those automatic even without you typing
> "inline". (esp if you have unit-at-a-time enabled)

And if it's not or if it's an older gcc?
Such functions should always be inlined, except maybe while debugging.

> well.. gcc is not stupid, especially if you give it visibility by
> enabling unit-at-a-time.

A *.c author can't do that. Who knows what flags will be used?

> you save about 1 cycle by inlining unless there is a trick for the
> optimizer.

There probably is but even without further optimizations I still save
at least that 1 cycle (and probably it caches better and have less stack
impact etc).

> Especially in the case you mention where gcc will dtrt...
> it's not worth typing "inline", what if you change the code later to use
> the function twice... most people at least forget to remove the
> redundant inline, turning it into a bloater...

I'd probably not forget that. BTW: most people don't write Linux.
Still, in cases where there are only gains and nothing to lose, why
not use some form of "inline"?

We could be more descriptive, though. An average reader should probably
be able to _read_ why is a particular function inlined, without guessing.
That would also help WRT different gcc options and versions, and it would
help checking if the "inline" is indeed correct (a public function with
callers all over the place marked as "one caller static" would be
obviously incorrect).
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Mon, 2006-01-02 at 20:49 +0100, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> writes:
> 
> > you know what? gcc inlines those automatic even without you typing
> > "inline". (esp if you have unit-at-a-time enabled)
> 
> And if it's not or if it's an older gcc?

older than 3.0? that's not possible much longer

> > well.. gcc is not stupid, especially if you give it visibility by
> > enabling unit-at-a-time.
> 
> A *.c author can't do that. Who knows what flags will be used?
> 

the author should assume sane flags ;)

> > you save about 1 cycle by inlining unless there is a trick for the
> > optimizer.
> 
> There probably is but even without further optimizations I still save
> at least that 1 cycle (and probably it caches better and have less stack
> impact etc).

actually that's no so sure. especially with the current regparm
callingconvention. Inlining will cause more spills, which causes more
stack usage. It's doubtful the extra space you use with "call" will
outweigh that.

> > Especially in the case you mention where gcc will dtrt...
> > it's not worth typing "inline", what if you change the code later to use
> > the function twice... most people at least forget to remove the
> > redundant inline, turning it into a bloater...
> 
> I'd probably not forget that. BTW: most people don't write Linux.
> Still, in cases where there are only gains and nothing to lose, why
> not use some form of "inline"?

it's by far not only gains. And maintenance costs too.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> writes:

> it's by far not only gains. And maintenance costs too.

Anyway, distinctive "inlines" could help here, right?
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jörn Engel]

On Mon, 2 January 2006 21:05:31 +0100, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> writes:
> 
> > it's by far not only gains. And maintenance costs too.
> 
> Anyway, distinctive "inlines" could help here, right?

Not really.  Your example, as Linus already explained, is a great
example of how _not_ to inline stuff.  If in doubt, don't inline.  If
a function is called just once, don't inline unless there are other
good reasons for it.  If you get a minimal gain (10 bytes) in text
size, don't inline.  The maintenance issue is more important.

Jörn

-- 
A defeated army first battles and then seeks victory.
-- Sun Tzu

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Russell King]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 07:51:32PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-01-02 at 19:44 +0100, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> > Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:
> > 
> > > what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> > > (well-known) things:
> > >
> > >   1) people add 'inline' too easily
> > >   2) we default to 'always inline'
> > 
> > For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> > from one place.
> 
> you know what? gcc inlines those automatic even without you typing
> "inline". (esp if you have unit-at-a-time enabled)

Rubbish it will.

static void fn1(void *f)
{
}

void fn2(void *f)
{
        fn1(f);
}

on ARM produces:

        .text
        .align  2
        .type   fn1, %function
fn1:
        @ args = 0, pretend = 0, frame = 0
        @ frame_needed = 0, uses_anonymous_args = 0
        @ link register save eliminated.
        @ lr needed for prologue
        mov     pc, lr
        .size   fn1, .-fn1
        .align  2
        .global fn2
        .type   fn2, %function
fn2:
        @ args = 0, pretend = 0, frame = 0
        @ frame_needed = 0, uses_anonymous_args = 0
        @ link register save eliminated.
        @ lr needed for prologue
        b       fn1
        .size   fn2, .-fn2
        .ident  "GCC: (GNU) 3.3 20030728 (Red Hat Linux 3.3-16)"

You can't get a simpler function than fn1 to automatically inline.

GCC will only automatically inline using -O3.  We don't use -O3 with
the kernel - only -O2 and -Os.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:  2.6 Serial core

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Alan Cox]

On Llu, 2006-01-02 at 22:23 +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > you know what? gcc inlines those automatic even without you typing
> > "inline". (esp if you have unit-at-a-time enabled)

> GCC will only automatically inline using -O3.  We don't use -O3 with
> the kernel - only -O2 and -Os.

Or using -finline-functions which is a good idea. -O3 has some other
undesirable side effects. Both -O2 -finline-functions and -Os
-finline-functions will do what looks to be the right thing.

Mind you anything more than a few instructions is questionable with
current processors.

Alan

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Daniel Jacobowitz]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:23:35PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 07:51:32PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > On Mon, 2006-01-02 at 19:44 +0100, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> > > Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:
> > > 
> > > > what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> > > > (well-known) things:
> > > >
> > > >   1) people add 'inline' too easily
> > > >   2) we default to 'always inline'
> > > 
> > > For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> > > from one place.
> > 
> > you know what? gcc inlines those automatic even without you typing
> > "inline". (esp if you have unit-at-a-time enabled)
> 
> Rubbish it will.
> 
> static void fn1(void *f)
> {
> }
> 
> void fn2(void *f)
> {
>         fn1(f);
> }
> 
> on ARM produces:

On 3.4, 4.0, and 4.1 you only need -O for this (I just checked both x86
and ARM compilers).  I believe this came in with unit-at-a-time, as
Arjan said - which was GCC 3.4.

-- 
Daniel Jacobowitz
CodeSourcery

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Russell King]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:59:04PM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:23:35PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > static void fn1(void *f)
> > {
> > }
> > 
> > void fn2(void *f)
> > {
> >         fn1(f);
> > }
> > 
> > on ARM produces:
> 
> On 3.4, 4.0, and 4.1 you only need -O for this (I just checked both x86
> and ARM compilers).  I believe this came in with unit-at-a-time, as
> Arjan said - which was GCC 3.4.

Well, as demonstrated, it doesn't work with gcc 3.3.  Since we aren't
about to increase the minimum gcc version to 3.4, this isn't acceptable.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:  2.6 Serial core

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 08:53 +0000, Russell King wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:59:04PM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:23:35PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > > static void fn1(void *f)
> > > {
> > > }
> > > 
> > > void fn2(void *f)
> > > {
> > >         fn1(f);
> > > }
> > > 
> > > on ARM produces:
> > 
> > On 3.4, 4.0, and 4.1 you only need -O for this (I just checked both x86
> > and ARM compilers).  I believe this came in with unit-at-a-time, as
> > Arjan said - which was GCC 3.4.
> 
> Well, as demonstrated, it doesn't work with gcc 3.3.  Since we aren't
> about to increase the minimum gcc version to 3.4, this isn't acceptable.

s/isn't acceptable/is suboptimal/

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Russell King]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 09:56:26AM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 08:53 +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:59:04PM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:23:35PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > > > static void fn1(void *f)
> > > > {
> > > > }
> > > > 
> > > > void fn2(void *f)
> > > > {
> > > >         fn1(f);
> > > > }
> > > > 
> > > > on ARM produces:
> > > 
> > > On 3.4, 4.0, and 4.1 you only need -O for this (I just checked both x86
> > > and ARM compilers).  I believe this came in with unit-at-a-time, as
> > > Arjan said - which was GCC 3.4.
> > 
> > Well, as demonstrated, it doesn't work with gcc 3.3.  Since we aren't
> > about to increase the minimum gcc version to 3.4, this isn't acceptable.
> 
> s/isn't acceptable/is suboptimal/

No - it's a case of going overboard with this inline removal idea.
If we would prefer a function to be inlined because it is only used
once, we should specify it as such rather than relying on some quirky
idea that it _might_ do the right thing if we don't specify it.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:  2.6 Serial core

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 09:00 +0000, Russell King wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 09:56:26AM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 08:53 +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:59:04PM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:23:35PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > > > > static void fn1(void *f)
> > > > > {
> > > > > }
> > > > > 
> > > > > void fn2(void *f)
> > > > > {
> > > > >         fn1(f);
> > > > > }
> > > > > 
> > > > > on ARM produces:
> > > > 
> > > > On 3.4, 4.0, and 4.1 you only need -O for this (I just checked both x86
> > > > and ARM compilers).  I believe this came in with unit-at-a-time, as
> > > > Arjan said - which was GCC 3.4.
> > > 
> > > Well, as demonstrated, it doesn't work with gcc 3.3.  Since we aren't
> > > about to increase the minimum gcc version to 3.4, this isn't acceptable.
> > 
> > s/isn't acceptable/is suboptimal/
> 
> No - it's a case of going overboard with this inline removal idea.
> If we would prefer a function to be inlined because it is only used
> once, we should specify it as such rather than relying on some quirky
> idea that it _might_ do the right thing if we don't specify it

so for those gcc's one passes -finline-functions ....
(or -finline-functions-called-once if it's supported, which newer gccs
have again :)

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Vitaly Wool]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

>On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 08:53 +0000, Russell King wrote:
>  
>
>>On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:59:04PM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:23:35PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>static void fn1(void *f)
>>>>{
>>>>}
>>>>
>>>>void fn2(void *f)
>>>>{
>>>>        fn1(f);
>>>>}
>>>>
>>>>on ARM produces:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>On 3.4, 4.0, and 4.1 you only need -O for this (I just checked both x86
>>>and ARM compilers).  I believe this came in with unit-at-a-time, as
>>>Arjan said - which was GCC 3.4.
>>>      
>>>
>>Well, as demonstrated, it doesn't work with gcc 3.3.  Since we aren't
>>about to increase the minimum gcc version to 3.4, this isn't acceptable.
>>    
>>
>
>s/isn't acceptable/is suboptimal/
>  
>
I'm afraid it _isn't_ _acceptable_ since it just can kill current XIP 
implementation.

Vitaly

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andrew Morton]

Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl> wrote:
>
> Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> writes:
> 
> > what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> > (well-known) things:
> >
> >   1) people add 'inline' too easily
> >   2) we default to 'always inline'
> 
> For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> from one place.
> 
> If I'm able to say "this is static function which is called from one
> place" I'd do so instead of saying "inline". But omitting the "inline"
> with hope that some new gcc probably will inline it anyway (on some
> platform?) doesn't seem like a best idea.
> 
> But what _is_ the best idea?

Just use `inline'.  With gcc-3 it'll be inlined.

With gcc-4 and Ingo's patch it _might_ be inlined.  And it _might_ be
uninlined by the compiler if someone adds a second callsite later on. 
Maybe.  We just don't know.  That's a problem.  Use of __always_inline will
remove this uncertainty.

So our options appear to be:

a) Go fix up stupid inlinings (again) or

b) Apply Ingo's patch, then go add __always_inline to places which we
   care about.

Either way, we need to go all over the tree.  In practice, we'll only
bother going over the bits which we most care about (core kernel, core
networking, a handful of net and block drivers).  I suspect many of the bad
inlining decisions are in poorly-maintained code - we've been pretty
careful about this for several years.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jakub Jelinek]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 11:03:41AM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > But what _is_ the best idea?
> 
> Just use `inline'.  With gcc-3 it'll be inlined.

Where does this certainity come from?  gcc-3.x (as well as 2.x) each had
its own heuristics which functions should be inlined and which should not.
inline keyword has always been a hint.

	Jakub

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andrew Morton]

Jakub Jelinek <jakub@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> inline keyword has always been a hint.
>

Kernel does

# define inline           inline          __attribute__((always_inline))

for gcc-3 and gcc-4.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006, Jakub Jelinek wrote:
> 
> Where does this certainity come from?  gcc-3.x (as well as 2.x) each had
> its own heuristics which functions should be inlined and which should not.
> inline keyword has always been a hint.

NO IT HAS NOT.

This is total revisionist history by gcc people. It did not use to be a 
hint. If you asked for inlining, you got it unless there was some 
technical reason why gcc couldn't inline it (ie recursive inlining, and 
trampolines and some other issues). End of story. 

So don't fall for the "hint" argument. It's simply not true.

At some point during gcc-3.1, gcc people changed it to be a hint, and did 
so very badly indeed, where functions that really needed inlining (because 
constant propagation made them go away) were not inlined any more. As a 
result, we do

	#define inline   inline __attribute__((always_inline))

in <linux/compiler-gcc3.h> exactly because gcc-3.1 broke so badly.

And nobody sane will argue that we would _ever_ not do that. gcc-3 was 
just too broken. Some architectures (sparc64, MIPS, s390) ended up trying 
to tune the inlining limits by hand (usually making them effectively 
infinitely large), but the basic rule was that gcc-3 inlining was just not 
working.

It may have improved in later gcc-3 versions, and apparently it's getting 
better in gcc-4. And that's the only thing we're discussing: whether to 
let gcc _4_ finally make some inlining decisions.

And people are nervous about it, exactly because the gcc people have 
historically just changed what "inline" means, with little regard for 
real-life code that uses it. And then they have this revisionist agenda, 
trying to change history and claiming that it's always been "just a hint". 
Despite the fact that the gcc manual itself very much said otherwise (I'm 
sure the manuals have been changed too).

		Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:

> And people are nervous about it, exactly because the gcc people have 
> historically just changed what "inline" means, with little regard for 
> real-life code that uses it. [...]

i think whatever gcc does, we probably cannot get hurt more than we are 
hurting right now: everything is inlined, which bloats stuff to the 
maximum level. Stating that doesnt in any way excuse gcc 3.1's 
unilateral change of what 'inline' means, it doesnt reduce the distrust 
that might exist towards gcc, it's simply a statement of the situation 
we have right now. We can continue to distrust gcc (and probably 
rightfully so), but we probably cannot continue to hurt users as 
collateral damage of whatever tool-level fight. (and i'm not suggesting 
that this collateral damage is intentional in any way, it slowly evolved 
into the mess we have now.)

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jakub Jelinek]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 11:41:24AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > Where does this certainity come from?  gcc-3.x (as well as 2.x) each had
> > its own heuristics which functions should be inlined and which should not.
> > inline keyword has always been a hint.
> 
> NO IT HAS NOT.
> 
> This is total revisionist history by gcc people. It did not use to be a 
> hint. If you asked for inlining, you got it unless there was some 
> technical reason why gcc couldn't inline it (ie recursive inlining, and 
> trampolines and some other issues). End of story. 

One of the "technical reasons" was if the function was bigger than some
threshold.  And in that case I think it is ok to speak about inline keyword
as a hint.  The default inline limit (in rtx count after constant folding,
but not other optimizations) was bigger than in the GCC 3.x era, sure, but
there was a limit and GCC wasn't inlining functions bigger than that limit,
even if they could be simplified due to constant arguments to something
much smaller.

	Jakub

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:

> > > what is the 'deeper problem'? I believe it is a combination of two 
> > > (well-known) things:
> > >
> > >   1) people add 'inline' too easily
> > >   2) we default to 'always inline'
> > 
> > For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> > from one place.
> > 
> > If I'm able to say "this is static function which is called from one
> > place" I'd do so instead of saying "inline". But omitting the "inline"
> > with hope that some new gcc probably will inline it anyway (on some
> > platform?) doesn't seem like a best idea.
> > 
> > But what _is_ the best idea?
> 
> Just use `inline'.  With gcc-3 it'll be inlined.
> 
> With gcc-4 and Ingo's patch it _might_ be inlined.  And it _might_ be 
> uninlined by the compiler if someone adds a second callsite later on.  
> Maybe.  We just don't know.  That's a problem.  Use of __always_inline 
> will remove this uncertainty.

i agree with your later points, so this is only a minor nit: why is a 
dynamic decision done by the compiler a 'problem' in itself?

It _could_ _become_ a problem if the compiler does it incorrectly, but 
that's so true for just about any other dynamic gcc decision: what 
registers it opts to use in a hotpath, what amount of loop-unrolling it 
does, what machine-ops it choses, how it schedules them, how it reorders 
them, how it generates memory access patterns, etc., etc. Sure, the 
compiler can mess up in _any_ of these dynamic decisions, with possibly 
bad effects to performance, but that by itself doesnt create some magic 
'dynamic inlining is bad' axiom.

In fact, i believe the opposite is true: inlining is arguably best done 
dynamically. Whether gcc makes use of that theoretical opening is 
another question, but my measurements show that gcc4 does a quite good 
job of it. (It certainly does a better job than what we humans did over 
the last 5 years, creating 20,000+ inline markers.)

and even if we let gcc do the inlining, a global -finline-limit=0 
compile-time flag will essentially turn off all 'hinted' inlining done 
by gcc.

> So our options appear to be:
> 
> a) Go fix up stupid inlinings (again) or
> 
> b) Apply Ingo's patch, then go add __always_inline to places which we
>    care about.

note that one of the patches i did (a small one in fact) does exactly 
that, for x86: i marked all things __always_inline that allyesconfig 
needs inlined.

> Either way, we need to go all over the tree. In practice, we'll only 
> bother going over the bits which we most care about (core kernel, core 
> networking, a handful of net and block drivers).  I suspect many of 
> the bad inlining decisions are in poorly-maintained code - we've been 
> pretty careful about this for several years.

yes. And this pretty much supports my point: we should flip the meaning 
of 'inline' around, from 'always inline', to at least: 'inline only if 
gcc thinks so too, if we are optimizing for size'.

and i'd be equally happy with making the flip-around even more agressive 
than my first patch-queue did, to e.g. alias 'inline' to 'nothing':

	#define inline

and to then remove inline from all .c level files (and most .h level 
files) as well - albeit this would punish places that use inline 
judiciously.

Even in this case, it is very likely much easier to re-add inlines to 
the few places that really improve from them (even though they dont need 
it in the __always_inline sense like vsyscalls or kmalloc()), than to 
keep the current 'always inline' logic in place and to hope for a 
gradual reduction of the use of the inline keyword...

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andrew Morton]

Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
>
> i marked all things __always_inline that allyesconfig 
>  needs inlined.

I hope you fixed __always_inline too.  It's currently a no-op on all but
alpha.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:

> Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
> >
> > i marked all things __always_inline that allyesconfig 
> >  needs inlined.
> 
> I hope you fixed __always_inline too.  It's currently a no-op on all 
> but alpha.

yeah, i fixed that, my patch-queue does:

#define __always_inline         inline __attribute__((always_inline))

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:

> Either way, we need to go all over the tree.  In practice, we'll only 
> bother going over the bits which we most care about (core kernel, core 
> networking, a handful of net and block drivers).  I suspect many of 
> the bad inlining decisions are in poorly-maintained code - we've been 
> pretty careful about this for several years.

i've gone over quite many inlining decisions, and i have to say that 
even for my _own code_, most of the historic inlining decisions were 
wrong. What seems simple on the C level, can be quite bloaty on the 
assembly level - even if you are well aware of how C maps to assembly!

furthermore, there's also a new CPU-architecture argument: the cost of 
icache misses has gone up disproportionally over the past couple of 
years, because on the first hand lots of instruction-scheduling 
'metadata' got embedded into the L1 cache (like what used to be the BTB 
cache), and secondly because the (physical) latency gap between L1 cache 
and L2 cache has increased. Thirdly, CPUs are much better at untangling 
data dependencies, hence more compact but also more complex code can 
still perform well. So the L1 icache is more important than it used to 
be, and small code size is more important than raw cycle count - _and_ 
small code has less of a speed hit than it used to have. x86 CPUs have 
become simple JIT compilers, and code size reductions tend to become the 
best way to inform the CPU of what operations we want to compute.

