Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Jeff V. Merkey]

I have been working on 2.6.9 kernels with red hat ES4 series 
distributions (we purchased and have a license).  I noticed that the ES4 
series kernels
which support NPTL libs no longer provide the source code with the 
distribution (the installed kernels sources point to empty source trees 
which
only contain makefiles).   I have discovered we have to use our Red Hat 
Network account in order to download the Source RPMs
(which are in fact provided).

We got the distro via electronic fullfilment, so we did not get the 
SRPMS CD iso images by default.  This was a deviation from how Red Hat
normally distributes source code with their Linux distro.

I am curious if Red Hat views requiring people subscribing to RHN as a 
requirement to obtain source code is in conflict with the GPL.  We
have no objection to downloading it since we have an account, but I 
found it strange Red Hat, the leaders in Open Source and GPL
technology, now appear to block downloads of ES4 source code without a 
subscription.  Have I got it all wrong here, or is this borderline GPL
avoidance?

I am unable to locate the Source Code on any public servers at Red Hat.

Jeff

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Joel Jaeggli]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

>
> I have been working on 2.6.9 kernels with red hat ES4 series distributions 
> (we purchased and have a license).  I noticed that the ES4 series kernels
> which support NPTL libs no longer provide the source code with the 
> distribution (the installed kernels sources point to empty source trees which
> only contain makefiles).   I have discovered we have to use our Red Hat 
> Network account in order to download the Source RPMs
> (which are in fact provided).
>
> We got the distro via electronic fullfilment, so we did not get the SRPMS CD 
> iso images by default.  This was a deviation from how Red Hat
> normally distributes source code with their Linux distro.
>
> I am curious if Red Hat views requiring people subscribing to RHN as a 
> requirement to obtain source code is in conflict with the GPL.  We
> have no objection to downloading it since we have an account, but I found it 
> strange Red Hat, the leaders in Open Source and GPL
> technology, now appear to block downloads of ES4 source code without a 
> subscription.  Have I got it all wrong here, or is this borderline GPL
> avoidance?
>
> I am unable to locate the Source Code on any public servers at Red Hat.

is this the one you're looking for:

ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/4/en/os/i386/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.9-5.EL.src.rpm

ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/enterprise/4WS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.9-22.0.2.EL.src.rpm

> Jeff
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
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>

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Jaeggli  	       Unix Consulting 	       joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu
GPG Key Fingerprint:     5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Joel Jaeggli wrote:

That's the one. Thanks. I looked all over the place and could not find 
it. I am concerned they are not shipping the Source Code with the Distro,
which is what they normally do.

Jeff

> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>>
>> I have been working on 2.6.9 kernels with red hat ES4 series 
>> distributions (we purchased and have a license). I noticed that the 
>> ES4 series kernels
>> which support NPTL libs no longer provide the source code with the 
>> distribution (the installed kernels sources point to empty source 
>> trees which
>> only contain makefiles). I have discovered we have to use our Red Hat 
>> Network account in order to download the Source RPMs
>> (which are in fact provided).
>>
>> We got the distro via electronic fullfilment, so we did not get the 
>> SRPMS CD iso images by default. This was a deviation from how Red Hat
>> normally distributes source code with their Linux distro.
>>
>> I am curious if Red Hat views requiring people subscribing to RHN as 
>> a requirement to obtain source code is in conflict with the GPL. We
>> have no objection to downloading it since we have an account, but I 
>> found it strange Red Hat, the leaders in Open Source and GPL
>> technology, now appear to block downloads of ES4 source code without 
>> a subscription. Have I got it all wrong here, or is this borderline GPL
>> avoidance?
>>
>> I am unable to locate the Source Code on any public servers at Red Hat.
>
>
> is this the one you're looking for:
>
> ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/4/en/os/i386/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.9-5.EL.src.rpm 
>
>
> ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/enterprise/4WS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.9-22.0.2.EL.src.rpm 
>
>
>> Jeff
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
>> linux-kernel" in
>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>>
>

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 17:11 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> I have been working on 2.6.9 kernels with red hat ES4 series 
> distributions (we purchased and have a license).  I noticed that the ES4 
> series kernels
> which support NPTL libs no longer provide the source code with the 
> distribution (the installed kernels sources point to empty source trees 
> which
> only contain makefiles).   I have discovered we have to use our Red Hat 
> Network account in order to download the Source RPMs
> (which are in fact provided).
> 
> We got the distro via electronic fullfilment, so we did not get the 
> SRPMS CD iso images by default.  

that sounds wrong; these ISOs are just there as well for download where
you downloaded the binary ones. 


