From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932425AbWGYEGS (ORCPT ); Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:06:18 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S932427AbWGYEGS (ORCPT ); Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:06:18 -0400 Received: from smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.98]:2656 "HELO smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id S932425AbWGYEGS (ORCPT ); Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:06:18 -0400 Message-ID: <44C598F0.5030408@sbcglobal.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:07:12 -0500 From: Matthew Frost Reply-To: artusemrys@sbcglobal.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Boldi CC: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: the " 'official' point of view" expressed by kernelnewbies.org References: <200607241857.38889.a1426z@gawab.com> In-Reply-To: <200607241857.38889.a1426z@gawab.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Al Boldi wrote: > Jeff Garzik wrote: >> Hans Reiser wrote: >>> As the other poster mentioned, they went off to startups, and did not >>> become part of our community. How much of that was because their >>> contributions were more hassled than welcomed, I cannot say with >>> certainty, I can only say that they were discouraged by the difficulty >>> of getting their stuff in, and this was not as it should have been. >>> They were more knowledgeable than we were on the topics they spoke on, >>> and this was not recognized and acknowledged. >>> >>> Outsiders are not respected by the kernel community. This means we miss >>> a lot. >> Anyone who fails to respect the kernel development process, the process >> of building consensus, is turn not respected, flamed, and/or ignored. >> >> If you don't respect us, why should we respect you? > > Respect what? The process or the content? > > Rejecting content due to disrespect for process guidelines would be rather > sad. > > If the content is worth its salt, it should be accepted w/o delay, then > modified to comply with the process guidelines as necessary. It's what the > GPL allows, afterall. > I just love it when people try to ignore a longstanding social system and butt right in, demanding to be heard and acted upon with all haste. Politeness and protocol are essential social lubricants for a system that doesn't work that well to begin with. You've seen this fortune entry before. As a system administrator, how do you handle a process that repeatedly violates system policy? That repeatedly submits bad input and defies correction? A user that repeatedly attempts to circumvent priority and management structures? Is that content 'worth its salt' if it violates the good order of the system? Or do you attempt to fix the program, or educate the user? And when that fails, don't you kill that process, or kick that user and revoke their privileges? The kernel developers have done better than they had to for a repeated violation of protocol, and an obnoxious attitude towards proper procedure and politeness. Yes, there were responses in kind, and flames back and forth, but there were helpful suggestions and good advice, mostly seen as affront to the 'importance' of this particular project. The very attitude that "If it's good enough, it doesn't need to obey protocol" is what has killed Reiser4. Understand this, above all. Submit output that can be taken as input by this system without judicious additional parsing. Be UNIX-like. Do many separate things separately, do them each well, and submit them to be executed atomically. If one fails, fix it and resubmit. Reiser4 has not earned privileges above any other user on this system. > Thanks! Any time. > -- > Al > Matt