So as an end-result, most of the historic inlining decisions _even in 
well-maintained core code_ are mostly incorrect these days. We really 
only want to inline things where the inlining results in _smaller_ code 
(due to less clobbering of function-call related caller-saved 
registers). That pretty much only leaves the truly trivial 1-2 
instructions code sequences like get_current() and the __always_inline 
stuff like kmalloc() or memset(). All the rest wants to be a function 
call these days.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> 
> For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> from one place.

That's actually not a good practice. Two reasons:

 - debuggability goes way down. Oops reports give a much nicer call-chain 
   and better locality for uninlined code.

 - Gcc can suck at big functions with lots of local variables. A 
   function call can be _cheaper_ than trying to inline a function, 
   regardless of whether it's called once or many times. I've seen 
   functions that had several silly (and unnecessary) spills suddenly 
   become quite readable when they were separate functions.

   More importantly, the "inline" sticks around. Later on, the function is 
   used for some other place too, and the inline doesn't get removed.

The second "the inline sticks around" case is something that happens to 
helper functions too. They started out as trivial macros in a header file, 
but then they get converted to an inline function because they get more 
complex, and eventually it grows a new hook. Suddenly what used to 
generate two instructions generates ten instructions and a call, and would 
have been much better off being uninlined in a .c file.

So inlines that make sense at one point have a tendency to _not_ make 
sense a year or two later. 

I suspect we'd be best off removing almost all inlines, both from C files 
and headers. There are a few cases where inlining really helps: the 
function really ends up being just a few instructions, and it's really 
just a wrapper around a simpler calling convention or an inline assembly, 
or it's called with constant arguments that are better left off simplified 
at compile-time. Those are the cases where inlining really helps.

(Of course, then there's ia64. Which wants inlining just because..)

		Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:

> That's actually not a good practice. Two reasons:
>
>  - debuggability goes way down. Oops reports give a much nicer call-chain 
>    and better locality for uninlined code.

Right.

>  - Gcc can suck at big functions with lots of local variables. A 
>    function call can be _cheaper_ than trying to inline a function, 
>    regardless of whether it's called once or many times. I've seen 
>    functions that had several silly (and unnecessary) spills suddenly 
>    become quite readable when they were separate functions.

OTOH inlining helps much if both the caller and the called share the
same variables (values, calculated the same way from the same arguments).
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:

> > For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> > from one place.
> 
> That's actually not a good practice. Two reasons:
> 
>  - debuggability goes way down. Oops reports give a much nicer call-chain 
>    and better locality for uninlined code.

yes, and to improve debuggability, i often do this at the top of 
debugged .c modules:

	#undef inline
	#define inline

to get good stacktraces. So debuggability is i think another argument to 
further decouple 'inline' from 'always inline' - so a global .config 
DEBUG_ option could turn all inlines into real function calls. (we 
already have CONFIG_FRAME_POINTERS to improve stack-trace output, at the 
price of slightly slower code.)

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jan Engelhardt]

>* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:
>
>> > For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
>> > from one place.
>> 
>> That's actually not a good practice. Two reasons:
>> 
>>  - debuggability goes way down. Oops reports give a much nicer call-chain 
>>    and better locality for uninlined code.

When I want to debug, I use
CFLAGS="-O0 -ggdb3 -fno-inline -fno-omit-frame-pointer"
for that particular file(s). That sure gets good results. Not sure about 
who wins in the kernel case: always_inline or -fno-inline.



Jan Engelhardt
-- 

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

> >* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:
> >
> >> > For example, I add "inline" for static functions which are only called
> >> > from one place.
> >> 
> >> That's actually not a good practice. Two reasons:
> >> 
> >>  - debuggability goes way down. Oops reports give a much nicer call-chain 
> >>    and better locality for uninlined code.
> 
> When I want to debug, I use
> CFLAGS="-O0 -ggdb3 -fno-inline -fno-omit-frame-pointer"
> for that particular file(s). That sure gets good results. Not sure about 
> who wins in the kernel case: always_inline or -fno-inline.

This is totally not relevant.

99% of all bug-reports happen for non-developers. What developers can and 
can not do from a debuggability standpoint is almost totally 
uninteresting: quite often the developers won't even be able to recreate 
the bug, but have to go on the bug report that comes in from the outside.

And yes, some users are willing to recompile the kernel, and try ten 
different versions, and in general are just worth their weight in gold. 
But many people have trouble even reporting the (short) oops details, much 
less follow up on it. 

So it's actually important that the default config is reasonably easy to 
debug from the oops report. Because it may be the only thing you ever get.

So -O0 and -fno-inline simply isn't practical, because they are not an 
option for a normal kernel. 

		Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 11:37:21AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>...
> to say it loud and clear again: our current way of handling inlines is 
> _FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_. To me this means that fundamental changes are 
> needed for the _mechanics_ and meaning of inlines. We default to 'always 
> inline' which has a current information to noise ratio of 1:10 perhaps.  
> My patch changes the mechanics and meaning of inlines, and pretty much 
> anything else but a change to the meaning of inlines will still result 
> in the same scenario occuring over and over again.

Let's emphasize what we both agree on:
It is _FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_ that too much code is marked as
'always inline'.

We only disagree on how to achieve an improvement.

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andrew Morton]

Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 11:37:21AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >...
> > to say it loud and clear again: our current way of handling inlines is 
> > _FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_. To me this means that fundamental changes are 
> > needed for the _mechanics_ and meaning of inlines. We default to 'always 
> > inline' which has a current information to noise ratio of 1:10 perhaps.  
> > My patch changes the mechanics and meaning of inlines, and pretty much 
> > anything else but a change to the meaning of inlines will still result 
> > in the same scenario occuring over and over again.
> 
> Let's emphasize what we both agree on:
> It is _FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_ that too much code is marked as
> 'always inline'.
> 
> We only disagree on how to achieve an improvement.
> 

The best approach is to manually review and fix up all the inline statements.

We cannot just delete them all, because that would cause performance loss
for well-chosen inlinings when using gcc-3.

I'd be reluctant to trust gcc-4 to do the right thing in all cases.  If the
compiler fails to inline functions in certain critical cases we'll suffer
some performance loss and the source of that performance loss will be
utterly obscure.

If someone types `inline' into a piece of code then we want to inline the
function, dammit.  The fact that lots of people typed `inline' when they
shouldn't have is not a good argument for defeating (or adding uncertainty
to) manual inlining in well-developed and well-maintained code.

All those squillions of bogus inlines which you've identified are probably
mainly in code we just don't care about much.  We shouldn't penalise
well-maintained code because of legacy problems in less well-maintained
code.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> I'd be reluctant to trust gcc-4 to do the right thing in all cases.  If the
> compiler fails to inline functions in certain critical cases we'll suffer
> some performance loss and the source of that performance loss will be
> utterly obscure.

yet.. turning inline into a hint (which causes gcc to greatly bias
towards inlining without making it absolute) was also opposed by either
you or Linus. Forcing is ALSO wrong. For example it causes gcc to do
inlining even for functions that use variable sized arrays ;(

the performance loss potential should not be overstated; unless the code
can get a real advantage in optimizing due to constant arguments (eg the
kmalloc example), there is not much to gain from inlining. A "call" is 1
cycle at most normally, unless the code inside the inline is highly
trivial/small that's negligible. (eg anything that does port or mmio is
already 100x more expensive, as is anything that gets a cache-miss or a
branch predictor miss such as a loop). 

> All those squillions of bogus inlines which you've identified are probably
> mainly in code we just don't care about much.  We shouldn't penalise
> well-maintained code because of legacy problems in less well-maintained
> code.

this is not a correct assumption as far as I can see. Especially for
drivers, but also even for kernel/. I sent you a patch to fix the
biggest offenders, and I can do more of that of course. But to some
degree the end isn't in sight, esp if new code keeps introducing new
bogus inlines.

Maybe the right approach is to start rejecting in reviews new code that
uses inline inappropriately. (where "inappropriate" sort of is "more
than 3 lines of C unless there is some constant-optimizes-away trick")

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jörn Engel]

On Mon, 2 January 2006 19:49:06 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
> > I'd be reluctant to trust gcc-4 to do the right thing in all cases.  If the
> > compiler fails to inline functions in certain critical cases we'll suffer
> > some performance loss and the source of that performance loss will be
> > utterly obscure.
> 
> yet.. turning inline into a hint (which causes gcc to greatly bias
> towards inlining without making it absolute) was also opposed by either
> you or Linus. Forcing is ALSO wrong. For example it causes gcc to do
> inlining even for functions that use variable sized arrays ;(

I believe your example is a non-issue by Linus' terms.  AFAIR, he
always considered variable sized arrays a bug, when used for kernel
code.  Line of argument is something like this:

o If a variable-sized array has an unknown upper bound, the stack
  will explode.
o If the upper bound is well-known, using a fixed-size array works
  just as well.
o make checkstack is unable to interpret the function preamble in
  presence of alloca() or variable sized arrays.

The last point is from irc today, not from Linus.


Interestingly, Linus and Ingo/you are arguing similarly:

Linus: I don't want to allow sloppiness.  If you know the upper bound,
I force you to write it down explicitly by using a fixed-size array.

Ingo: I don't want to allow sloppiness.  Either the inline is required
and shall be written as always_inline, or it is not and should be
removed.

Disallowing sloppiness might be a good idea in both cases.  Along
those lines, "inline" is quite seductive to over-use by sloppy
developers.  "always_inline" or "in_this_rare_case_inline_makes_sense"
would at least force sloppy people to get second thoughts.

Jörn

-- 
Good warriors cause others to come to them and do not go to others.
-- Sun Tzu

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Grant Coady]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:49:06 +0100, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> wrote:

>Maybe the right approach is to start rejecting in reviews new code that
>uses inline inappropriately. (where "inappropriate" sort of is "more
>than 3 lines of C unless there is some constant-optimizes-away trick")

Well, I can own up to half a dozen inlines in a .c file, CodingStyle 
suggests to convert macros to static inline, so I did:

/* adm9240 internally scales voltage measurements */
static const u16 nom_mv[] = { 2500, 2700, 3300, 5000, 12000, 2700 };

static inline unsigned int IN_FROM_REG(u8 reg, int n)
{
        return SCALE(reg, nom_mv[n], 192);
}

static inline u8 IN_TO_REG(unsigned long val, int n)
{
        return SENSORS_LIMIT(SCALE(val, 192, nom_mv[n]), 0, 255);
}

/* temperature range: -40..125, 127 disables temperature alarm */
static inline s8 TEMP_TO_REG(long val)
{
        return SENSORS_LIMIT(SCALE(val, 1, 1000), -40, 127);
}

Are these typical targets for non-inline? 

Thanks,
Grant.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Antonio Vargas]

On 1/2/06, Grant Coady <grant_lkml@dodo.com.au> wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:49:06 +0100, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> wrote:
>
> >Maybe the right approach is to start rejecting in reviews new code that
> >uses inline inappropriately. (where "inappropriate" sort of is "more
> >than 3 lines of C unless there is some constant-optimizes-away trick")
>
> Well, I can own up to half a dozen inlines in a .c file, CodingStyle
> suggests to convert macros to static inline, so I did:
>
> /* adm9240 internally scales voltage measurements */
> static const u16 nom_mv[] = { 2500, 2700, 3300, 5000, 12000, 2700 };
>

[snip some static inline functons]

>
> Are these typical targets for non-inline?

according to the latest flamewars, maybe it would be better
to just turn the #defines into static functions instead on static inlines...
guess even better would be to just get CodingStyle fixed ASAP ;)

--
Greetz, Antonio Vargas aka winden of network

http://wind.codepixel.com/
windNOenSPAMntw@gmail.com
thesameasabove@amigascne.org

Every day, every year
you have to work
you have to study
you have to scene.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> > Are these typical targets for non-inline?

these are very simple 1 line things, and are the cases where inline is
just fine. The problem cases are the ones with a whole lot more than
that though, say 3 or more real code lines with things like loops or
udelays or ... There's 50+ line functions marked "inline". Those are the
"bad guys" not so much the simple 1 liners

> 
> according to the latest flamewars, maybe it would be better
> to just turn the #defines into static functions instead on static inlines...
> guess even better would be to just get CodingStyle fixed ASAP ;)

I proposed the following chunks:

Adds a bit of text to Documentation/Codingstyle to state that
inlining everything "just because" is a bad idea

Signed-off-by: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>

diff -purN linux-2.6.15-rc6/Documentation/CodingStyle linux-2.6.15-rc6-deinline/Documentation/CodingStyle
--- linux-2.6.15-rc6/Documentation/CodingStyle	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6-deinline/Documentation/CodingStyle	2005-12-30 13:31:13.000000000 +0100
@@ -344,7 +344,7 @@ Remember: if another thread can find you
 have a reference count on it, you almost certainly have a bug.
 
 
-		Chapter 11: Macros, Enums, Inline functions and RTL
+		Chapter 11: Macros, Enums and RTL
 
 Names of macros defining constants and labels in enums are capitalized.
 
@@ -429,7 +429,35 @@ from void pointer to any other pointer t
 language.
 
 
-		Chapter 14: References
+		Chapter 14: The inline disease
+
+There appears to be a common misperception that gcc has a magic "make me
+faster" ricing option called "inline". While the use of inlines can be
+appropriate (for example as a means of replacing macros, see Chapter 11), it
+very often is not. Abundant use of the inline keyword leads to a much bigger
+kernel, which in turn slows the system as a whole down, due to a bigger
+icache footprint for the CPU and simply because there is less memory
+available for the pagecache. Just think about it; a pagecache miss causes a
+disk seek, which easily takes 5 miliseconds. There are a LOT of cpu cycles
+that can go into these 5 miliseconds.
+
+A reasonable rule of thumb is to not put inline at functions that have more
+than 3 lines of code in them. An exception to this rule are the cases where
+a parameter is known to be a compiletime constant, and as a result of this
+constantness you *know* the compiler will be able to optimize most of your
+function away at compile time. For a good example of this later case, see
+the kmalloc() inline function.
+
+Often people argue that adding inline to functions that are static and used
+only once is always a win since there is no space tradeoff. While this is
+technically correct, gcc is capable of inlining these automatically without
+help, and the maintenance issue of removing the inline when a second user
+appears outweighs the potential value of the hint that tells gcc to do
+something it would have done anyway.
+
+
+
+		Chapter 15: References
 
 The C Programming Language, Second Edition
 by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie.
@@ -450,4 +478,4 @@ WG14 is the international standardizatio
 language C, URL: http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/
 
 --
-Last updated on 16 February 2004 by a community effort on LKML.
+Last updated on 30 December 2005 by a community effort on LKML.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Grant Coady]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:56:23 +0100, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> wrote:

>I proposed the following chunks:
>
>Adds a bit of text to Documentation/Codingstyle to state that
>inlining everything "just because" is a bad idea
>
>Signed-off-by: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>
>
>diff -purN linux-2.6.15-rc6/Documentation/CodingStyle linux-2.6.15-rc6-deinline/Documentation/CodingStyle
>--- linux-2.6.15-rc6/Documentation/CodingStyle	2005-10-28 02:02:08.000000000 +0200
>+++ linux-2.6.15-rc6-deinline/Documentation/CodingStyle	2005-12-30 13:31:13.000000000 +0100
>@@ -344,7 +344,7 @@ Remember: if another thread can find you
> have a reference count on it, you almost certainly have a bug.
> 
> 
>-		Chapter 11: Macros, Enums, Inline functions and RTL
>+		Chapter 11: Macros, Enums and RTL
> 
> Names of macros defining constants and labels in enums are capitalized.
> 
>@@ -429,7 +429,35 @@ from void pointer to any other pointer t
> language.
> 
> 
>-		Chapter 14: References
>+		Chapter 14: The inline disease
>+
>+There appears to be a common misperception that gcc has a magic "make me
>+faster" ricing option called "inline". While the use of inlines can be
          ^^^^^^--?? not sure what this is
>+appropriate (for example as a means of replacing macros, see Chapter 11), it
>+very often is not. Abundant use of the inline keyword leads to a much bigger
>+kernel, which in turn slows the system as a whole down, due to a bigger
>+icache footprint for the CPU and simply because there is less memory
>+available for the pagecache. Just think about it; a pagecache miss causes a
>+disk seek, which easily takes 5 miliseconds. There are a LOT of cpu cycles
>+that can go into these 5 miliseconds.
>+
>+A reasonable rule of thumb is to not put inline at functions that have more
>+than 3 lines of code in them. An exception to this rule are the cases where
>+a parameter is known to be a compiletime constant, and as a result of this
>+constantness you *know* the compiler will be able to optimize most of your
>+function away at compile time. For a good example of this later case, see
>+the kmalloc() inline function.
>+
>+Often people argue that adding inline to functions that are static and used
>+only once is always a win since there is no space tradeoff. While this is
>+technically correct, gcc is capable of inlining these automatically without
>+help, and the maintenance issue of removing the inline when a second user
>+appears outweighs the potential value of the hint that tells gcc to do
>+something it would have done anyway.

Seems sane, reasonable and mostly readable to me, thank you.

Grant.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Alan Cox]

On Maw, 2006-01-03 at 10:10 +1100, Grant Coady wrote:
> >+There appears to be a common misperception that gcc has a magic "make me
> >+faster" ricing option called "inline". While the use of inlines can be
>           ^^^^^^--?? not sure what this is

American car kiddy slang. Not appropriate for internationally read
documentation. Think "go faster stripes" etc.

Alan

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Grant Coady]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:57:53 +0000, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

>On Maw, 2006-01-03 at 10:10 +1100, Grant Coady wrote:
>> >+There appears to be a common misperception that gcc has a magic "make me
>> >+faster" ricing option called "inline". While the use of inlines can be
>>           ^^^^^^--?? not sure what this is
>
>American car kiddy slang. Not appropriate for internationally read
>documentation. Think "go faster stripes" etc.

"go faster stripes" works for me :o)  (from the land down under)

Cheers,
Grant.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Nick Piggin]

On Mon, 2006-01-02 at 10:28 -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> > We only disagree on how to achieve an improvement.
> > 
> 
> The best approach is to manually review and fix up all the inline statements.
> 

I agree with this. Turning off inlining in one big hit can punish
correct users of inline and may cause regressions.

Reducing inline abuse seems to be the easist possible case for
incremental patches, which is how we've always tried to do things.
Andrew (and others) have been reducing inlines for years and things
are going along in the right direction.

-- 
SUSE Labs, Novell Inc.



Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Martin J. Bligh]

Andrew Morton wrote:

>Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
>  
>
>>On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 11:37:21AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>...
>>>to say it loud and clear again: our current way of handling inlines is 
>>>_FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_. To me this means that fundamental changes are 
>>>needed for the _mechanics_ and meaning of inlines. We default to 'always 
>>>inline' which has a current information to noise ratio of 1:10 perhaps.  
>>>My patch changes the mechanics and meaning of inlines, and pretty much 
>>>anything else but a change to the meaning of inlines will still result 
>>>in the same scenario occuring over and over again.
>>>      
>>>
>>Let's emphasize what we both agree on:
>>It is _FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN_ that too much code is marked as
>>'always inline'.
>>
>>We only disagree on how to achieve an improvement.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>The best approach is to manually review and fix up all the inline statements.
>
>We cannot just delete them all, because that would cause performance loss
>for well-chosen inlinings when using gcc-3.
>
>I'd be reluctant to trust gcc-4 to do the right thing in all cases.  If the
>compiler fails to inline functions in certain critical cases we'll suffer
>some performance loss and the source of that performance loss will be
>utterly obscure.
>
>If someone types `inline' into a piece of code then we want to inline the
>function, dammit.  The fact that lots of people typed `inline' when they
>shouldn't have is not a good argument for defeating (or adding uncertainty
>to) manual inlining in well-developed and well-maintained code.
>
>All those squillions of bogus inlines which you've identified are probably
>mainly in code we just don't care about much.  We shouldn't penalise
>well-maintained code because of legacy problems in less well-maintained
>code.
>  
>

It seems odd to me that we're doing this by second-hand effect on
code size ... the objective of making the code smaller is to make it
run faster, right? So ... howcome there are no benchmark results
for this?