> I am curious if Red Hat views requiring people subscribing to RHN as a 
> requirement to obtain source code is in conflict with the GPL. 

I doubt they do; you need the same subscription to get the binaries in
the first place, and when you get the binaries the sources are in the
same location. For all intents and purposes that is "sources come with
the binaries". If you select to be cheap and only download half, that's
your problem ;-)


In addition, Red Hat also publishes the src.rpms on their FTP site, even
though the GPL does not require them to do so. But just to be nice. 


I think you're talking out of the place the sun don't shine this time
sir ;-)

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@soleranetworks.com> said:
>We got the distro via electronic fullfilment, so we did not get the 
>SRPMS CD iso images by default.  This was a deviation from how Red Hat
>normally distributes source code with their Linux distro.

You had the opportunity to download the SRPMS ISOs at the same time you
downloaded the binary ISOs; you chose not to.  That is no different than
how any of the distributions handle things (Red Hat has always had the
binary and source ISOs available at the same location).

Also, Red Hat goes above and beyond with their source distribution; the
GPL only requires them to distribute source to their customers (those
that get the binaries), but Red Hat distributes all the RHEL source RPMs
freely on their FTP site as well as on the FTP sites of many mirrors
(that's also how they distribute debuginfo packages).

ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Nick Warne]

> Also, Red Hat goes above and beyond with their source distribution; the
> GPL only requires them to distribute source to their customers (those
> that get the binaries), but Red Hat distributes all the RHEL source RPMs
> freely on their FTP site as well as on the FTP sites of many mirrors
> (that's also how they distribute debuginfo packages).
>
> ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/
>

There is also a distro that is RHEL but with all the copyright logos
etc. removed.

http://www.whiteboxlinux.org/

But anyway, what has this thread to do with the kernel?

Nick

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Arjan van de Ven]

> But anyway, what has this thread to do with the kernel?


since when does something need to be on-topic for Jeff Merkey to post to
lkml ? ;-)

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

>>But anyway, what has this thread to do with the kernel?
>>    
>>
>
>
>since when does something need to be on-topic for Jeff Merkey to post to
>lkml ? ;-)
>
>  
>

I got the RPM's and located them from an earlier responder to the post.  
It was just disturbing
that RedHat does ont include the sources when you install from binary -- 
which they always have
before. 

Thought I would ask folks since this is where people raise GPL inquiries 
(at least as a first step),
and it appeared to be the right place becuase the issue was resolved 
within 5 minutes of the post.
I do kernel development in a company that supports Linux and ships Linux 
appliances and I
have a lot of significant and valuable kernel development, so kernel 
development issues,
like "Where the hell have they hidden Linus' source code" are relevant.

I am glad Red Hat is still distributing the code, but I am disappointed 
they are no longer
including it in the base RPM install.

Jeff

>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>
>  
>

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Thu, 2006-02-23 at 11:15 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
> >>But anyway, what has this thread to do with the kernel?
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >since when does something need to be on-topic for Jeff Merkey to post to
> >lkml ? ;-)
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> I got the RPM's and located them from an earlier responder to the post.  
> It was just disturbing
> that RedHat does ont include the sources when you install from binary -- 
> which they always have
> before. 
> 

you forgot to download the cd images labeled "source".
What's the problem???

> I am glad Red Hat is still distributing the code, but I am disappointed 
> they are no longer
> including it in the base RPM install.

oh you don't mean the src.rpm but the full kernel source code installed?
That's explained in the release notes; it's 2 shell commands to create
it, and it's in a way silly to make an exception for the kernel here
compared to all other software. And CD real estate on the binary cd's is
scarse as well. 