M.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Matt Mackall]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 03:40:59PM -0800, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
> It seems odd to me that we're doing this by second-hand effect on
> code size ... the objective of making the code smaller is to make it
> run faster, right? So ... howcome there are no benchmark results
> for this?

Because it's extremely hard to design a benchmark that will show a
significant change one way or the other for single kernel functions
that doesn't also make said functions unusually cache-hot. And part of
the presumed advantage of uninlining is that it leaves icache room for
random other code that you're _not_ benchmarking.

In other words, if it's not a microbenchmark, it generally can't be
measured, directly or indirectly. And if it is a microbenchmark, the
result is known to be biased.

In the rare case of functions that are extremely popular (like
spinlock and friends), we _can_ actually see small improvements in
macrobenchmarks like kernel compiles. So it's fairly reasonable to
assume that reducing icache footprint really does matter more than
cycle count and extrapolate that to other functions.

(Unfortunately, Zwane is an enemy of history and the URL for the
benchmarks he posted for out-of-line spinlock has gone stale.)

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Martin J. Bligh]

Matt Mackall wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 03:40:59PM -0800, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
>  
>
>>It seems odd to me that we're doing this by second-hand effect on
>>code size ... the objective of making the code smaller is to make it
>>run faster, right? So ... howcome there are no benchmark results
>>for this?
>>    
>>
>
>Because it's extremely hard to design a benchmark that will show a
>significant change one way or the other for single kernel functions
>that doesn't also make said functions unusually cache-hot. And part of
>the presumed advantage of uninlining is that it leaves icache room for
>random other code that you're _not_ benchmarking.
>
>In other words, if it's not a microbenchmark, it generally can't be
>measured, directly or indirectly. And if it is a microbenchmark, the
>result is known to be biased.
>  
>
Well, it's not just one function, is it? It'd seem that if you unlined
a whole bunch of stuff (according to this theory) then normal
macro-benchmarks would go faster? Otherwise it's all just rather
theoretical, is it not?

>In the rare case of functions that are extremely popular (like
>spinlock and friends), we _can_ actually see small improvements in
>macrobenchmarks like kernel compiles. So it's fairly reasonable to
>assume that reducing icache footprint really does matter more than
>cycle count and extrapolate that to other functions.
>  
>
Cool, that sounds good. How much are we talking about?
I didn't see that in the thread anywhere ... perhaps I just
missed it, sorry it got long ;-)

M.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Matt Mackall]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 09:51:17PM -0800, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
> Matt Mackall wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 03:40:59PM -0800, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
> > 
> >
> >>It seems odd to me that we're doing this by second-hand effect on
> >>code size ... the objective of making the code smaller is to make it
> >>run faster, right? So ... howcome there are no benchmark results
> >>for this?
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >Because it's extremely hard to design a benchmark that will show a
> >significant change one way or the other for single kernel functions
> >that doesn't also make said functions unusually cache-hot. And part of
> >the presumed advantage of uninlining is that it leaves icache room for
> >random other code that you're _not_ benchmarking.
> >
> >In other words, if it's not a microbenchmark, it generally can't be
> >measured, directly or indirectly. And if it is a microbenchmark, the
> >result is known to be biased.
> > 
> >
> Well, it's not just one function, is it? It'd seem that if you unlined
> a whole bunch of stuff (according to this theory) then normal
> macro-benchmarks would go faster? Otherwise it's all just rather
> theoretical, is it not?

Yes, if we uninline a big hunk of stuff, we should see results. But
which hunk? Running benchmarks w/ and w/o Ingo's 3 patches should be
educational. As would with -Os.

Also note that there are going to be cases where smaller wins by
orders of magnitude: where it makes the difference between the working
set fitting in cache or RAM or not.
 
> Cool, that sounds good. How much are we talking about?
> I didn't see that in the thread anywhere ... perhaps I just
> missed it, sorry it got long ;-)

The out of line spinlock stuff went by about a year ago. Google for
"zwane spinlock out of line".

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Linus Torvalds]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
>
> Well, it's not just one function, is it? It'd seem that if you unlined
> a whole bunch of stuff (according to this theory) then normal
> macro-benchmarks would go faster? Otherwise it's all just rather
> theoretical, is it not?

One of the problems with code size optimizations is that they 
fundamentally show much less impact under pretty much any traditional 
benchmark.

In user space, for example, the biggest impact of size optimization tends 
to be in things like load time and low-memory situations. Yet, that's 
never what is benchmarked (yeah, people will benchmark some low-memory 
kernel situations by compating different swap-out algorithms etc against 
each other - but they'll almost never compare the perceived speed of your 
desktop when you start swapping).

Now, I'll happily also admit that code and data _layout_ is often a lot 
more effective than just code size optimizations. That's especially true 
with low-memory situations where the page size being larger than many of 
the code sequences, you can make a bigger impact by changing utilization 
than by changing absolute size.

But even then it's actually really hard to measure. Cache effects tend to 
be hard _anyway_ to measure, it's really hard when the interesting case is 
the cold-cache case and can't even do simple microbenchmarks that repeat a 
million times to get stable results.

So the best we can usually do is "microbenchmarks don't show any 
noticeable _worse_ behaviour, and code size went down by 10%".

Just as an example: there's an old paper on the impact of the OS design on 
the memory subsystem, and one of the tables is about how many cycles per 
instruction is spent on cache effects (this was Ultrix vs Mach, the load 
was the average of a workload that was either specint or looked a lot 
like it).

			I$	D$

	Ultrix user:	0.07	0.08
	Mach user:	0.07	0.08
	Ultrix system:	0.43	0.23
	Mach system:	0.57	0.29

Now, that's an oldish paper, and we really don't care about Ultrix vs Mach 
nor about the particular hw (Decstation), but the same kind of basic 
numbers have been repeated over an over. Namely that system code tends to 
have very different behaviour from user code wrt caches. Caches may have 
gotten better, but code has gotten bigger, and cores have gotten faster.

And in particular, they tend to be _much_ worse. Something you'll seldom 
see as clearly in micro-benchmarks, if only because under those benchmarks 
things will generally be more cached - especially on the I$ side.

So I should probably try to find something slightly more modern, but what 
it boils down to is that at least one well-cited paper that is fairly easy 
to find claims that about _half_a_cycle_ for each instruction was spent on 
I$ misses in system code on a perfectly regular mix of programs. And that 
the cost of I$ was actually higher than the cost of D$ misses.

Now, most of the _time_ tends to be spent in user mode. That is probably 
part of the reason for why system mode gets higher cache misses (another 
is that obviously you'd hope that the user program can optimize for its 
particular memory usage, while the kernel can't). But the result remains: 
I$ miss time is a noticeable portion of system time.

Now, I claim that I$ miss overhead on a system would probably tend to have 
a pretty linear relationship with the size of the static code. There 
aren't that many big hot loops or small code that fits in the I$ to skew 
that trivial rule.

So at a total guess, and taking the above numbers (that are questionable, 
but hey, they should be ok as a starting point for WAGging), reducing code 
size by 10% should give about 0.007 cycles per instruction in user space. 
Whee. Not very noticeable. But on system code (the only thing the kernel 
can help), it's actually a much more visible 0.05 CPI.

Yeah, the math is bogus, the numbers may be irrelevant, but it does show 
why I$ should matter, even though it's much harder to measure.

			Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Martin Bligh]

 > ...
> But even then it's actually really hard to measure. Cache effects tend to 
> be hard _anyway_ to measure, it's really hard when the interesting case is 
> the cold-cache case and can't even do simple microbenchmarks that repeat a 
> million times to get stable results.
> 
> So the best we can usually do is "microbenchmarks don't show any 
> noticeable _worse_ behaviour, and code size went down by 10%".

OK, that makes a lot of sense to me. It was just worrying that nobody 
seemed to be measuring performance _at all_, just talking about code 
size, which is all very nice, but not really an end goal (for most 
systems). It seems to me like a simple tradeoff - cycles vs cache 
misses, and people seem to be only looking at one side.

I wasn't trying to say it was bad ... just seemed insufficently 
justified to me (at least regression tested, as you say).

> So at a total guess, and taking the above numbers (that are questionable, 
> but hey, they should be ok as a starting point for WAGging), reducing code 
> size by 10% should give about 0.007 cycles per instruction in user space. 
> Whee. Not very noticeable. But on system code (the only thing the kernel 
> can help), it's actually a much more visible 0.05 CPI.
> 
> Yeah, the math is bogus, the numbers may be irrelevant, but it does show 
> why I$ should matter, even though it's much harder to measure.

The IBM PPC people had some fancy way of measuring CPI and were very 
interested in it. Perhaps we can taunt them into helping measure things.

M.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Zwane Mwaikambo]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Matt Mackall wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 03:40:59PM -0800, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
> > It seems odd to me that we're doing this by second-hand effect on
> > code size ... the objective of making the code smaller is to make it
> > run faster, right? So ... howcome there are no benchmark results
> > for this?
> 
> Because it's extremely hard to design a benchmark that will show a
> significant change one way or the other for single kernel functions
> that doesn't also make said functions unusually cache-hot. And part of
> the presumed advantage of uninlining is that it leaves icache room for
> random other code that you're _not_ benchmarking.
> 
> In other words, if it's not a microbenchmark, it generally can't be
> measured, directly or indirectly. And if it is a microbenchmark, the
> result is known to be biased.
> 
> In the rare case of functions that are extremely popular (like
> spinlock and friends), we _can_ actually see small improvements in
> macrobenchmarks like kernel compiles. So it's fairly reasonable to
> assume that reducing icache footprint really does matter more than
> cycle count and extrapolate that to other functions.
> 
> (Unfortunately, Zwane is an enemy of history and the URL for the
> benchmarks he posted for out-of-line spinlock has gone stale.)

Hey i resent that :P luckily my ~ directory hasn't been cleaned in years, 
the following bonnie runs were based on an initial implementation, i was 
only able to conclude that there was no negative cost to out of lining. 
-cool is completely out of line.

-cool
Version  @version@      ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random-
                    -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks--
Machine        Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp4-000      7336M  5755  99 62465  40 11037  10  5384  94 73519  29 299.0   1
stp4-000      7336M  5777  99 67203  44 14018  13  5392  94 69436  27 300.2   1
stp4-000      7336M  5725  99 61389  40 19385  18  5196  91 75178  30 307.5   1
                    ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create--------
                    -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete--
files:max:min        /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp4-000        100    80  99 +++++ +++ 62151 100    80 100 +++++ +++   276 100
stp4-000        100    80  99 +++++ +++ 62775 100    81  99 +++++ +++   277 100
stp4-000        100    80  99 +++++ +++ 62857 100    80  99 +++++ +++   271 100

Version  @version@      ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random-
                    -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks--
Machine        Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp2-000         2G  7018  99 64560  36 21694  16  6789  97 43729  14 340.6   1
stp2-000         2G  7055  99 64836  39 21899  16  6752  97 44827  17 330.8   2
stp2-000         2G  7023  99 64525  38 22987  17  6704  96 44777  14 337.3   1
                    ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create--------
                    -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete--
files:max:min        /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp2-000        100    93  99 +++++ +++ 82831  99    94  99 +++++ +++   351  99
stp2-000        100    93  99 +++++ +++ 82211 100    94  99 +++++ +++   350  99
stp2-000        100    93  99 +++++ +++ 81940 100    94  99 +++++ +++   350  99

-mainline
Version  @version@      ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random-
                    -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks--
Machine        Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp4-000      7336M  5726  99 65615  42 10112   9  4854  85 70211  28 295.4   1
stp4-000      7336M  5764  99 64931  43 13884  13  5242  93 67963  27 302.5   1
stp4-000      7336M  5748  99 68806  46 18061  17  5139  91 70335  28 310.0   1
                    ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create--------
                    -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete--
files:max:min        /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp4-000        100    80  99 +++++ +++ 60958  99    79  99 +++++ +++   282 100
stp4-000        100    79  99 +++++ +++ 60120 100    80  99 +++++ +++   275 100
stp4-000        100    80  99 +++++ +++ 62174  99    81 100 +++++ +++   278 100

Version  @version@      ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random-
                    -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks--
Machine        Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp2-000         2G  7048  99 64912  38 22510  17  6732  96 43900  14 332.0   1
stp2-000         2G  7018  99 63821  39 21732  16  6787  97 44889  17 326.7   2
stp2-000         2G  7063  99 63834  38 22361  17  6738  97 43310  14 338.3   1
                    ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create--------
                    -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete--
files:max:min        /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP  /sec %CP
stp2-000        100    93  99 +++++ +++ 80963 100    94  99 +++++ +++   344  99
stp2-000        100    93  99 +++++ +++ 80998  99    94  99 +++++ +++   348  99
stp2-000        100    93  99 +++++ +++ 81237 100    94  99 +++++ +++   349  99

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Kurt Wall]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 03:03:22AM +0100, Tim Schmielau took 0 lines to write:

>    http://www.physik3.uni-rostock.de/tim/kernel/2.6/deinline.patch.gz
> The resulting kernel actually booted (am running it right now). However, 
> catching just these low-hanging fruits doesn't get me anywhere near 
> Arjan's numbers. For my non-representative personal config I get (on 
> i386 with -unit-at-a-time):
> 
>    > size vmlinux*
>       text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
>    2197105  386568  316840 2900513  2c4221 vmlinux
>    2144453  392100  316840 2853393  2b8a11 vmlinux.deinline

For two more datapoints, also from an x86_64 2.6.15-rc7 kernel, here
are the values for my main desktop .config and an allyesconfig .config.
The .deinline kernels have the above patch applied and are also built
with CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE=y.

$ size vmlinux.krw*
   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
2338371  462208  479920 3280499  320e73 vmlinux.krw
2309384  468168  479920 3257472  31b480 vmlinux.krw.deinline

.text is only 1.24% smaller

For an allyesconfig, the results are slightly worse:

$ size vmlinux*
   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
24076648        7465782 1996904 33539334        1ffc506 vmlinux
23791161        7513590 1996904 33301655        1fc2497 vmlinux.deinline

.text is only 1.19% smaller

Kurt
-- 
Nothing cures insomnia like the realization that it's time to get up.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Arjan van de Ven wrote:

> Some data from an x86-64 allyesconfig build.
> 
> 25573            cfi_build_cmd                   [108]   <245>

Beware this one.  The CFI code is not realistically ever used with 
everything set to y in real life scenarios.  In fact, when only the 
needed buswidth and interleave option are selected then this particular 
inlined function gets reduced to a simple constant, such as 0x00700070 
for example.

However if gcc wasn't forced to always inline, then in the allyesconfig 
this function would benefit from being uninlined automatically.


Nicolas

userspace breakage

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 12:49:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
 
 > Umm.. Complain more. I upgrade kernels a lot more often than I upgrade 
 > distros, and things don't break. They're not allowed to break, because I 
 > refuse to upgrade my user programs just because I do kernel development. 
 > But I'd only notice a small part of user space, so if people don't 
 > complain, they break not because we don't care, but because we didn't even 
 > know.
 > 
 > So if you have a user program that breaks, _complain_. It's really not 
 > supposed to happen outside of perhaps kernel module loaders etc things 
 > that get really really chummy with kernel internals (and even that was 
 > fixed: the modern way of loading modules isn't that chummy any more, so 
 > hopefully we'll not need to break even module loaders again).
 > 
 > If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally 
 > unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even 
 > have realized it broke.
 > 
 > At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers 
 > that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply 
 > isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning.

The udev situation I mentioned has been known about for at least a month,
probably longer. With old udev, we don't get /dev/input/event* created
with 2.6.15rc.

At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug,
alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep
with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading
your userspace.

Seriously, I (and many others) have been complaining about this
for months. (Pretty much every time the "Please can we have a 2.7"
thread comes up). [note, that I actually prefer the 'new' approach
to development in 2.6, what I object to is that at the same time we
threw out the 'lets be careful about not breaking userspace' mantra.]

Just a few years ago, if someone suggested breaking a userspace
app in a kernel upgrade, they'd be crucified on linux-kernel, now
it's 'the norm').

		Dave

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

The breakage issue is ridiculous, assinine, and unnecessary. I have been 
porting dsfs to the various releases over the past month,
and the breakage of user space, usb, nfs, memory management, is beyond 
absurd. Instead of constantly breaking the
interfaces in Linux, why not tell people **NO** every time they try to 
rewrite the memory management, etc.

Instead of creating new capabilities and features, everyone seems hell 
bent on rewriting the same stale, mouldy, boring sections
of the OS over and over again. So how many times does the memory manage 
and slab allocator need to get rewritten. Or how many
times does the vfs need to get broken over and over again.

This bullshit is killing Linux, it's too much work to keep up with 
breakage, most of which is INTENTIONAL and NEEDLESS.

STOP STOP STOP!!!

I can't even apply a kdb patch between . releases of the kernel without 
seeing major breakage between Kprobes and some other
BS someone decides to change for no other reason than THEY CAN DO IT. I 
have seen memory corruption in the rrecent kernels.
When a component of the OS is finished, then leave it the hell alone.

The only NEW features in Linux are more drivers and more processors. 
Most of what's been going on in the development over the
past few months has been unnecessary breakage. If you are trying to get 
people to stay off Linux as a stable platform, you are all
succeeding.

Jeff

Dave Jones wrote:

>On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 12:49:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> > Umm.. Complain more. I upgrade kernels a lot more often than I upgrade 
> > distros, and things don't break. They're not allowed to break, because I 
> > refuse to upgrade my user programs just because I do kernel development. 
> > But I'd only notice a small part of user space, so if people don't 
> > complain, they break not because we don't care, but because we didn't even 
> > know.
> > 
> > So if you have a user program that breaks, _complain_. It's really not 
> > supposed to happen outside of perhaps kernel module loaders etc things 
> > that get really really chummy with kernel internals (and even that was 
> > fixed: the modern way of loading modules isn't that chummy any more, so 
> > hopefully we'll not need to break even module loaders again).
> > 
> > If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally 
> > unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even 
> > have realized it broke.
> > 
> > At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers 
> > that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply 
> > isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning.
>
>The udev situation I mentioned has been known about for at least a month,
>probably longer. With old udev, we don't get /dev/input/event* created
>with 2.6.15rc.
>
>At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug,
>alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep
>with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading
>your userspace.
>
>Seriously, I (and many others) have been complaining about this
>for months. (Pretty much every time the "Please can we have a 2.7"
>thread comes up). [note, that I actually prefer the 'new' approach
>to development in 2.6, what I object to is that at the same time we
>threw out the 'lets be careful about not breaking userspace' mantra.]
>
>Just a few years ago, if someone suggested breaking a userspace
>app in a kernel upgrade, they'd be crucified on linux-kernel, now
>it's 'the norm').
>
>		Dave
>
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>
>  
>

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> 
> The breakage issue is ridiculous, assinine, and unnecessary. I have been
> porting dsfs to the various releases over the past month, and the
> breakage of user space, usb, nfs, memory management, is beyond absurd.

We're not talking about internal kernel stuff. Internal kernel stuff 
_does_ get changed, and we dont' care about breakage of out-of-kernel 
stuff. That's fundamental.

		Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Linus Torvalds wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>  
>
>>The breakage issue is ridiculous, assinine, and unnecessary. I have been
>>porting dsfs to the various releases over the past month, and the
>>breakage of user space, usb, nfs, memory management, is beyond absurd.
>>    
>>
>
>We're not talking about internal kernel stuff. Internal kernel stuff 
>_does_ get changed, and we dont' care about breakage of out-of-kernel 
>stuff. That's fundamental.
>  
>

Start caring. People spend lots of money supporting you, and what you 
are doing. How about taking some
responsibility for that so they don't change their minds and move back 
to windows or pull their support because it's too
costly or too much of a hassle to produce something stable from these 
releases. If you export functions from the kernel,
don't break them. Don't let these numbnuts keep breaking things that 
shouldn't be broken, i.e. memory manager (now that's a
big one). If you replace a subsystem with a newer one, keep a mapping 
layer through at least the next .<even> release
i.e. 2.4 -> 2.6 (this is reasonable and expected -- you can drop things 
but you should only do it on well understood
boundries). Don't let these people break everything every other 
incremental release.

I have a family too Linus and I like to spend my evenings with them 
rather then unwinding Olaf's bugs in NFS (the most
recent one). Think about "free and easy" and about making peoples lives 
a little easier to support code on your platform
rather then expecting the rest of the planet to clean up everyone's 
messes and sloppiness.

Jeff





>		Linus
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>
>  
>

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > We're not talking about internal kernel stuff. Internal kernel stuff _does_
> > get changed, and we dont' care about breakage of out-of-kernel stuff. That's
> > fundamental.
> 
> Start caring. People spend lots of money supporting you, and what you are
> doing. How about taking some responsibility for that [...]

Cry me a river, Jeff.

The kernel is GPL'd. That's my responsibility. Source code. Stuff that 
comes to me as patches. That's my job, and that's what I get paid for. In 
fact, my contract says that I _cannot_ work on anything that isn't open 
source.

Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.

Neither is worth a _second_ of anybodys time trying to support, and when 
you say "people spend lots of money supporting you", you're lying through 
your teeth. The GPL-avoiding kind of people don't spend a dime supporting 
me, they spend their money actively trying to debase and destroy what I 
and thousands of others have been working our butts off for.

So don't try to make it sound like something it isn't. We support outside 
projects a hell of a lot better than we'd need to, and I can tell you that 
it's mostly _me_ who does that. Most of the core kernel developers argue 
that I should support less of it - and yes, they are backed up by lawyers 
at their (sometimes quite big) companies.

So be honest now. Are those projects you care about going to be GPL'd and 
actively pushed back into the standard kernel?

And if they aren't, SHUT THE HELL UP, because they are total freeloaders, 
and claimign that they "support" me is total crap.

			Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Linus Torvalds wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>  
>
>>Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>We're not talking about internal kernel stuff. Internal kernel stuff _does_
>>>get changed, and we dont' care about breakage of out-of-kernel stuff. That's
>>>fundamental.
>>>      
>>>
>>Start caring. People spend lots of money supporting you, and what you are
>>doing. How about taking some responsibility for that [...]
>>    
>>
>
>Cry me a river, Jeff.
>
>The kernel is GPL'd. That's my responsibility. Source code. Stuff that 
>comes to me as patches. That's my job, and that's what I get paid for. In 
>fact, my contract says that I _cannot_ work on anything that isn't open 
>source.
>
>Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
>that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.
>
>Neither is worth a _second_ of anybodys time trying to support, and when 
>you say "people spend lots of money supporting you", you're lying through 
>your teeth. The GPL-avoiding kind of people don't spend a dime supporting 
>me, they spend their money actively trying to debase and destroy what I 
>and thousands of others have been working our butts off for.
>  
>

The fact that Oracle and IBM support apps on Linux are Freeloading? Baloney!
Linux benefits by having the choice of al these applications.

(P.S. I have heard through the grapevine IBM is putting emphasis on AIX
as their platform and are actively telling this to large customers -- 
can you verify this
and are you aware of it)

>So don't try to make it sound like something it isn't. We support outside 
>projects a hell of a lot better than we'd need to, and I can tell you that 
>it's mostly _me_ who does that. Most of the core kernel developers argue 
>that I should support less of it - and yes, they are backed up by lawyers 
>at their (sometimes quite big) companies.
>
>So be honest now. Are those projects you care about going to be GPL'd and 
>actively pushed back into the standard kernel?
>
>And if they aren't, SHUT THE HELL UP, because they are total freeloaders, 
>and claimign that they "support" me is total crap.
>  
>

Commercial applications support gives Linux "network effect" (economic term)
and thus clout and credibility. Protect this -- its in **OUR** interests.

Jeff

>			Linus
>
>  
>

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> 
> The fact that Oracle and IBM support apps on Linux are Freeloading? Baloney!

Jeff, give it a rest.

Oracle and IBM haven't been complaining, have they? Oracle mostly does 
user-space stuff (that doesn't change), and has been pretty good about 
their Oracle-fs too - they're even actively discussing "git" issues on the 
git mailing list, and asking for help, and just generally being good 
members of the community.

And IBM engineers are part of the people who change internal kernel 
interfaces in order to make it work better for them.

Pretty much the ONLY people who ever complain about those internal kernel 
interfaces changing are the free-loaders. It's hard for them, because they 
don't want to play according to the rules. Tough. Watch me not care:

   [ Linus sits in his chair, patently not caring ]

See?

		Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Linus Torvalds wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>  
>
>>The fact that Oracle and IBM support apps on Linux are Freeloading? Baloney!
>>    
>>
>
>Jeff, give it a rest.
>
>Oracle and IBM haven't been complaining, have they? Oracle mostly does 
>user-space stuff (that doesn't change), and has been pretty good about 
>their Oracle-fs too - they're even actively discussing "git" issues on the 
>git mailing list, and asking for help, and just generally being good 
>members of the community.
>
>And IBM engineers are part of the people who change internal kernel 
>interfaces in order to make it work better for them.
>
>Pretty much the ONLY people who ever complain about those internal kernel 
>interfaces changing are the free-loaders. It's hard for them, because they 
>don't want to play according to the rules. Tough. Watch me not care:
>
>   [ Linus sits in his chair, patently not caring ]
>
>See?
>  
>

I went to New Mexico for Christmas to see my 100 year old Cherokee 
Grandmother.
After reading all the junk on the internet about me people have written 
about me and this
whole mess with Linux, she offered two very wise comments:

1. "When people say or write things about you, its a reflection on them, 
and not you."

2. (looking at me intensely) "The cure for stupidity is silence."

So I have to say, if you feel those who write applications for Linux are 
freeloaders
(I take this to mean a freeloader is someone who doesn't give you their 
IP but
uses the Linux platform to sell vertical apps), then you are saying you 
don't
care about supporting vendors who commercialize Linux (expect those who
give you back IP or money).

I think I got this right. Did I miss anything?

You don't have to respond. Remember the cure for stupidity is silence.

[Jeff sitting in char also not caring but trying to cure his stupidity 
by being silent]

Jeff :-)



>		Linus
>
>  
>

Re: userspace breakage

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

> 1. "When people say or write things about you, its a reflection on them, 
> and not you."
> 
> 2. (looking at me intensely) "The cure for stupidity is silence."

Your grandmother gave you very wise advise indeed.

You might want to consider how her comments apply to
your own site, http://www.merkeylaw.com/ ...

-- 
All Rights Reversed

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Rik van Riel wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>  
>
>>1. "When people say or write things about you, its a reflection on them, 
>>and not you."
>>
>>2. (looking at me intensely) "The cure for stupidity is silence."
>>    
>>
>
>Your grandmother gave you very wise advise indeed.
>
>You might want to consider how her comments apply to
>your own site, http://www.merkeylaw.com/ ...
>
>  
>
Point well made. Dan Lyons at Forbes suggested when you are stalked, the 
best course of
action is to expose them. I have noticed a complete cessation of hate 
mail since it went up.
Instead of getting dozens of hate mails, now I get none. I'll take it 
down when it stops
altogether. I have no idea have these people got the impression I am 
anti-Linux. I am as much
a member of the community as anyone else, and I plan to keep working on 
Linux (and other
projects) for a long time to come.

Jeff

Re: userspace breakage

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:54 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
[....]
> The fact that Oracle and IBM support apps on Linux are Freeloading? Baloney!
> Linux benefits by having the choice of al these applications.

Do they have binary-only kernel modules or user-space apps?

> (P.S. I have heard through the grapevine IBM is putting emphasis on AIX
> as their platform and are actively telling this to large customers -- 
> can you verify this and are you aware of it)

Not knwoing any inner IBM things, the simple commercial explanation is:
If a customer buys AIX, he is forced to buy the hardware at IBM. And IBM
is a hardware selling (and consulting) company anyways, it never was a
"software company".

	Bernd
-- 
Firmix Software GmbH                   http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156                 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
          Embedded Linux Development and Services

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:

>On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:54 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>[....]
>  
>
>>The fact that Oracle and IBM support apps on Linux are Freeloading? Baloney!
>>Linux benefits by having the choice of al these applications.
>>    
>>
>
>Do they have binary-only kernel modules or user-space apps?
>
>  
>
>>(P.S. I have heard through the grapevine IBM is putting emphasis on AIX
>>as their platform and are actively telling this to large customers -- 
>>can you verify this and are you aware of it)
>>    
>>
>
>Not knwoing any inner IBM things, the simple commercial explanation is:
>If a customer buys AIX, he is forced to buy the hardware at IBM. And IBM
>is a hardware selling (and consulting) company anyways, it never was a
>"software company".
>  
>

The lawsuit is impacting their sales finally.  They are telling this to 
folks they are moving off Linux long term.  I don't know
if it's a smoke screen due to the lawsuit or an actual technical 
business decision.  I would guess they are making a back door
to pull out if the lawsuit goes south.  Looks like it might be based on 
filings on the 12/22 but I don't know for certain.

Jeff

>	Bernd
>  
>

Re: userspace breakage

[Steven Rostedt]

On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:

> Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
> that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.

(c) So damn specialized that it's not worth even trying to merge.
That's my camp. I'm modifying the kernel so damn much, that I'm doing
special things for a special purpose, that is so intrusive that I'd be
laughed out of LKML if I tried to merge it.

But as for kernel API breakage... hmm, don't care very much.  Since
everything from the kernel to the apps running on this kernel is all
very customized, I pretty much make up my own API.

I _do_ care about kernel bugs that creep in.  Since I built my stuff on
top of Ingo's RT patch, my debugging goes like this.

1) is this a problem with my changes?
  if yes then fix it.
  if no, continue to number 2.

2) is this a bug in the rt patch?
  if yes, fix it and send patch to Ingo.
  if no, continue to number 3.

3) Must be bug with Linus kernel.
  fix it and send patch to LKML, and try to get it in.

I've had a couple of 3's and you've seen those from me.  So although you
may not be getting the added work I'm doing (you most likely don't even
want it), at least people like me do help out by doing number 3.

-- Steve

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> > Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
> > that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.
> 
> (c) So damn specialized that it's not worth even trying to merge.
> That's my camp. I'm modifying the kernel so damn much, that I'm doing
> special things for a special purpose, that is so intrusive that I'd be
> laughed out of LKML if I tried to merge it.

Well, that falls under (a) in my opinion.

Some "damn specialized" stuff has actually ended up being merged. It's 
rare, but it happens. The VFS dentry layer is an example of a crazy 
experimental thing that I liked the concept of so much that I merged it, 
and it paid pack handsomely.

So there's just different classes of (a) - ranging from the "not just 
ready yet" to "crazy strange stuff that might never be" ;)

> I _do_ care about kernel bugs that creep in.

Yeah, that goes pretty much without saying.

> I've had a couple of 3's and you've seen those from me.  So although you
> may not be getting the added work I'm doing (you most likely don't even
> want it), at least people like me do help out by doing number 3.

Sometimes the "crazy experimental stuff" ends up being useful even if 
never merged: it gives people ideas of other things to try, and maybe we 
later end up merging something that was inspired by something totally 
crazy. 

So I think the strange specialized stuff can end up being useful in many 
ways, both directly and indirectly.

		Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Andrew Morton]

Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> > Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
> > that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.
> 
> (c) So damn specialized that it's not worth even trying to merge.

Or drivers for highly specialised/customised hardware.

Re: userspace breakage

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 15:49 -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > 
> > > Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
> > > that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.
> > 
> > (c) So damn specialized that it's not worth even trying to merge.
> 
> Or drivers for highly specialised/customised hardware.

that's not really an excuse.. there's drivers in the tree for which only
4 boards ever existed. There still is value in having those in the tree,
if only for the "other side" of the API to be able to see usage
patterns...

Re: userspace breakage

[Steven Rostedt]

On Sat, 2005-12-31 at 09:33 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 15:49 -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Stuff outside the kernel is almost always either (a) experimental stuff 
> > > > that just isn't ready to be merged or (b) tries to avoid the GPL.
> > > 
> > > (c) So damn specialized that it's not worth even trying to merge.
> > 
> > Or drivers for highly specialised/customised hardware.
> 
> that's not really an excuse.. there's drivers in the tree for which only
> 4 boards ever existed. There still is value in having those in the tree,
> if only for the "other side" of the API to be able to see usage
> patterns...

Yeah, but maybe Andrew isn't even talking about those boards.  I know
when I worked for Lockheed, they had a bunch of custom boards that were
for one specific project.  There would really be no point in pushing a
driver into the mainline that is used by one board for one project.

But then again, I'm not Andrew, and maybe he _is_ talking about the
drivers used by only four boards.

-- Steve

Re: userspace breakage

[Francois Romieu]

Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> :
[...]
> Yeah, but maybe Andrew isn't even talking about those boards.  I know
> when I worked for Lockheed, they had a bunch of custom boards that were
> for one specific project.  There would really be no point in pushing a
> driver into the mainline that is used by one board for one project.

If the board is not based on a custom asic, there is a point.

-- 
Ueimor

Re: userspace breakage

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 15:17 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
[...]
> Start caring. People spend lots of money supporting you, and what you 
> are doing. How about taking some
> responsibility for that so they don't change their minds and move back 
> to windows or pull their support because it's too
> costly or too much of a hassle to produce something stable from these 
> releases. If you export functions from the kernel,

The "program a driver once, runs on every windows in the future" is
actually a myth. Talk to developers with windows drivers ....
It is just that the companies absolutely don't have a choice if MSFT
changes something ....

	Bernd
-- 
Firmix Software GmbH                   http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156                 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
          Embedded Linux Development and Services

Re: userspace breakage

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:

>On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 15:17 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>[...]
>  
>
>>Start caring. People spend lots of money supporting you, and what you 
>>are doing. How about taking some
>>responsibility for that so they don't change their minds and move back 
>>to windows or pull their support because it's too
>>costly or too much of a hassle to produce something stable from these 
>>releases. If you export functions from the kernel,
>>    
>>
>
>The "program a driver once, runs on every windows in the future" is
>actually a myth. Talk to developers with windows drivers ....
>It is just that the companies absolutely don't have a choice if MSFT
>changes something ....
>
>	Bernd
>  
>
I support and write FS drivers for windows.   The same driver works on 
2002, 2002, 2003, and XP.  Longhorn have changed two IFS functions
and that's it, and still loads the older fs drivers through a compat 
interface.

Jeff

Re: userspace breakage

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 07:53 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> >On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 15:17 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> >[...]
> >>Start caring. People spend lots of money supporting you, and what you 
> >>are doing. How about taking some
> >>responsibility for that so they don't change their minds and move back 
> >>to windows or pull their support because it's too
> >>costly or too much of a hassle to produce something stable from these 
> >>releases. If you export functions from the kernel,
> >
> >The "program a driver once, runs on every windows in the future" is
> >actually a myth. Talk to developers with windows drivers ....
> >It is just that the companies absolutely don't have a choice if MSFT
> >changes something ....
> >
> I support and write FS drivers for windows.   The same driver works on 
> 2002, 2002, 2003, and XP.  Longhorn have changed two IFS functions

Which are basically 2 stable versions (2000 & XP).
No 3.1, 95 and 98 support before?
Apart from that there are other drivers as FS drivers too.

> and that's it, and still loads the older fs drivers through a compat 
> interface.


	Bernd
-- 
Firmix Software GmbH                   http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156                 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
          Embedded Linux Development and Services

Re: userspace breakage

[Ismail Donmez]

Cuma 30 Aralık 2005 00:41 tarihinde, Dave Jones şunları yazmıştı: 
[...]
> The udev situation I mentioned has been known about for at least a month,
> probably longer. With old udev, we don't get /dev/input/event* created
> with 2.6.15rc.
>
> At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev,
> hotplug, alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept
> in lockstep with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not
> upgrading your userspace.
>
> Seriously, I (and many others) have been complaining about this
> for months. (Pretty much every time the "Please can we have a 2.7"
> thread comes up). [note, that I actually prefer the 'new' approach
> to development in 2.6, what I object to is that at the same time we
> threw out the 'lets be careful about not breaking userspace' mantra.]
>
> Just a few years ago, if someone suggested breaking a userspace
> app in a kernel upgrade, they'd be crucified on linux-kernel, now
> it's 'the norm').

We had two userspace wireless monitoring program depending 
on /sys/class/net/<device name>/wireless directory to be present and now its 
gone in 2.6.15 and I can't find one line of changelog where its gone or 
why. /sys seems to be the mostly abused part of kernel-userspace relationship 
with changing paths,names and now disappearing directories....

Regards,
ismail

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Dave Jones wrote:
> 
> At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug,
> alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep
> with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading
> your userspace.

Hmm.. Time for some re-indoctrination?

We really shouldn't allow that. I know who to blame for udev, who else 
should I complain to?

> Just a few years ago, if someone suggested breaking a userspace
> app in a kernel upgrade, they'd be crucified on linux-kernel, now
> it's 'the norm').

That really isn't acceptable. Breaking user space - even things that are 
"close" to the kernel like udev scripts and alsa-lib, really is NOT a good 
idea.

We're much better off wasting a bit of time on backwards compatibility, 
than wasting a lot of user time and irritation (and indirectly, developer 
time) on linkages to packages outside the kernel.

If you cannot upgrade a kernel without ugrading some user package, that 
should be considered a real bug and a regression.

There are real technical reasons for not allowing those kinds of version 
linkages: it makes it MUCH harder to blame the right thing when things go 
wrong. 

Now, I'm not saying that we can always support everything that goes on in 
user space forever, but dammit, we can try damn hard.

(Somehow I'm not surprised about alsa. I think the whole alsa release 
process has always sucked. Dang).

			Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 02:56:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:

 > That really isn't acceptable. Breaking user space - even things that are 
 > "close" to the kernel like udev scripts and alsa-lib, really is NOT a good 
 > idea.
 > 
 > If you cannot upgrade a kernel without ugrading some user package, that 
 > should be considered a real bug and a regression.

I'm glad you agree.  I've decided to try something different once 2.6.16
is out.  Every day, I'm going to push the -git snapshot of the day into
a testing branch for Fedora users. (Normally, only rawhide[1] users 
get to test kernel-de-jour, and this always has the latest userspace, so
we don't notice problems until a kernel point release and the stable
distro gets an update).

It'll come with disclaimers up the whazoo about it possibly crashing,
eating your cat etc, but I bet some loonies will be mad enough to
try it, and report when it crashes and burns. This should at least
get us knowing about *when* we break things sooner.

During 2.6.16rc, expect more screaming.

		Dave

[1] For non-Red Hat savvy, rawhide=='fedora development branch'

Re: userspace breakage

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 06:03:07PM -0500, Dave Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 02:56:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
>  > That really isn't acceptable. Breaking user space - even things that are 
>  > "close" to the kernel like udev scripts and alsa-lib, really is NOT a good 
>  > idea.
>  > 
>  > If you cannot upgrade a kernel without ugrading some user package, that 
>  > should be considered a real bug and a regression.
> 
> I'm glad you agree.  I've decided to try something different once 2.6.16
> is out.  Every day, I'm going to push the -git snapshot of the day into
> a testing branch for Fedora users. (Normally, only rawhide[1] users 
> get to test kernel-de-jour, and this always has the latest userspace, so
> we don't notice problems until a kernel point release and the stable
> distro gets an update).

Ah, nice idea, I'll try to set up the same thing for Gentoo's kernels.
Hopefully the expanded coverage will help...