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Jeff V. Merkey]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

>On Thu, 2006-02-23 at 11:15 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>  
>
>>Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>But anyway, what has this thread to do with the kernel?
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>since when does something need to be on-topic for Jeff Merkey to post to
>>>lkml ? ;-)
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I got the RPM's and located them from an earlier responder to the post.  
>>It was just disturbing
>>that RedHat does ont include the sources when you install from binary -- 
>>which they always have
>>before. 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>you forgot to download the cd images labeled "source".
>What's the problem???
>  
>
I did not download them, procuement here did and they did not grab the 
SRPMS iso's

>  
>
>>I am glad Red Hat is still distributing the code, but I am disappointed 
>>they are no longer
>>including it in the base RPM install.
>>    
>>
>
>oh you don't mean the src.rpm but the full kernel source code installed?
>That's explained in the release notes; it's 2 shell commands to create
>it, and it's in a way silly to make an exception for the kernel here
>compared to all other software. And CD real estate on the binary cd's is
>scarse as well. 
>
>
>
>  
>
I know but this deviates from how they did it in the past.  No worry, 
sooner or later Linux will get so
large in these distros, you will need a DVD to hold all of it, so I can 
understand if space was at a premium
on those CD iso images.

:-)

Jeff

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 11:45:46AM -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> I know but this deviates from how they did it in the past.  No worry, 
> sooner or later Linux will get so
> large in these distros, you will need a DVD to hold all of it, so I can 
> understand if space was at a premium
> on those CD iso images.

Debian takes 2 DVDs for binaries and 2 DVDs for sources.  I think we may
need BD-ROM or HD-DVD real soon. :)

Len Sorensen

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[Ingo Molnar]

* Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 11:45:46AM -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> > I know but this deviates from how they did it in the past.  No worry, 
> > sooner or later Linux will get so
> > large in these distros, you will need a DVD to hold all of it, so I can 
> > understand if space was at a premium
> > on those CD iso images.
> 
> Debian takes 2 DVDs for binaries and 2 DVDs for sources.  I think we 
> may need BD-ROM or HD-DVD real soon. :)

btw., this 5GB+ of compressed source code means (using conservative 
calculations, and taking code duplication across projects and packages 
into account), that the raw linecount of the OSS source codebase 
distributed via Debian has exceeded half a billion (500 million) lines 
of code. Wow!

That makes Linux and OSS the largest man-made science project in
history. It also means that the cost of redeveloping the Debian codebase
using commerical methods could exceed 100 billion US dollars. [Sidenote:
no wonder the only remaining anti-Linux company (MS) is worried - they
are quite big and rich, but no way can they hold up against such type of
grass-roots exponential growth, and they know it.]

	Ingo

Re: Red Hat ES4 GPL Issues?

[jdow]

From: "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>

> Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 2006-02-23 at 11:15 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>>>But anyway, what has this thread to do with the kernel?
>>>>>   
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>>>>
>>>>since when does something need to be on-topic for Jeff Merkey to post to
>>>>lkml ? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>I got the RPM's and located them from an earlier responder to the post.  
>>>It was just disturbing
>>>that RedHat does ont include the sources when you install from binary -- 
>>>which they always have
>>>before. 
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>you forgot to download the cd images labeled "source".
>>What's the problem???
>>  
>>
> I did not download them, procuement here did and they did not grab the 
> SRPMS iso's

So they screwed up. That is not RedHat's fault. This is the way they
have always made a distribution since source and binary outgrew a single
disk. Binary's on one disk and Sources on another. Eventually it became
binaries on several disks and sources on several other disks.

>>>I am glad Red Hat is still distributing the code, but I am disappointed 
>>>they are no longer
>>>including it in the base RPM install.
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>oh you don't mean the src.rpm but the full kernel source code installed?
>>That's explained in the release notes; it's 2 shell commands to create
>>it, and it's in a way silly to make an exception for the kernel here
>>compared to all other software. And CD real estate on the binary cd's is
>>scarse as well. 
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
> I know but this deviates from how they did it in the past.  No worry, 
> sooner or later Linux will get so
> large in these distros, you will need a DVD to hold all of it, so I can 
> understand if space was at a premium
> on those CD iso images.

When's the last time you did a RedHat install?

{^_^}   Joanne