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: userspace breakage

[Dave Jones]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 12:28:53PM -0800, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:

 > > I'm glad you agree.  I've decided to try something different once 2.6.16
 > > is out.  Every day, I'm going to push the -git snapshot of the day into
 > > a testing branch for Fedora users. (Normally, only rawhide[1] users 
 > > get to test kernel-de-jour, and this always has the latest userspace, so
 > > we don't notice problems until a kernel point release and the stable
 > > distro gets an update).
 > 
 > Ah, nice idea, I'll try to set up the same thing for Gentoo's kernels.
 > Hopefully the expanded coverage will help...

Cool, lets see which distro has the largest suicide-squad :-P

		Dave

Re: userspace breakage

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

On 1/3/06, Dave Jones <davej@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 12:28:53PM -0800, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
>
>  > > I'm glad you agree.  I've decided to try something different once 2.6.16
>  > > is out.  Every day, I'm going to push the -git snapshot of the day into
>  > > a testing branch for Fedora users. (Normally, only rawhide[1] users
>  > > get to test kernel-de-jour, and this always has the latest userspace, so
>  > > we don't notice problems until a kernel point release and the stable
>  > > distro gets an update).
>  >
>  > Ah, nice idea, I'll try to set up the same thing for Gentoo's kernels.
>  > Hopefully the expanded coverage will help...

Greg,
did you manage for doing the same for Gentoo?

If so, what's the approach? Is Gentoo now shipping pre-compiled -git
vanilla kernels as well?

--
Paolo

Re: userspace breakage

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 12:00:39AM +0100, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
> On 1/3/06, Dave Jones <davej@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 12:28:53PM -0800, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> >
> >  > > I'm glad you agree.  I've decided to try something different once 2.6.16
> >  > > is out.  Every day, I'm going to push the -git snapshot of the day into
> >  > > a testing branch for Fedora users. (Normally, only rawhide[1] users
> >  > > get to test kernel-de-jour, and this always has the latest userspace, so
> >  > > we don't notice problems until a kernel point release and the stable
> >  > > distro gets an update).
> >  >
> >  > Ah, nice idea, I'll try to set up the same thing for Gentoo's kernels.
> >  > Hopefully the expanded coverage will help...
> 
> Greg,
> did you manage for doing the same for Gentoo?

As there wasn't a more recent kernel than 2.6.15 until a few hours ago,
no I haven't done this yet :)

> If so, what's the approach? Is Gentoo now shipping pre-compiled -git
> vanilla kernels as well?

Gentoo doesn't ship anything "pre-compiled" :)

Well, ok, I guess it does with the -bin packages...

I was just going to build a -git kernel ebuild and let users update
that.  But maybe I should start building pre-built kernels, I'll take it
to the gentoo-dev list, as this isn't a linux-kernel specific thing.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: userspace breakage

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 02:56:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Dave Jones wrote:
>...
> > Just a few years ago, if someone suggested breaking a userspace
> > app in a kernel upgrade, they'd be crucified on linux-kernel, now
> > it's 'the norm').
> 
> That really isn't acceptable. Breaking user space - even things that are 
> "close" to the kernel like udev scripts and alsa-lib, really is NOT a good 
> idea.
> 
> We're much better off wasting a bit of time on backwards compatibility, 
> than wasting a lot of user time and irritation (and indirectly, developer 
> time) on linkages to packages outside the kernel.
> 
> If you cannot upgrade a kernel without ugrading some user package, that 
> should be considered a real bug and a regression.
> 
> There are real technical reasons for not allowing those kinds of version 
> linkages: it makes it MUCH harder to blame the right thing when things go 
> wrong. 
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that we can always support everything that goes on in 
> user space forever, but dammit, we can try damn hard.
>...

Was it a mistake to drop support for ipfwadm and ipchains?
Was it a mistake to drop support for devsfs?
Will it be a mistake to drop support for gcc < 3.2?
Will it be a mistake to remove the obsolete raw driver?
Will it be a mistake to drop the Video4Linux API 1 ioctls?
Will it be a mistake to drop support for pcmcia-cs?
...

And if any of these was or will not be a mistake, when is the right time  
for the userspace breakage?

I did agree with what you express before support for ipchains was 
removed and support for devfs was removed, and many more I do not 
remember currently, but I've now simply accepted that regarding kernel 
development, 6 is an odd number.

The fundamental problem is that the current development model 
contains no well-defined points where breakages of the kernel-related 
userspace were allowed and expected by users.

> 			Linus

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > 
> > Now, I'm not saying that we can always support everything that goes on in 
> > user space forever, but dammit, we can try damn hard.
> 
> Was it a mistake to drop support for ipfwadm and ipchains?
> Was it a mistake to drop support for devsfs?
> Will it be a mistake to drop support for gcc < 3.2?

Those things at least were brewing for _years_. People had lots of 
heads-up warning.

> Will it be a mistake to remove the obsolete raw driver?
> Will it be a mistake to drop the Video4Linux API 1 ioctls?
> Will it be a mistake to drop support for pcmcia-cs?

And again, this is something that we've been warnign about. We have.

I'm not talking about never obsoleting bad interfaces at all. I'm talking 
about the unnecessary breakage that comes from changes that simply aren't 
needed, and that isn't given proper heads-up for. 

We used to have a fairly clear point where we could break things, when we 
had major kernel releases (ie 2.4 -> 2.6 broke the module loader. It was 
documented, and it was unavoidable). 

> The fundamental problem is that the current development model 
> contains no well-defined points where breakages of the kernel-related 
> userspace were allowed and expected by users.

The basic rule should be "never". For example, we now have three different 
generations of the "stat()" system call, and yes, we wrote the code to 
maintain all three interfaces. Breaking an old one for a new better one 
simply wasn't an option.

Now, the more specialized the usage is, the less strict the "never" 
becomes. But if something becomes a pain for distribution managers (and 
from Dave, it sounds like we've hit that way too often), that definitely 
means that we've broken too many things.

In short: I don't think anybody can complain about devfs-like things. 
We've kept it up for a _long_ time, and there was tons of help for the 
migration. But clearly DaveJ is unhappy, and that implies that we're not 
doing as well as we should.

(Which is not to say that we should necessarily bend over backwards to 
make sure that DaveJ is _never_ unhappy. We should just try harder).

			Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Arjan van de Ven]

> 
> We used to have a fairly clear point where we could break things, when we 
> had major kernel releases (ie 2.4 -> 2.6 broke the module loader. It was 
> documented, and it was unavoidable). 

maybe such a point should be added back, in the sense that the
"announced" things get batched up to, say, every 3rd kernel release.
Doing this in batches is less painful than doing it every release.

Re: userspace breakage

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 02:56:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Dave Jones wrote:
> > At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug,
> > alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep
> > with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading
> > your userspace.
> 
> Hmm.. Time for some re-indoctrination?
> 
> We really shouldn't allow that. I know who to blame for udev, who else 
> should I complain to?

Yes, blame me for udev.  Again, a kernel change caused a udev bug to
surface.  This is the problem with 2.6.15 and input devices that are not
the aggregated mice or keyboards.  A one-line fix to udev solved this.

Again, the fault was in udev, not the kernel, I'm not going to prevent
kernel changes from going in, when it is stupid userspace bugs, not the
kernel's fault.

And yes, this is the second time this has happened, it seems that I suck
at userspace programming :)

sorry,

greg k-h

Re: userspace breakage

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On 12/29/05, Dave Jones <davej@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 12:49:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
>  > Umm.. Complain more. I upgrade kernels a lot more often than I upgrade
>  > distros, and things don't break. They're not allowed to break, because I
>  > refuse to upgrade my user programs just because I do kernel development.
>  > But I'd only notice a small part of user space, so if people don't
>  > complain, they break not because we don't care, but because we didn't even
>  > know.
>  >
>  > So if you have a user program that breaks, _complain_. It's really not
>  > supposed to happen outside of perhaps kernel module loaders etc things
>  > that get really really chummy with kernel internals (and even that was
>  > fixed: the modern way of loading modules isn't that chummy any more, so
>  > hopefully we'll not need to break even module loaders again).
>  >
>  > If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally
>  > unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even
>  > have realized it broke.
>  >
>  > At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers
>  > that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply
>  > isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning.
>
> The udev situation I mentioned has been known about for at least a month,
> probably longer. With old udev, we don't get /dev/input/event* created
> with 2.6.15rc.
>

Once input core was converted to sysfs the bereakage was unavoidable.
Because of historical oversight input_dev and input interfaces, such
as mouseX were generating the same "input" events with different
arguments. The option was either to go with separate classes
(breakage) or making hierarchy within one class (breakage again). And
sysfs conversion was needed to do hotplug over netlink...

> At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug,
> alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep
> with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading
> your userspace.
>

I would say that udev and hotplug is special kind of userspace as it
really extension of the kernel. It would probably be best if udev was
packaged together with the kernel.

--
Dmitry

Re: userspace breakage

[Ryan Anderson]

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Dave Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 12:49:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>  
>  > Umm.. Complain more. I upgrade kernels a lot more often than I upgrade 
>  > distros, and things don't break. They're not allowed to break, because I 
>  > refuse to upgrade my user programs just because I do kernel development. 
>  > But I'd only notice a small part of user space, so if people don't 
>  > complain, they break not because we don't care, but because we didn't even 
>  > know.
>  > 
>  > So if you have a user program that breaks, _complain_. It's really not 
>  > supposed to happen outside of perhaps kernel module loaders etc things 
>  > that get really really chummy with kernel internals (and even that was 
>  > fixed: the modern way of loading modules isn't that chummy any more, so 
>  > hopefully we'll not need to break even module loaders again).
>  > 
>  > If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally 
>  > unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even 
>  > have realized it broke.
>  > 
>  > At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers 
>  > that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply 
>  > isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning.
> 
> The udev situation I mentioned has been known about for at least a month,
> probably longer. With old udev, we don't get /dev/input/event* created
> with 2.6.15rc.
> 
> At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug,
> alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep
> with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading
> your userspace.

The biggest complaint I've seen about udev isn't the fact that you
sometimes need to upgrade to use a new kernel, that's something that
people like Dave can handle via package dependencies.

The part of the udev situation that I've heard as a complaint (though I
haven't experienced myself) is that the new udev wasn't backwards
compatible with certain older kernels.  I think the description I've
heard is that you need one udev for < 2.6.12, one for 2.6.12 - 2.6.14,
and now a new one for 2.6.15, and at least, jumping from < 2.6.12 to
2.6.15 is pretty much guaranteed to be difficult to get right.  (If the
kernel fails, you have a udev installed that won't work on the older
kernel correctly, apparently.)

This, for what it's worth, is the same breakage that Dave seemed to be
most frustrated with during his OLS keynote, regarding ALSA versions,
and a few other things that caused breakage and the user space failed to
work correctly when the kernel was reverted.  (I hope I'm not putting
words in your mouth, Dave).

That's my perspective from someone who has only dealt with the issue
from the point of view of a user, and only in the case of the Debian
udev packages flat out refusing to install while running a "too old"
kernel, which was rather, umm, annoying.

-- 

Ryan Anderson
  sometimes Pug Majere

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Re: userspace breakage

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 07:38:14PM -0500, Ryan Anderson wrote:

 > The biggest complaint I've seen about udev isn't the fact that you
 > sometimes need to upgrade to use a new kernel, that's something that
 > people like Dave can handle via package dependencies.

Sure, we *can* do that, though the problem is it introduces latency between
the time I build a kernel, and time users can test it, as they have
to sit and wait for the userspace packages to also arrive.

There's a 2.6.15rc7 kernel that some Fedora Core 4 users could download
and play with right now. I thought it'd be great to get some extra testing
over the xmas holidays. Unfortunatly, due to the necessary udev upgrade, 
many users are turned off from testing by the inability to run X after
installing it.  It'll probably be some time in the new year when folks
like our udev packager get back from vacation before we get a test package for FC4.

The more people I'm reliant upon for having bits in place, the longer
users have to wait to be able to test, and the longer we all wait for
feedback.

 > The part of the udev situation that I've heard as a complaint (though I
 > haven't experienced myself) is that the new udev wasn't backwards
 > compatible with certain older kernels.  I think the description I've
 > heard is that you need one udev for < 2.6.12, one for 2.6.12 - 2.6.14,
 > and now a new one for 2.6.15, and at least, jumping from < 2.6.12 to
 > 2.6.15 is pretty much guaranteed to be difficult to get right.  (If the
 > kernel fails, you have a udev installed that won't work on the older
 > kernel correctly, apparently.)
 > 
 > This, for what it's worth, is the same breakage that Dave seemed to be
 > most frustrated with during his OLS keynote, regarding ALSA versions,
 > and a few other things that caused breakage and the user space failed to
 > work correctly when the kernel was reverted.  (I hope I'm not putting
 > words in your mouth, Dave).

Yep, That is another problem. It's not uncommon for someone to upgrade
to a new rebased kernel and its assorted userspace bits, then find out
their wireless card broke, so they go back to the old working kernel,
only to find the newer sound libraries misbehave on older kernels.
(ALSA isn't the only problem area here, but it's an easy target).

		Dave

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Dave Jones wrote:
> 
> There's a 2.6.15rc7 kernel that some Fedora Core 4 users could download
> and play with right now. I thought it'd be great to get some extra testing
> over the xmas holidays. Unfortunatly, due to the necessary udev upgrade, 
> many users are turned off from testing by the inability to run X after
> installing it.

Can you actually detail this thing a bit more? I'm a FC4 user myself, and 
I'm sure as hell running X too. And that's not even a special X install 
like I used to have, it's bog-standard FC4 afaik.

And I'm definitely running -rc7 (well, not exactly, it's my current git 
tree, so it's -rc7+patches).

So whatever breakage is there, I'd love to know more. It's not entirely 
obvious.

			Linus

Re: userspace breakage

[Dave Airlie]

>
> Can you actually detail this thing a bit more? I'm a FC4 user myself, and
> I'm sure as hell running X too. And that's not even a special X install
> like I used to have, it's bog-standard FC4 afaik.
>
> And I'm definitely running -rc7 (well, not exactly, it's my current git
> tree, so it's -rc7+patches).

/dev/input/event* disappear, I've just noticed this myself yesterday
working on Xegl, I thought I'd done something wrong, then I realised
udev/kernel issues and I just created them by hand..

Your X might not be using evdev....

Dave.

Re: userspace breakage

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 05:05:08PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
 > 
 > 
 > On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Dave Jones wrote:
 > > 
 > > There's a 2.6.15rc7 kernel that some Fedora Core 4 users could download
 > > and play with right now. I thought it'd be great to get some extra testing
 > > over the xmas holidays. Unfortunatly, due to the necessary udev upgrade, 
 > > many users are turned off from testing by the inability to run X after
 > > installing it.
 > 
 > Can you actually detail this thing a bit more? I'm a FC4 user myself, and 
 > I'm sure as hell running X too. And that's not even a special X install 
 > like I used to have, it's bog-standard FC4 afaik.
 > 
 > And I'm definitely running -rc7 (well, not exactly, it's my current git 
 > tree, so it's -rc7+patches).
 > 
 > So whatever breakage is there, I'd love to know more. It's not entirely 
 > obvious.

It's X config dependant. If you have

Option      "Device" "/dev/input/mice"

in your inputdevice section, all should work (I think[*]).
However, some folks seem to have somehow ended up with references
to either 'mouse0' or 'event*' in there.

With 2.6.14 on my testbox, I get this..

$ ls /dev/input/
event0  event1  mice  mouse0

With 2.6.15rc

$ ls /dev/input/
mice

If I can dig out the bugzilla that reported this, I'll followup.
Something in my head is telling me it had something to do with
laptop touchpads, but that could be the post-xmas `nog talking.

		Dave

[*] How much I look forward to a world where X has no config file
    and just figures all this out itself.

Re: userspace breakage

[Jiri Slaby]

Dave Jones napsal(a):

>With 2.6.14 on my testbox, I get this..
>
>$ ls /dev/input/
>event0  event1  mice  mouse0
>
>With 2.6.15rc
>
>$ ls /dev/input/
>mice
>  
>
I don't know what's wrong (or different), but
$ uname -a
Linux bellona 2.6.15-rc7 #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Dec 30 02:56:57 CET 2005
i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
$ cat /etc/fedora-release
Fedora Core release 4 (Stentz)
$ rpm -q udev hal
udev-077-1
hal-0.5.5.1-1
from SRPMS from
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/SRPMS/
[maybe this is the difference? btw. despite, rc5-mm3 sound is defunct --
sound class is under device's class, but it's mm tree]
and at last the point of this e-mail:

$ ls /dev/input/
event0  event1  mice  mouse0  wacom

(udev created them, I'm sure)

all the best,

-- 
Jiri Slaby         www.fi.muni.cz/~xslaby
\_.-^-._   jirislaby@gmail.com   _.-^-._/
B67499670407CE62ACC8 22A032CC55C339D47A7E

Re: userspace breakage

[Dave Jones]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 03:10:29AM +0100, Jiri Slaby wrote:

 > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/SRPMS/
 > [maybe this is the difference?

Of course. development branch always has latest userspace.
The point here is that the old userspace breaks.

		Dave

Re: userspace breakage

[Jiri Slaby]

Dave Jones wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 03:10:29AM +0100, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> 
>  > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/SRPMS/
>  > [maybe this is the difference?
> 
> Of course. development branch always has latest userspace.
> The point here is that the old userspace breaks.
OK, I am with you, but when I am trying (devel) -rc releases, I need devel pkgs
(my opinion). And there is some time then to move these devel pkgs to release
database until next not-rc become real. Indeed, changes like this in some -rc
just before stable release or BIG changes in -rc at all are crazy, but if
somebody do that, we all have the chance say "STOP, we don't want it" (that's
the one from points to get lkml) not only THE MAN before git-commit.

regards,
-- 
Jiri Slaby         www.fi.muni.cz/~xslaby
\_.-^-._   jirislaby@gmail.com   _.-^-._/
B67499670407CE62ACC8 22A032CC55C339D47A7E

Re: userspace breakage

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 08:21:45PM -0500, Dave Jones wrote:
> With 2.6.14 on my testbox, I get this..
> 
> $ ls /dev/input/
> event0  event1  mice  mouse0
> 
> With 2.6.15rc
> 
> $ ls /dev/input/
> mice
> 
> If I can dig out the bugzilla that reported this, I'll followup.
> Something in my head is telling me it had something to do with
> laptop touchpads, but that could be the post-xmas `nog talking.

When I got bitten with this udev breakage a while ago, it wasn't a
matter of /dev/input/event? in the X configuration file, but that the
Synaptics driver directly searches for /dev/input/event?  files to
talk directly to the raw touchpad device driver directly, and fails to
initialize, thus causing the X server initialization to fail.  There
may be other failure scenarios, but this was the one I ran into with
my laptop.

							- Ted

Re: userspace breakage

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> This, for what it's worth, is the same breakage that Dave seemed to be
> most frustrated with during his OLS keynote, regarding ALSA versions,
> and a few other things that caused breakage and the user space failed to
> work correctly when the kernel was reverted.  (I hope I'm not putting
> words in your mouth, Dave).

I agree: the worst part of version dependency is that it's really hard in 
general to just move one of the components backwards or forwards. 
Something you want to do when breakage occurs, or just because you need to 
figure out some _other_ problem (like doing a kernel bug bisection).

Which is why pretty much _every_ component needs to be backwards 
compatible at least to some degree. Otherwise they'd need to be bundled 
and developed together as one thing.

IOW, the same way it's wrong for the kernel to need new binaries, it's 
wrong for binaries to need a new kernel. It's one reason why we seldom add 
new system calls: they aren't all that useful in any kind of short 
timeframe, because even programs that would _like_ to use them usually 
can't do so for a long time (until they don't have to worry about people 
running old kernels any more).

(Some system calls are easier to add than others - if you can easily 
emulate the new system call semantics with just a slight performance hit, 
you can just have a simple wrapper with a fallback. That doesn't always 
work well - some things are just very hard to emulate efficiently).

		Linus

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Mark Lord]

 >If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally
 >unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even
 >have realized it broke.

Okay, I'm complaining:  /proc/cpuinfo is no longer correct
for my Pentium-M notebook, as ov 2.6.15-rc7.  Now it reports
a cpu speed of approx 800Mhz for a 2.0Mhz Pentium-M.

Cheers!

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 10:47:28PM -0500, Mark Lord wrote:
 > >If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally
 > >unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even
 > >have realized it broke.
 > 
 > Okay, I'm complaining:  /proc/cpuinfo is no longer correct
 > for my Pentium-M notebook, as ov 2.6.15-rc7.  Now it reports
 > a cpu speed of approx 800Mhz for a 2.0Mhz Pentium-M.

It's reporting the 'current running speed'. You have speedstep-centrino
loaded, (and probably a governor changing the speed down when idle).

I don't see how this can be construed as breakage btw.
Which application breaks due to this changing ?

		Dave

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Mark Lord]

Mark Lord wrote:
>
> Okay, I'm complaining:  /proc/cpuinfo is no longer correct
> for my Pentium-M notebook, as ov 2.6.15-rc7.  Now it reports
> a cpu speed of approx 800Mhz for a 2.0Mhz Pentium-M.

2.0GHz, not Mhz!  (blush)

Prior to -rc7, /proc/cpuinfo would scale according to the
current speedstep of the CPU.  Now it seems stuck at the
lowest setting for some reason.

Cheers

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 10:57:40PM -0500, Mark Lord wrote:
 > Mark Lord wrote:
 > >
 > >Okay, I'm complaining:  /proc/cpuinfo is no longer correct
 > >for my Pentium-M notebook, as ov 2.6.15-rc7.  Now it reports
 > >a cpu speed of approx 800Mhz for a 2.0Mhz Pentium-M.
 > 
 > 2.0GHz, not Mhz!  (blush)
 > 
 > Prior to -rc7, /proc/cpuinfo would scale according to the
 > current speedstep of the CPU.  Now it seems stuck at the
 > lowest setting for some reason.

Ok, if the scaling doesn't work any more, that's a bug rather
than an intentional breakage.  More details please? dmesg ?
/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq contents? What were you using
to do the scaling previously?  (An app, or ondemand)

		Dave

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Mark Lord]

Dave Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 10:57:40PM -0500, Mark Lord wrote:
>  > Mark Lord wrote:
>  > >
>  > >Okay, I'm complaining:  /proc/cpuinfo is no longer correct
>  > >for my Pentium-M notebook, as ov 2.6.15-rc7.  Now it reports
>  > >a cpu speed of approx 800Mhz for a 2.0Mhz Pentium-M.
>  > 
>  > 2.0GHz, not Mhz!  (blush)
>  > 
>  > Prior to -rc7, /proc/cpuinfo would scale according to the
>  > current speedstep of the CPU.  Now it seems stuck at the
>  > lowest setting for some reason.
> 
> Ok, if the scaling doesn't work any more, that's a bug rather
> than an intentional breakage.  More details please? dmesg ?
> /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq contents? What were you using
> to do the scaling previously?  (An app, or ondemand)

The actual speedstep component ("ondemand" cpufreq) is working just
fine, according to /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq.  But /proc/cpuinfo
is no longer reflecting the current values -- stuck at 800Mhz
regardless of /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq showing other values.

Cheers

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Mark Lord]

Mark Lord wrote:
>
> The actual speedstep component ("ondemand" cpufreq) is working just
> fine, according to /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq.  But /proc/cpuinfo
> is no longer reflecting the current values -- stuck at 800Mhz
> regardless of /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq showing other values.

Actually, the path is /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/cpuinfo_cur_freq.

And tonight it appears to be working again (/proc/cpuinfo showing
correct values, something it was not doing when I first checked it
after upgrading to -rc7.. something buggy there??).

Cheers

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Mark Lord]

Mark Lord wrote:
..
> And tonight it appears to be working again (/proc/cpuinfo showing
> correct values, something it was not doing when I first checked it
> after upgrading to -rc7.. something buggy there??).

Okay, I've tried a couple of reboots, and it's working fine tonight.
Maybe it only fails when doing a public demo for Windows people?
(as when it first failed).

Leave it.  If I can catch it again, I'll scream again then.

Cheers

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 11:20:12PM -0500, Mark Lord wrote:
 > Mark Lord wrote:
 > ..
 > >And tonight it appears to be working again (/proc/cpuinfo showing
 > >correct values, something it was not doing when I first checked it
 > >after upgrading to -rc7.. something buggy there??).
 > 
 > Okay, I've tried a couple of reboots, and it's working fine tonight.
 > Maybe it only fails when doing a public demo for Windows people?
 > (as when it first failed).
 > 
 > Leave it.  If I can catch it again, I'll scream again then.

One thing that could explain it.. SMP kernels currently don't
report scaling correctly. It'll always show the boot frequency.
There's a fix for this in the cpufreq.git repo (and -mm)
that's going to Linus once 2.6.15 is out.

		Dave

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Willy Tarreau]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 09:41:12AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
 
> There have been situations where documented gcc semantics changed, and 
> instead of saying "sorry", the gcc people changed the documentation. What 
> the hell is the point of documented semantics if you can't depend on them 
> anyway?

Remember the #arg and ##arg mess in macros between gcc2 and gcc3 ?

I fell like I start to understand where your hate for specifications
comes from. As much as I like to stick to specs, which is generally
OK for hardware and network protocols, I can say that with GCC, there
is clearly no rule telling you whether your program will still compile
with version N+1 or not.

Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
and try to stick to that version for as long as possible ? The only
real reason to upgrade it would be to support newer archs, while at
the moment, we try to support compilers which are shipped as default
*user-space* compilers.

Willy

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,

speaking as someone who used to work for a distro: this sucks for
distros. Shipping 2 compilers is NOT fun. Not fun at all! It's double
the maintenance, actually more since 1 of the 2 is only used in 1
package, so it gets a lot less testing.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Willy Tarreau]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 09:05:17AM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
> > Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> > ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
> 
> speaking as someone who used to work for a distro: this sucks for
> distros. Shipping 2 compilers is NOT fun. Not fun at all! It's double
> the maintenance, actually more since 1 of the 2 is only used in 1
> package, so it gets a lot less testing.

I trust your experience on this, but wasn't the lack of testing
primarily due to the use of a "special" version of the compiler ?
For instance, if we put a short howto in Documentation/ explaining
how to build a kgcc toolchain describing what versions to use, there
are chances that most LKML users will use the exact same version.
Distro maintainers may want to follow the same version too. Also,
the fact that the kernel would be designed to work with *that*
compiler will limit the maintenance trouble you certainly have
encountered trying to keep the compiler up-to-date with more recent
kernel patches and updates.

Of course I may be wrong, but I think that kernel developpers spend
a huge time adapting the kernel to newer versions gcc (and fixing
bugs caused by new versions too), and this time would better be spent
developping new features and fixing bugs (and of course sometimes
maintaining the kgcc toolchain when needed).

Willy

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 09:15 +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> 
> 
> I trust your experience on this, but wasn't the lack of testing
> primarily due to the use of a "special" version of the compiler ?
> For instance, if we put a short howto in Documentation/ explaining
> how to build a kgcc toolchain describing what versions to use, there
> are chances that most LKML users will use the exact same version.
> Distro maintainers may want to follow the same version too. Also,
> the fact that the kernel would be designed to work with *that*
> compiler will limit the maintenance trouble you certainly have
> encountered trying to keep the compiler up-to-date with more recent
> kernel patches and updates.

it's not that easy. Simply put: the gcc people release an update every 6
months; distros "jump ahead" the bugfixes on that usually. (think of it
like -stable, where distros would ship patches accepted for -stable but
before -stable got released). Taking an older compiler from gcc.gnu.org
doesn't mean it's bug free. It just means you're not getting bugfixes.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Willy Tarreau]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 09:24:32AM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 09:15 +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I trust your experience on this, but wasn't the lack of testing
> > primarily due to the use of a "special" version of the compiler ?
> > For instance, if we put a short howto in Documentation/ explaining
> > how to build a kgcc toolchain describing what versions to use, there
> > are chances that most LKML users will use the exact same version.
> > Distro maintainers may want to follow the same version too. Also,
> > the fact that the kernel would be designed to work with *that*
> > compiler will limit the maintenance trouble you certainly have
> > encountered trying to keep the compiler up-to-date with more recent
> > kernel patches and updates.
> 
> it's not that easy. Simply put: the gcc people release an update every 6
> months; distros "jump ahead" the bugfixes on that usually. (think of it
> like -stable, where distros would ship patches accepted for -stable but
> before -stable got released). Taking an older compiler from gcc.gnu.org
> doesn't mean it's bug free. It just means you're not getting bugfixes.

OK, but precisely, we don't have any bug free version of gcc anyway. The
kernel has a long history of workaround for gcc bugs. So probably there
will be less work with a -possibly buggy- old gcc version than with a
constantly changing one. For instance, if we stick to 3.4 for 2 years,
we will of course encounter a lot of bugs. But they will be worked around
just like gcc-2.95 bugs have been, and we will be able to keep the same
compiler very long at virtually zero maintenance work.

A few years ago, I had to work on a mainframe system with gcc 1.37.
Yes, 1.37 !!! It was very limited, but I could adapt my code to it
without thinking about what would happen when they update it precisely
because it was not meant to evolve at all. It had been shipped like
this with the OS for 5 years and that was OK. With stable tools like
this, any bug becomes a feature because you don't risk someone fixing
it and breaking your workaround.

While it would be a real problem for user-space tools, I think it
is compatible with kernel needs. The kernel already has strict
requirements to be built and does not need the same level of
portability as pdksh or openssh for instance.

Willy

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 10:20:15AM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 09:24:32AM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 09:15 +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I trust your experience on this, but wasn't the lack of testing
> > > primarily due to the use of a "special" version of the compiler ?
> > > For instance, if we put a short howto in Documentation/ explaining
> > > how to build a kgcc toolchain describing what versions to use, there
> > > are chances that most LKML users will use the exact same version.
> > > Distro maintainers may want to follow the same version too. Also,
> > > the fact that the kernel would be designed to work with *that*
> > > compiler will limit the maintenance trouble you certainly have
> > > encountered trying to keep the compiler up-to-date with more recent
> > > kernel patches and updates.
> > 
> > it's not that easy. Simply put: the gcc people release an update every 6
> > months; distros "jump ahead" the bugfixes on that usually. (think of it
> > like -stable, where distros would ship patches accepted for -stable but
> > before -stable got released). Taking an older compiler from gcc.gnu.org
> > doesn't mean it's bug free. It just means you're not getting bugfixes.
> 
> OK, but precisely, we don't have any bug free version of gcc anyway. The
> kernel has a long history of workaround for gcc bugs. So probably there
> will be less work with a -possibly buggy- old gcc version than with a
> constantly changing one. For instance, if we stick to 3.4 for 2 years,
> we will of course encounter a lot of bugs. But they will be worked around
> just like gcc-2.95 bugs have been, and we will be able to keep the same
> compiler very long at virtually zero maintenance work.
>...

The changes in gcc aren't _that_ big.

As an example, I tried compiling recent 2.6 kernels with gcc CVS HEAD 
shortly before the 4.1 branch was created, and except for two or three 
internal compiler errors (that are OK considering that I used a random 
CVS snapshot) the kernel compiled fine.

Every gcc release might have it's own issues, but compared to e.g. the 
pains your proposal would impose on new ports, they aren't that big.
And you shouldn't forget that it's even non-trivial to find one gcc 
release that works fine compiling kernels on all architectures. As an 
example, gcc 3.2 is a known bad compiler on arm.

> Willy

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jesper Juhl]

On 12/30/05, Willy Tarreau <willy@w.ods.org> wrote:
<!-- snip -->
>
> Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
> and try to stick to that version for as long as possible ? The only
> real reason to upgrade it would be to support newer archs, while at
> the moment, we try to support compilers which are shipped as default
> *user-space* compilers.
>
As I see it, doing that would
 - put extra work on distributors.
 - bloat users systems with the need to have two gcc versions installed.
 - decrease testing with different gcc versions, which sometimes uncover bugs.


--
Jesper Juhl <jesper.juhl@gmail.com>
Don't top-post  http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
Plain text mails only, please      http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Willy Tarreau]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 09:33:14AM +0100, Jesper Juhl wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Willy Tarreau <willy@w.ods.org> wrote:
> <!-- snip -->
> >
> > Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> > ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
> > and try to stick to that version for as long as possible ? The only
> > real reason to upgrade it would be to support newer archs, while at
> > the moment, we try to support compilers which are shipped as default
> > *user-space* compilers.
> >
> As I see it, doing that would
>  - put extra work on distributors.

In the short term, yes. In the mid-term, I don't think so. Having one package
which does not need to change and another one which evolves regardless of
kernel needs is less work than ensuring that a single package is still
compatible with everyone's needs. Think about support too : "what gcc version
did you use ?" would simply become "did you build with kgcc ?"

>  - bloat users systems with the need to have two gcc versions installed.

$ size /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i586-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.6/cc1
   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
3430228    2680  746688 4179596  3fc68c /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i586-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.6/cc1

You don't even need libgcc nor c++ to build the kernel. Anyway, it should
not be an absolute requirement, but the *recommended* and *supported* version.

>  - decrease testing with different gcc versions, which sometimes uncover bugs.

gcc testing should not consume kernel developpers' time, but gcc's users.
How many kernel bugs have finally been attributed to a recent change in gcc ?
A lot I think. Uncovering bugs in gcc is useful but not the primary goal of
kernel developpers.

> Jesper Juhl <jesper.juhl@gmail.com>

Willy

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jesper Juhl]

On 12/30/05, Willy Tarreau <willy@w.ods.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 09:33:14AM +0100, Jesper Juhl wrote:
> > On 12/30/05, Willy Tarreau <willy@w.ods.org> wrote:
> > <!-- snip -->
> > >
> > > Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> > > ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
> > > and try to stick to that version for as long as possible ? The only
> > > real reason to upgrade it would be to support newer archs, while at
> > > the moment, we try to support compilers which are shipped as default
> > > *user-space* compilers.
> > >
> > As I see it, doing that would
> >  - put extra work on distributors.
>
> In the short term, yes. In the mid-term, I don't think so. Having one package
> which does not need to change and another one which evolves regardless of
> kernel needs is less work than ensuring that a single package is still
> compatible with everyone's needs. Think about support too : "what gcc version
> did you use ?" would simply become "did you build with kgcc ?"
>
> >  - bloat users systems with the need to have two gcc versions installed.
>
> $ size /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i586-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.6/cc1
>    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
> 3430228    2680  746688 4179596  3fc68c /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i586-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.6/cc1
>
It's not much, agreed, but if the users regular gcc can build the
kernel it's still unnessesary extra bloat to have two gcc's.
But you are right, the bloat issue is just a minor thing.


> You don't even need libgcc nor c++ to build the kernel. Anyway, it should
> not be an absolute requirement, but the *recommended* and *supported* version.
>
> >  - decrease testing with different gcc versions, which sometimes uncover bugs.
>
> gcc testing should not consume kernel developpers' time, but gcc's users.
> How many kernel bugs have finally been attributed to a recent change in gcc ?
> A lot I think. Uncovering bugs in gcc is useful but not the primary goal of
> kernel developpers.
>
That's not what I meant. I meant that building the kernel with
different gcc versions sometimes uncover bugs in the *kernel*.  I was
not talking about finding bugs in gcc.

--
Jesper Juhl <jesper.juhl@gmail.com>
Don't top-post  http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
Plain text mails only, please      http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Willy Tarreau]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 10:37:08AM +0100, Jesper Juhl wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Willy Tarreau <willy@w.ods.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 09:33:14AM +0100, Jesper Juhl wrote:
> > > On 12/30/05, Willy Tarreau <willy@w.ods.org> wrote:
> > > <!-- snip -->
> > > >
> > > > Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> > > > ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
> > > > and try to stick to that version for as long as possible ? The only
> > > > real reason to upgrade it would be to support newer archs, while at
> > > > the moment, we try to support compilers which are shipped as default
> > > > *user-space* compilers.
> > > >
> > > As I see it, doing that would
> > >  - put extra work on distributors.
> >
> > In the short term, yes. In the mid-term, I don't think so. Having one package
> > which does not need to change and another one which evolves regardless of
> > kernel needs is less work than ensuring that a single package is still
> > compatible with everyone's needs. Think about support too : "what gcc version
> > did you use ?" would simply become "did you build with kgcc ?"
> >
> > >  - bloat users systems with the need to have two gcc versions installed.
> >
> > $ size /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i586-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.6/cc1
> >    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
> > 3430228    2680  746688 4179596  3fc68c /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i586-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.6/cc1
> >
> It's not much, agreed, but if the users regular gcc can build the
> kernel it's still unnessesary extra bloat to have two gcc's.
> But you are right, the bloat issue is just a minor thing.
> 
> 
> > You don't even need libgcc nor c++ to build the kernel. Anyway, it should
> > not be an absolute requirement, but the *recommended* and *supported* version.
> >
> > >  - decrease testing with different gcc versions, which sometimes uncover bugs.
> >
> > gcc testing should not consume kernel developpers' time, but gcc's users.
> > How many kernel bugs have finally been attributed to a recent change in gcc ?
> > A lot I think. Uncovering bugs in gcc is useful but not the primary goal of
> > kernel developpers.
> >
> That's not what I meant. I meant that building the kernel with
> different gcc versions sometimes uncover bugs in the *kernel*.  I was
> not talking about finding bugs in gcc.

OK. But there will always be people trying to build kernels with any gcc so
I don't think we would lose this bug report channel anyway.

> Jesper Juhl <jesper.juhl@gmail.com>

Willy

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Alistair John Strachan]

On Thursday 29 December 2005 23:16, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 09:41:12AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > There have been situations where documented gcc semantics changed, and
> > instead of saying "sorry", the gcc people changed the documentation. What
> > the hell is the point of documented semantics if you can't depend on them
> > anyway?
>
> Remember the #arg and ##arg mess in macros between gcc2 and gcc3 ?
>
> I fell like I start to understand where your hate for specifications
> comes from. As much as I like to stick to specs, which is generally
> OK for hardware and network protocols, I can say that with GCC, there
> is clearly no rule telling you whether your program will still compile
> with version N+1 or not.
>
> Can't we elect a recommended gcc version that distro makers could
> ship under the name kgcc as it has been the case for some time,
> and try to stick to that version for as long as possible ? The only
> real reason to upgrade it would be to support newer archs, while at
> the moment, we try to support compilers which are shipped as default
> *user-space* compilers.

Leave this decision to distributors. Ubuntu already seem to use (and require 
you to install) gcc 3.4 if you want to recompile their kernel or any kernel 
modules. It ships with 4.0.1, iirc.

I see GCC improving currently. 3.0 was horrendously slow and buggy versus 
2.95, but 3.3 was a very good compiler, and 4.1 looks like it will be even 
better. Maybe things will continue to improve and this will become less of an 
issue over time.

-- 
Cheers,
Alistair.

'No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway.'
Third year Computer Science undergraduate.
1F2 55 South Clerk Street, Edinburgh, UK.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> IOW: I'd prefer that we be the ones who specify which functions are going
> to be inlined and which ones are not.

a bold statement... especially since the "and which ones are not" isn't
currently there, we still leave gcc a lot of freedom there ... but only
in one direction.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Horst von Brand]

Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> wrote:
> > IOW: I'd prefer that we be the ones who specify which functions are going
> > to be inlined and which ones are not.

> a bold statement... especially since the "and which ones are not" isn't
> currently there, we still leave gcc a lot of freedom there ... but only
> in one direction.

Besides, this is currently an everywhere or nowhere switch. gcc (in
principle at least) could decide which calls to inline and for which ones
it isn't worth it. Just like the (also long to die) "register" keyword.
-- 
Dr. Horst H. von Brand                   User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Alan Cox]

On Mer, 2005-12-28 at 20:11 -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have (yet
> more) incorrect inlining.  We should hunt those down and fix them.  We did
> quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a script which
> would identify which functions are a candidate for uninlining?

There is a tool that does this quite well. Its called "gcc" ;)

More seriously we need to seperate "things Andrew thinks are good inline
candidates" and "things that *must* be inlined". That allows 'build for
size' to do the equivalent of "-Dplease_inline" and the other build to
do "-Dplease_inline=inline". Gcc's inliner isn't aware of things cross
module so isn't going to make all the decisions right, but will make the
tedious local decisions.

As far as bugs go - gcc -Os has also fixed bugs in the past. It doesn't
introduce bugs so much as change them. Fedora means we have good long
term data on -Os with modern gcc (not with old gcc but we just dumped <
3.2 anyway).

Nowdays the -Os code paths are also getting real hammering because many
people build desktops, even OpenOffice with -Os and see overall
performance gains for the system.

Alan

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 03:28:00PM +0000, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Mer, 2005-12-28 at 20:11 -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have (yet
> > more) incorrect inlining.  We should hunt those down and fix them.  We did
> > quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a script which
> > would identify which functions are a candidate for uninlining?
> 
> There is a tool that does this quite well. Its called "gcc" ;)
> 
> More seriously we need to seperate "things Andrew thinks are good inline
> candidates" and "things that *must* be inlined". That allows 'build for
> size' to do the equivalent of "-Dplease_inline" and the other build to
> do "-Dplease_inline=inline". Gcc's inliner isn't aware of things cross
> module so isn't going to make all the decisions right, but will make the
> tedious local decisions.
>...

I'm not getting the point:

Shouldn't "static" versus not "static" already give gcc everything it 
needs for making the decision?

If stuff is cross-module (more exactly: cross-objects) it's not static 
and I doubt there are many (if any) cases of non-static code we want 
inline'd when used inside the file it's in.

> Alan

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Matt Mackall]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 08:11:50PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have (yet
> more) incorrect inlining.  We should hunt those down and fix them.  We did
> quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a script which
> would identify which functions are a candidate for uninlining?

It was a combination of a tool I wrote for -tiny, which added
deprecation warnings to inlines along with a post-processing tool to
count instantiations, nestings, etc., and a post-post-processing tool
written by Denis Vlasenko that guessed at the space usage.

We cleaned up most of the obvious offenders quite a while ago, but
there's quite a long tail on the usage distribution. It's simply not
worth the trouble to go through the far half of the distribution one
by one to figure out whether inlining makes sense.

So I'm in favor of changing our inlining philosophy moving forward.
The world has changed since we started physically marking functions
inline. When we started, basically all arches gained advantage from
heavy inlining due to favorable CPU to memory speed ratios. And the
compiler's automatic inlining was quite primitive. Now most (but not
all!) arches heavily favor out of line code except in fairly critical
locations and the compiler has gotten (just recently) quite a bit
smarter with its inlining.

So we should really go back to using inline as a hint for 90%+ of
candidate functions (using always.. and no.. for the rest), and using
our compile-time size and arch information to fine-tune the compiler's
decisions as to which hints to take.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 04:12:22PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 08:11:50PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have (yet
> > more) incorrect inlining.  We should hunt those down and fix them.  We did
> > quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a script which
> > would identify which functions are a candidate for uninlining?
> 
> It was a combination of a tool I wrote for -tiny, which added
> deprecation warnings to inlines along with a post-processing tool to
> count instantiations, nestings, etc., and a post-post-processing tool
> written by Denis Vlasenko that guessed at the space usage.
> 
> We cleaned up most of the obvious offenders quite a while ago, but
> there's quite a long tail on the usage distribution. It's simply not
> worth the trouble to go through the far half of the distribution one
> by one to figure out whether inlining makes sense.

The "figure out" task is easy:

There has to be a _very_ good reason for not deleting an inline in a .c 
file.

inline's in header files are a different topic, but in their case an 
explicit review would be better since the correct solution is in such 
cases often to move the code to a .c file (this might even result in 
additional space savings).

> So I'm in favor of changing our inlining philosophy moving forward.
> The world has changed since we started physically marking functions
> inline. When we started, basically all arches gained advantage from
> heavy inlining due to favorable CPU to memory speed ratios. And the
> compiler's automatic inlining was quite primitive. Now most (but not
> all!) arches heavily favor out of line code except in fairly critical
> locations and the compiler has gotten (just recently) quite a bit
> smarter with its inlining.
> 
> So we should really go back to using inline as a hint for 90%+ of
> candidate functions (using always.. and no.. for the rest), and using
> our compile-time size and arch information to fine-tune the compiler's
> decisions as to which hints to take.

I still don't understand why gcc needs any "inline" hints at all except 
in the cases where we want to force gcc to inline a function.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 16:12 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 08:11:50PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > If no-forced-inlining makes the kernel smaller then we probably have (yet
> > more) incorrect inlining.  We should hunt those down and fix them.  We did
> > quite a lot of this in 2.5.x/2.6.early.  Didn't someone have a script which
> > would identify which functions are a candidate for uninlining?
> 
> It was a combination of a tool I wrote for -tiny, which added
> deprecation warnings to inlines along with a post-processing tool to
> count instantiations, nestings, etc., and a post-post-processing tool
> written by Denis Vlasenko that guessed at the space usage.


my current patch to deinline a bunch of big offenders is at
http://www.fenrus.org/noinline

(it's on the big side for lkml for now)

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Christoph Hellwig]

> another thing: i wanted to decrease the size of -Os 
> (CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE) kernels, which e.g. Fedora uses too (to 
> keep the icache footprint down).
> 
> I think gcc should arguably not be forced to inline things when doing 
> -Os, and it's also expected to mess up much less than when optimizing 
> for speed. So maybe forced inlining should be dependent on 
> !CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE?

I don't care too much whether we put always_inline or inline at the function
we _really_ want to inline.  But all others shouldn't have any inline marker.
So instead of changing the pretty useful redefinitions we have to keep the
code a little more readable what about getting rid of all the stupid inlines
we have over the place?  I think many things we have static inline in headers
now should move to proper out of line functions.  This is more work, but also
more useful than just flipping a bit.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> I don't care too much whether we put always_inline or inline at the function
> we _really_ want to inline.  But all others shouldn't have any inline marker.
> So instead of changing the pretty useful redefinitions we have to keep the
> code a little more readable what about getting rid of all the stupid inlines
> we have over the place? 

just in drivers/ there are well over 6400 of those. Changing most of
those is going to be a huge effort. The reality is, most driver writers
(in fact kernel code writers) tend to overestimate the gain of inline in
THEIR code, and to underestimate the cumulative cost of it. Despite what
akpm says, I think gcc can make a better judgement than most of these
authors (probably including me :). We can remove 6400 now, but a year
from now, another 1000 have been added back again I bet.

You describe a nice utopia where only the most essential functions are
inlined.. but so far that hasn't worked out all that well ;) Turning
"inline" back into the hint to the compiler that the C language makes it
is maybe a cop-out, but it's a sustainable approach at least.

> I think many things we have static inline in headers
> now should move to proper out of line functions.

I suspect the biggest gains aren't the ones in the headers; those tend
to be quite small and often mostly optimize away due to constant
arguments (there may be a few exceptions of course), and also have been
attacked by various people in the 2.5/2.6 series before. It's the local
functions that got too many "inline" hints.

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 03:54:09PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
> > I don't care too much whether we put always_inline or inline at the function
> > we _really_ want to inline.  But all others shouldn't have any inline marker.
> > So instead of changing the pretty useful redefinitions we have to keep the
> > code a little more readable what about getting rid of all the stupid inlines
> > we have over the place? 
> 
> just in drivers/ there are well over 6400 of those. Changing most of
> those is going to be a huge effort. The reality is, most driver writers
> (in fact kernel code writers) tend to overestimate the gain of inline in
> THEIR code, and to underestimate the cumulative cost of it. Despite what
> akpm says, I think gcc can make a better judgement than most of these
> authors (probably including me :). We can remove 6400 now, but a year
> from now, another 1000 have been added back again I bet.

Are we that bad reviewing code?

An "inline" in a .c file is simply nearly always wrong in the kernel, 
and unless the author has a good justification for it it should be 
removed.

> You describe a nice utopia where only the most essential functions are
> inlined.. but so far that hasn't worked out all that well ;) Turning
> "inline" back into the hint to the compiler that the C language makes it
> is maybe a cop-out, but it's a sustainable approach at least.
>...

But shouldn't nowadays gcc be able to know best even without an "inline" 
hint?

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Arjan van de Ven]

> > You describe a nice utopia where only the most essential functions are
> > inlined.. but so far that hasn't worked out all that well ;) Turning
> > "inline" back into the hint to the compiler that the C language makes it
> > is maybe a cop-out, but it's a sustainable approach at least.
> >...
> 
> But shouldn't nowadays gcc be able to know best even without an "inline" 
> hint?

it will, the inline hint only affects the thresholds so it's not
entirely without effects, but I can imagine that there are cases that
truely are performance critical and can be optimized out and where you
don't want to help gcc a bit (say a one line wrapper around readl or
writel). Otoh I suspect that modern gcc will be more than smart enough
and inline one liners anyway (if they're static of course).

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Jakub Jelinek]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > You describe a nice utopia where only the most essential functions are
> > inlined.. but so far that hasn't worked out all that well ;) Turning
> > "inline" back into the hint to the compiler that the C language makes it
> > is maybe a cop-out, but it's a sustainable approach at least.
> >...
> 
> But shouldn't nowadays gcc be able to know best even without an "inline" 
> hint?

Only for static functions (and in -funit-at-a-time mode).
Anything else would require full IMA over the whole kernel and we aren't
there yet.  So inline hints are useful.  But most of the inline keywords
in the kernel really should be that, hints, because e.g. while it can be
beneficial to inline something on one arch, it may be not beneficial on
another arch, depending on cache sizes, number of general registers
available to the compiler, register preassure, speed of the call/ret
pair, calling convention and many other factors.

	Jakub

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 10:42:41AM -0500, Jakub Jelinek wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > You describe a nice utopia where only the most essential functions are
> > > inlined.. but so far that hasn't worked out all that well ;) Turning
> > > "inline" back into the hint to the compiler that the C language makes it
> > > is maybe a cop-out, but it's a sustainable approach at least.
> > >...
> > 
> > But shouldn't nowadays gcc be able to know best even without an "inline" 
> > hint?
> 
> Only for static functions (and in -funit-at-a-time mode).

I'm assuming -funit-at-a-time mode. Currently it's disabled on i386, but 
this will change in the medium-term future.

> Anything else would require full IMA over the whole kernel and we aren't
> there yet.  So inline hints are useful.  But most of the inline keywords
> in the kernel really should be that, hints, because e.g. while it can be

Are there (on !alpha) any places in the kernel where a function is 
inline but not static, and this is wanted?

> beneficial to inline something on one arch, it may be not beneficial on
> another arch, depending on cache sizes, number of general registers
> available to the compiler, register preassure, speed of the call/ret
> pair, calling convention and many other factors.

Does gcc really need hints when the functions are static?

> 	Jakub

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andi Kleen]

Jakub Jelinek <jakub@redhat.com> writes:
> 
> Only for static functions (and in -funit-at-a-time mode).
> Anything else would require full IMA over the whole kernel and we aren't
> there yet.  So inline hints are useful.  But most of the inline keywords
> in the kernel really should be that, hints, because e.g. while it can be
> beneficial to inline something on one arch, it may be not beneficial on
> another arch, depending on cache sizes, number of general registers
> available to the compiler, register preassure, speed of the call/ret
> pair, calling convention and many other factors.

There are important exceptions like: 

- Code that really wants to do compile time constant resolution
(like the x86 copy_*_user)  and even throws linker errors when wrong.
- Anything in a include file (otherwise it gets duplicated for
every #include which can actually increase text size a lot) 
- There is some code which absolutely needs inline in the x86-64 
vsyscall code.

But arguably they should be force_inline.

I'm not quite sure I buy Ingo's original argument also.   If he's only
looking at text size then with the above fixed then he ideally
would like to not inline anything (because except these
exceptions above .text usually near always shrinks when 
not inlining). But that's not necessarily best for performance.

-Andi

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Andi Kleen <ak@suse.de> wrote:

> There are important exceptions like: 
> 
> - Code that really wants to do compile time constant resolution
> (like the x86 copy_*_user)  and even throws linker errors when wrong.
> - Anything in a include file (otherwise it gets duplicated for
> every #include which can actually increase text size a lot) 
> - There is some code which absolutely needs inline in the x86-64 
> vsyscall code.
> 
> But arguably they should be force_inline.

FYI, i picked up a couple of those in the 3rd patch that i sent 
yesterday (see below too). That patch marks a handful of functions 
__always_inline. This improved size by another 2-3%. Not bad from a 
small patch:

 asm-i386/apic.h        |    6 +++---
 asm-i386/bitops.h      |    2 +-
 asm-i386/current.h     |    2 +-
 asm-i386/string.h      |    8 ++++----
 linux/buffer_head.h    |   10 +++++-----
 linux/byteorder/swab.h |   18 +++++++++---------
 linux/mm.h             |    2 +-
 linux/slab.h           |    2 +-
 8 files changed, 25 insertions(+), 25 deletions(-)

> I'm not quite sure I buy Ingo's original argument also.  If he's only 
> looking at text size then with the above fixed then he ideally would 
> like to not inline anything (because except these exceptions above 
> .text usually near always shrinks when not inlining). But that's not 
> necessarily best for performance.

well, i think the numbers talk for themselves. Here are my latest 
results:

---- 
The effect of the patches on x86, using a generic .config is:

    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
 3286166  869852  387260 4543278  45532e vmlinux-orig
 3194123  955168  387260 4536551  4538e7 vmlinux-inline
 3119495  884960  387748 4392203  43050b vmlinux-inline+units
 3051709  869380  387748 4308837  41bf65 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes
 3049357  868928  387748 4306033  41b471 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes+capable

i.e. a 7.8% code-size reduction. Using a tiny .config gives:

   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
 437271   77646   32192  547109   85925 vmlinux-orig
 452694   77646   32192  562532   89564 vmlinux-inline
 431891   77422   32128  541441   84301 vmlinux-inline+units
 414803   77422   32128  524353   80041 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes
 414020   77422   32128  523570   7fd32 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes+capable

or an 5.6% reduction.

i've also done test-builds with CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE disabled:

    text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
 4080998  870384  387260 5338642  517612 vmlinux-orig
 4084421  872024  387260 5343705  5189d9 vmlinux-inline
 4010957  834048  387748 5232753  4fd871 vmlinux-inline+units
 4010039  833112  387748 5230899  4fd133 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes
 4007617  833120  387748 5228485  4fc7c5 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes+capable

or a 1.8% code size reduction.

	Ingo

--------
Subject: mark a handful of inline functions as 'must inline'

this patch marks a number of functions as 'must inline' - so that they
get inlined even if optimizing for size. This patch gives another 2-3%
of size saved, when CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE is enabled.

Signed-off-by: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>

----

 include/asm-i386/apic.h        |    6 +++---
 include/asm-i386/bitops.h      |    2 +-
 include/asm-i386/current.h     |    2 +-
 include/asm-i386/string.h      |    8 ++++----
 include/linux/buffer_head.h    |   10 +++++-----
 include/linux/byteorder/swab.h |   18 +++++++++---------
 include/linux/mm.h             |    2 +-
 include/linux/slab.h           |    2 +-
 8 files changed, 25 insertions(+), 25 deletions(-)

Index: linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/apic.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/asm-i386/apic.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/apic.h
@@ -49,17 +49,17 @@ static inline void lapic_enable(void)
  * Basic functions accessing APICs.
  */
 
-static __inline void apic_write(unsigned long reg, unsigned long v)
+static __always_inline void apic_write(unsigned long reg, unsigned long v)
 {
 	*((volatile unsigned long *)(APIC_BASE+reg)) = v;
 }
 
-static __inline void apic_write_atomic(unsigned long reg, unsigned long v)
+static __always_inline void apic_write_atomic(unsigned long reg, unsigned long v)
 {
 	xchg((volatile unsigned long *)(APIC_BASE+reg), v);
 }
 
-static __inline unsigned long apic_read(unsigned long reg)
+static __always_inline unsigned long apic_read(unsigned long reg)
 {
 	return *((volatile unsigned long *)(APIC_BASE+reg));
 }
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/bitops.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/asm-i386/bitops.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/bitops.h
@@ -247,7 +247,7 @@ static inline int test_and_change_bit(in
 static int test_bit(int nr, const volatile void * addr);
 #endif
 
-static inline int constant_test_bit(int nr, const volatile unsigned long *addr)
+static __always_inline int constant_test_bit(int nr, const volatile unsigned long *addr)
 {
 	return ((1UL << (nr & 31)) & (addr[nr >> 5])) != 0;
 }
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/current.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/asm-i386/current.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/current.h
@@ -5,7 +5,7 @@
 
 struct task_struct;
 
-static inline struct task_struct * get_current(void)
+static __always_inline struct task_struct * get_current(void)
 {
 	return current_thread_info()->task;
 }
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/string.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/asm-i386/string.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/asm-i386/string.h
@@ -201,7 +201,7 @@ __asm__ __volatile__(
 return __res;
 }
 
-static inline void * __memcpy(void * to, const void * from, size_t n)
+static __always_inline void * __memcpy(void * to, const void * from, size_t n)
 {
 int d0, d1, d2;
 __asm__ __volatile__(
@@ -223,7 +223,7 @@ return (to);
  * This looks ugly, but the compiler can optimize it totally,
  * as the count is constant.
  */
-static inline void * __constant_memcpy(void * to, const void * from, size_t n)
+static __always_inline void * __constant_memcpy(void * to, const void * from, size_t n)
 {
 	long esi, edi;
 	if (!n) return to;
@@ -367,7 +367,7 @@ return s;
  * things 32 bits at a time even when we don't know the size of the
  * area at compile-time..
  */
-static inline void * __constant_c_memset(void * s, unsigned long c, size_t count)
+static __always_inline void * __constant_c_memset(void * s, unsigned long c, size_t count)
 {
 int d0, d1;
 __asm__ __volatile__(
@@ -416,7 +416,7 @@ extern char *strstr(const char *cs, cons
  * This looks horribly ugly, but the compiler can optimize it totally,
  * as we by now know that both pattern and count is constant..
  */
-static inline void * __constant_c_and_count_memset(void * s, unsigned long pattern, size_t count)
+static __always_inline void * __constant_c_and_count_memset(void * s, unsigned long pattern, size_t count)
 {
 	switch (count) {
 		case 0:
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/linux/buffer_head.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/linux/buffer_head.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/linux/buffer_head.h
@@ -72,15 +72,15 @@ struct buffer_head {
  * and buffer_foo() functions.
  */
 #define BUFFER_FNS(bit, name)						\
-static inline void set_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)		\
+static __always_inline void set_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)	\
 {									\
 	set_bit(BH_##bit, &(bh)->b_state);				\
 }									\
-static inline void clear_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)		\
+static __always_inline void clear_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)	\
 {									\
 	clear_bit(BH_##bit, &(bh)->b_state);				\
 }									\
-static inline int buffer_##name(const struct buffer_head *bh)		\
+static __always_inline int buffer_##name(const struct buffer_head *bh)	\
 {									\
 	return test_bit(BH_##bit, &(bh)->b_state);			\
 }
@@ -89,11 +89,11 @@ static inline int buffer_##name(const st
  * test_set_buffer_foo() and test_clear_buffer_foo()
  */
 #define TAS_BUFFER_FNS(bit, name)					\
-static inline int test_set_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)	\
+static __always_inline int test_set_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)\
 {									\
 	return test_and_set_bit(BH_##bit, &(bh)->b_state);		\
 }									\
-static inline int test_clear_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)	\
+static __always_inline int test_clear_buffer_##name(struct buffer_head *bh)\
 {									\
 	return test_and_clear_bit(BH_##bit, &(bh)->b_state);		\
 }									\
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/linux/byteorder/swab.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/linux/byteorder/swab.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/linux/byteorder/swab.h
@@ -130,34 +130,34 @@
 #endif /* OPTIMIZE */
 
 
-static __inline__ __attribute_const__ __u16 __fswab16(__u16 x)
+static __always_inline __attribute_const__ __u16 __fswab16(__u16 x)
 {
 	return __arch__swab16(x);
 }
-static __inline__ __u16 __swab16p(const __u16 *x)
+static __always_inline __u16 __swab16p(const __u16 *x)
 {
 	return __arch__swab16p(x);
 }
-static __inline__ void __swab16s(__u16 *addr)
+static __always_inline void __swab16s(__u16 *addr)
 {
 	__arch__swab16s(addr);
 }
 
-static __inline__ __attribute_const__ __u32 __fswab32(__u32 x)
+static __always_inline __attribute_const__ __u32 __fswab32(__u32 x)
 {
 	return __arch__swab32(x);
 }
-static __inline__ __u32 __swab32p(const __u32 *x)
+static __always_inline __u32 __swab32p(const __u32 *x)
 {
 	return __arch__swab32p(x);
 }
-static __inline__ void __swab32s(__u32 *addr)
+static __always_inline void __swab32s(__u32 *addr)
 {
 	__arch__swab32s(addr);
 }
 
 #ifdef __BYTEORDER_HAS_U64__
-static __inline__ __attribute_const__ __u64 __fswab64(__u64 x)
+static __always_inline __attribute_const__ __u64 __fswab64(__u64 x)
 {
 #  ifdef __SWAB_64_THRU_32__
 	__u32 h = x >> 32;
@@ -167,11 +167,11 @@ static __inline__ __attribute_const__ __
 	return __arch__swab64(x);
 #  endif
 }
-static __inline__ __u64 __swab64p(const __u64 *x)
+static __always_inline __u64 __swab64p(const __u64 *x)
 {
 	return __arch__swab64p(x);
 }
-static __inline__ void __swab64s(__u64 *addr)
+static __always_inline void __swab64s(__u64 *addr)
 {
 	__arch__swab64s(addr);
 }
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/linux/mm.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/linux/mm.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/linux/mm.h
@@ -507,7 +507,7 @@ static inline void set_page_links(struct
 extern struct page *mem_map;
 #endif
 
-static inline void *lowmem_page_address(struct page *page)
+static __always_inline void *lowmem_page_address(struct page *page)
 {
 	return __va(page_to_pfn(page) << PAGE_SHIFT);
 }
Index: linux-gcc.q/include/linux/slab.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/linux/slab.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/linux/slab.h
@@ -76,7 +76,7 @@ struct cache_sizes {
 extern struct cache_sizes malloc_sizes[];
 extern void *__kmalloc(size_t, gfp_t);
 
-static inline void *kmalloc(size_t size, gfp_t flags)
+static __always_inline void *kmalloc(size_t size, gfp_t flags)
 {
 	if (__builtin_constant_p(size)) {
 		int i = 0;

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:

> > I'm not quite sure I buy Ingo's original argument also.  If he's only 
> > looking at text size then with the above fixed then he ideally would 
> > like to not inline anything (because except these exceptions above 
> > .text usually near always shrinks when not inlining). But that's not 
> > necessarily best for performance.
> 
> well, i think the numbers talk for themselves. Here are my latest 
> results:

i now have x86 allyesconfig numbers too:

    text     data     bss      dec  filename
 24190215 6737902 1775592 32703709  vmlinux-allyes-speed-orig
 20096423 6758758 1775592 28630773  vmlinux-allyes-orig
 19223511 6844002 1775656 27843169  vmlinux-allyes-inline+units+fixes+capable

i.e. enabling CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE gives a 20.4% size reduction, 
and adding my latest debloating-queue ontop of gives an additional 4.5% 
of reduction. The queue is at:

  http://redhat.com/~mingo/debloating-patches/

note: my focus is still mostly on CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE (which is only 
offered if CONFIG_EMBEDDED is enabled) - if you want a larger kernel 
optimized for speed, do not enable it.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 11:14:43AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>...
> note: my focus is still mostly on CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE (which is only 
> offered if CONFIG_EMBEDDED is enabled) - if you want a larger kernel 
> optimized for speed, do not enable it.

Since 2.6.15-rc6, CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE only depends on EXPERIMENTAL.

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Christian Trefzer]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 626 bytes --]

Hi Ingo,

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 11:14:43AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu> wrote:
> 
> [...] The queue is at:
> 
>   http://redhat.com/~mingo/debloating-patches/
> 

I was curious and applied among others the uninline-capable patch, with
the result that modules complain about an unknown symbol "capable". The
attached patch is a manually adapted version of yours, extended by the
EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL required for modules to load again.

The code with the EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL line works (I am currently running
that kernel) and the patch should apply cleanly.

Regards,
Chris


[-- Attachment #1.2: uninline-and-export-capable.patch --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 1639 bytes --]

Subject: uninline capable()

uninline capable(). Saves 2K of kernel text on a generic .config, and 1K
on a tiny config.

Signed-off-by: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>

----

 include/linux/sched.h |   15 ++-------------
 kernel/sys.c          |   11 +++++++++++
 2 files changed, 13 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)

Index: linux-gcc.q/include/linux/sched.h
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/include/linux/sched.h
+++ linux-gcc.q/include/linux/sched.h
@@ -1102,19 +1102,8 @@ static inline int sas_ss_flags(unsigned 
 }
 
 
-#ifdef CONFIG_SECURITY
-/* code is in security.c */
-extern int capable(int cap);
-#else
-static inline int capable(int cap)
-{
-	if (cap_raised(current->cap_effective, cap)) {
-		current->flags |= PF_SUPERPRIV;
-		return 1;
-	}
-	return 0;
-}
-#endif
+/* code is in security.c or kernel/sys.c if !SECURITY */
+extern int FASTCALL(capable(int cap));
 
 /*
  * Routines for handling mm_structs
Index: linux-gcc.q/kernel/sys.c
===================================================================
--- linux-gcc.q.orig/kernel/sys.c
+++ linux-gcc.q/kernel/sys.c
@@ -222,6 +222,18 @@ int unregister_reboot_notifier(struct no
 
 EXPORT_SYMBOL(unregister_reboot_notifier);
 
+#ifndef CONFIG_SECURITY
+int fastcall capable(int cap)
+{
+        if (cap_raised(current->cap_effective, cap)) {
+	       current->flags |= PF_SUPERPRIV;
+	       return 1;
+        }
+        return 0;
+}
+EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL(capable);
+#endif
+
 static int set_one_prio(struct task_struct *p, int niceval, int error)
 {
 	int no_nice;

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 827 bytes --]

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Andi Kleen]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 10:40:45AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>     text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
>  4080998  870384  387260 5338642  517612 vmlinux-orig
>  4084421  872024  387260 5343705  5189d9 vmlinux-inline
>  4010957  834048  387748 5232753  4fd871 vmlinux-inline+units
>  4010039  833112  387748 5230899  4fd133 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes
>  4007617  833120  387748 5228485  4fc7c5 vmlinux-inline+units+fixes+capable
> 
> or a 1.8% code size reduction.

But again if you only look at text size you ideally would want
to never inline anything, except the cases above and only called
once functions. So just turn it off except when forced? That would
be the logical conclusion from your strategy. I'm not sure it's a good
one.

-Andi

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Rogério Brito]

On Dec 28 2005, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> how about giving the inlining stuff some more exposure in -mm (if it's 
> fine with Andrew), to check for any regressions? I'd suggest the same 
> for the unit-at-a-time thing too, in any case.

I am willing to give a try to the patches on both ia32 and ppc (which is
what I have at hand). I'm using Debian testing, but I can, perhaps, give
GCC 4.1 a shot (if I happen to grab my hands on such patched tree soon
enough).

I am interested in anything that could bring me memory reduction.
Actually, I am even considering using the -tiny patches here on my
father's computer---an old Pentium MMX 200MHz with 64MB of RAM.

Also, the PowerMac 9500 that I have here was inherited from my uncle and
it has a slow SCSI disk (only 2MB/s of transfer rates) and 192MB of RAM.
Anything that makes it avoid hitting swap is a plus, as you can imagine.


Thanks, Rogério.

-- 
Rogério Brito : rbrito@ime.usp.br : http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito
Homepage of the algorithms package : http://algorithms.berlios.de
Homepage on freshmeat:  http://freshmeat.net/projects/algorithms/

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Daniel Jacobowitz]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 10:23:13PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> (there's a third thing that i was also playing with, -ffunction-sections 
> and -fdata-sections, but those dont seem to be reliable on the binutils 
> side yet.)

They should be - I'd bet more on the kernel's linker scripts, and other
weird bits like that.  Feel free to report any problems, though.

However, -ffunction-sections tends to increase size in non-discarded
functions.

-- 
Daniel Jacobowitz
CodeSourcery

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 12:46:37PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> this patchset (for the 2.6.16 tree) consists of two patches:
> 
>   gcc-no-forced-inlining.patch
>   gcc-unit-at-a-time.patch
> 
> the purpose of these patches is to reduce the kernel's .text size, in 
> particular if CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE is specified. The effect of 
> the patches on x86 is:
> 
>     text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
>  3286166  869852  387260 4543278  45532e vmlinux-orig
>  3194123  955168  387260 4536551  4538e7 vmlinux-inline
>...

The most interesting question is:
Which object files do these savings come from

We have two cases in the kernel:
- header files where forced inlining is required
- C files where forced inlining is nearly always wrong

The classical example are functions some marked as "inline" when they 
where tiny and had one caller, but now are huge and have many callers.

An interesting number would be the space saving after doing some kind of 
s/inline//g in all .c files.

> unit-at-a-time still increases the kernel stack footprint somewhat (by 
> about 5% in the CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE case), but not by the insane degree 
> gcc3 used to, which prompted the original -fno-unit-at-a-time addition.
>...

Please hold off this patch.

I do already plan to look at this after the smoke has cleared after the 
4k stacks issue. I want to avoid two different knobs both with negative 
effects on stack usage (currently CONFIG_4KSTACKS=y, and after your 
patch gcc >= 4.0) giving a low testing coverage of the worst cases.

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> > unit-at-a-time still increases the kernel stack footprint somewhat (by 
> > about 5% in the CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE case), but not by the insane degree 
> > gcc3 used to, which prompted the original -fno-unit-at-a-time addition.
> >...
> 
> Please hold off this patch.
> 
> I do already plan to look at this after the smoke has cleared after 
> the 4k stacks issue. I want to avoid two different knobs both with 
> negative effects on stack usage (currently CONFIG_4KSTACKS=y, and 
> after your patch gcc >= 4.0) giving a low testing coverage of the 
> worst cases.

this is obviously not 2.6.15 stuff, so we've got enough time to see the 
effects. [ And what does "I do plan to look at this" mean? When 
precisely, and can i thus go to other topics without the issue being 
dropped on the floor indefinitely? ]

also note that the inlining patch actually _reduces_ average stack 
footprint by ~3-4%:
                                            orig        +inlining
        # of functions above 256 bytes:      683              660
               total stackspace, bytes:   148492           142884

it is the unit-at-a-time patch that increases stack footprint (by about 
7-8%, which together with the inlining patch gives a net ~5%).

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 08:59:36AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> 
> > > unit-at-a-time still increases the kernel stack footprint somewhat (by 
> > > about 5% in the CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE case), but not by the insane degree 
> > > gcc3 used to, which prompted the original -fno-unit-at-a-time addition.
> > >...
> > 
> > Please hold off this patch.
> > 
> > I do already plan to look at this after the smoke has cleared after 
> > the 4k stacks issue. I want to avoid two different knobs both with 
> > negative effects on stack usage (currently CONFIG_4KSTACKS=y, and 
> > after your patch gcc >= 4.0) giving a low testing coverage of the 
> > worst cases.
> 
> this is obviously not 2.6.15 stuff, so we've got enough time to see the 
> effects. [ And what does "I do plan to look at this" mean? When 
> precisely, and can i thus go to other topics without the issue being 
> dropped on the floor indefinitely? ]

It won't be dropped on the floor indefinitely.

"I do plan to look at this" means that I'd currently estimate this being 
2.6.19 stuff.

Yes that's one year from now, but we need it properly analyzed and 
tested before getting it into Linus' tree, and I do really want it 
untangled from and therefore after 4k stacks.

> also note that the inlining patch actually _reduces_ average stack 
> footprint by ~3-4%:
>                                             orig        +inlining
>         # of functions above 256 bytes:      683              660
>                total stackspace, bytes:   148492           142884
> 
> it is the unit-at-a-time patch that increases stack footprint (by about 
> 7-8%, which together with the inlining patch gives a net ~5%).

The problem with the stack is that average stack usage is relatively 
uninteresting - what matters is the worst case stack usage. And I'd 
expect the stack footprint improvements you see with less inlining in 
different places than the deteriorations with unit-at-a-time.

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Horst von Brand]

Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 08:59:36AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > * Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> > > > unit-at-a-time still increases the kernel stack footprint somewhat
> > > > (by about 5% in the CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE case), but not by the
> > > > insane degree gcc3 used to, which prompted the original
> > > > -fno-unit-at-a-time addition.
> > > >...

> > > Please hold off this patch.
> > > 
> > > I do already plan to look at this after the smoke has cleared after 
> > > the 4k stacks issue. I want to avoid two different knobs both with 
> > > negative effects on stack usage (currently CONFIG_4KSTACKS=y, and 
> > > after your patch gcc >= 4.0) giving a low testing coverage of the 
> > > worst cases.

This is /one/ knob with effect on stack usage...

> > this is obviously not 2.6.15 stuff, so we've got enough time to see the 
> > effects. [ And what does "I do plan to look at this" mean? When 
> > precisely, and can i thus go to other topics without the issue being 
> > dropped on the floor indefinitely? ]

> It won't be dropped on the floor indefinitely.
> 
> "I do plan to look at this" means that I'd currently estimate this being 
> 2.6.19 stuff.
> 
> Yes that's one year from now, but we need it properly analyzed and 
> tested before getting it into Linus' tree, and I do really want it 
> untangled from and therefore after 4k stacks.

That is "indefinitely" in my book. Or nearly so. And in the meantime will
get many hackers to patch it in by hand and forget to tell...

> > also note that the inlining patch actually _reduces_ average stack 
> > footprint by ~3-4%:
> >                                             orig        +inlining
> >         # of functions above 256 bytes:      683              660
> >                total stackspace, bytes:   148492           142884
> > 
> > it is the unit-at-a-time patch that increases stack footprint (by about 
> > 7-8%, which together with the inlining patch gives a net ~5%).
> 
> The problem with the stack is that average stack usage is relatively 
> uninteresting - what matters is the worst case stack usage. And I'd 
> expect the stack footprint improvements you see with less inlining in 
> different places than the deteriorations with unit-at-a-time.

That is a red herring. The numbers are for number of large stack users
(goes down) and cummulative stack usage (goes down too). Sure, if the
number of > 256 bytes stack users goes down while the largest stack uses go
up we are in trouble. And if the grand total goes down but stack usage by
some critical users go up we might be screwed. That could be answered by
looking at the details behind the above numbers. But there is only one way
to find out if it causes problems (and fix them)...

I'd (tend to) buy an argument about possible instabilities in that gcc
code, but then again, it has to be tested sometime...

Make it a configuration option, under EXPERIMENTAL, VERY DANGEROUS, HIGH
EXPLOSIVE if you must.
-- 
Dr. Horst H. von Brand                   User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Ingo Molnar]

* Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:

> It won't be dropped on the floor indefinitely.
> 
> "I do plan to look at this" means that I'd currently estimate this 
> being 2.6.19 stuff.

you must be kidding ...

> Yes that's one year from now, but we need it properly analyzed and 
> tested before getting it into Linus' tree, and I do really want it 
> untangled from and therefore after 4k stacks.

you are really using the wrong technology for this.

look at the latency tracing patch i posted today: it includes a feature 
that prints the worst-case stack footprint _as it happens_, and thus 
allows the mapping of such effects in a very efficient and very 
practical way. As it works on a live system, and profiles live function 
traces, it goes through function pointers and irq entry nesting effects 
too. We could perhaps put that into Fedora for a while and get the 
worst-case footprints mapped.

in fact i've been running this feature in the -rt kernel for quite some 
time, and it enabled the fixing of a couple of bad stack abusers, and it 
also told us what our current worst-case stack footprint is [when 4K 
stacks are enabled]: it's execve of an ELF binary.

	Ingo

Re: [patch 00/2] improve .text size on gcc 4.0 and newer compilers

[Adrian Bunk]

[ this email discusses only your unit-at-a-time patch ]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 09:25:50PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> 
> > It won't be dropped on the floor indefinitely.
> > 
> > "I do plan to look at this" means that I'd currently estimate this 
> > being 2.6.19 stuff.
> 
> you must be kidding ...

No.

Both 4k stacks and unit-at-a-time are changes with negative impact on 
the stack usage, and I want to have problems sorted out separately.

We wouldn't have much discussion here if 4k stacks were only judged by 
technical facts, but although the last known problem was fixed in -mm 
nearly two months ago, it seems the ndiswrapper groupies have managed to 
spread enough FUD to even persuade Andrew that 4k stacks were evil.  :-(

> > Yes that's one year from now, but we need it properly analyzed and 
> > tested before getting it into Linus' tree, and I do really want it 
> > untangled from and therefore after 4k stacks.
> 
> you are really using the wrong technology for this.
> 
> look at the latency tracing patch i posted today: it includes a feature 
> that prints the worst-case stack footprint _as it happens_, and thus 
> allows the mapping of such effects in a very efficient and very 
> practical way. As it works on a live system, and profiles live function 
> traces, it goes through function pointers and irq entry nesting effects 
> too. We could perhaps put that into Fedora for a while and get the 
> worst-case footprints mapped.
> 
> in fact i've been running this feature in the -rt kernel for quite some 
> time, and it enabled the fixing of a couple of bad stack abusers, and it 
> also told us what our current worst-case stack footprint is [when 4K 
> stacks are enabled]: it's execve of an ELF binary.

That's nice.

Could you try to get at least the part that checks whether more than 
STACK_WARN stack is left (if CONFIG_DEBUG_STACKOVERFLOW is set) into
-mm (and perhaps later into Linus' tree)?

> 	Ingo

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: userspace breakage

[Jiri Slaby]

[sorry for suplicity (if any)]

Dave Jones napsal(a):
>With 2.6.14 on my testbox, I get this..
>
>$ ls /dev/input/
>event0  event1  mice  mouse0
>
>With 2.6.15rc
>
>$ ls /dev/input/
>mice
>
I don't know what's wrong, but
$ uname -a
Linux bellona 2.6.15-rc7 #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Dec 30 02:56:57 CET 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
$ cat /etc/fedora-release
Fedora Core release 4 (Stentz)
$ rpm -q udev hal
udev-077-1
hal-0.5.5.1-1
from SRPMS from http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/SRPMS/
[maybe this is the difference? btw. despite, rc5-mm3 sound is defunct -- sound class is under device's class]
and at last the point of this e-mail:

$ ls /dev/input/
event0  event1  mice  mouse0  wacom

(udev created them, I'm sure)

all the best,
-- 
Jiri Slaby         www.fi.muni.cz/~xslaby
\_.-^-._   jirislaby@gmail.com   _.-^-._/
B67499670407CE62ACC8 22A032CC55C339D47A7E