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From: Matthew Frost <artusemrys@sbcglobal.net>
To: v j <vj.linux@gmail.com>
Cc: Scott Preece <sepreece@gmail.com>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: GPL vs non-GPL device drivers
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:52:28 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <45D5EF5C.3080405@sbcglobal.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <9b3a62ab0702151800r3fdb6d64offc6e1de5837b4fd@mail.gmail.com>

v j wrote:
> Assuming these need not be GPL, I have a problem with
> EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL and the general trend in the direction of making
> proprietary drivers harder on companies. Our drivers use basic
> interfaces in the kernel like open, read, write, ioctl, semaphores,
> interrupts, timers etc. This is functionality we would expect from any
> operating system. We used devfs before and had no problems there. Greg
> KH has gone and made the basic sysfs interface, which any generic
> driver could use as EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL. I don't really care, I just
> don't use sysfs. The point is that old functionality is being ripped
> off and new ones introduced, and their interfaces are not open
> anymore. Hence there will be a point where non-GPLed drivers simply
> cannot be loaded.

And you really should look at why devfs was removed.  It had nothing to do with
closing interfaces.  It had to do with the code itself, and I really should say
nothing more about devfs without my nomex jockeys on.  In replacement, in 2.5,
sysfs evolved.  You can't just point at Greg and say "He's the one stopping me
from doing what I want!"  This is a standard kernel interface, agreed upon by
the usual "rough consensus and running code" methodology.  It simply happens to
be the case that the new code respects a reality which evolved with sysfs
development.  Tainting the kernel on non-GPL module insertion dates from 2001,
early 2.4-series.  Just for a quick google-grep, you can find a very early
explanation for a similar problem in an article by Jerry Epplin, dated March 4,
2001, here:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9161119242.html

Your "3 years ago" timeline surely comes after this information was available.
The reality has changed somewhat, as can be expected over six years and many
arguments and legal consultations.  However, if you do your research, as much as
we'd love to be able to simply ignore non-GPL (especially binary,
no-source-available) modules, we don't.  They just can't use much that is
Linux-unique, and practically nothing that is new.  If you could compile this as
a driver for any UNIX, using POSIXly available interfaces, you would have far
fewer problems.  Any standard syscall that you could get from any standard
(UNIX) operating system, just like you say that you expect.  Or you can do the
nVidia dance, and have to adjust what you can use that is exported, as that
patently non-standard interface changes.  But for your average fire-and-forget
embedded space, that dance only usually gets done once per release.

Your problem is double, of course, because you *distribute non-GPL drivers in a
running Linux*, which is commonly acknowledged to be a problem.  We can't help
you there.  We don't even want to.  And you have it easy!  You just don't like
the idea of releasing your code.  You can't say "Oh, we incorporate patented and
trade secret information which we licensed but cannot divulge".  You're doing it
to yourself.

Sorry,
Matt

  parent reply	other threads:[~2007-02-16 17:57 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 255+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <9b3a62ab0702142115m4ea7d2c0m6869eb64ef3ee14e@mail.gmail.com>
2007-02-15  5:16 ` GPL vs non-GPL device drivers v j
     [not found]   ` <75b66ecd0702142130x64824694ieee1869d0d70ab15@mail.gmail.com>
2007-02-15  5:38     ` v j
2007-02-15  5:47   ` Trent Waddington
     [not found]     ` <9b3a62ab0702142214p5c33a02am7e783c59ae0a64f1@mail.gmail.com>
2007-02-15  6:16       ` v j
2007-02-15 12:45         ` Neil Horman
2007-02-15  6:35       ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15  6:46         ` v j
2007-02-15  6:56           ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15  7:32           ` Dave Jones
2007-02-15  9:44             ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-15 10:50               ` Dave Jones
2007-02-15 14:24             ` Jan De Luyck
2007-02-15 14:37               ` Benny Amorsen
2007-02-15 14:47                 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15 17:49                 ` Jan Knutar
2007-02-15  7:55           ` Neil Brown
2007-02-15 14:45           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15 20:21           ` Chris Snook
2007-02-15 22:34             ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-16  4:20             ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-15  6:11   ` Dave Jones
2007-02-15  6:27     ` v j
2007-02-15  6:43       ` Neil Brown
2007-02-15  6:55         ` v j
2007-02-15  7:02           ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15  7:09             ` v j
2007-02-15  7:18               ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15  7:30               ` Neil Brown
2007-02-15 11:52                 ` Adrian Bunk
2007-02-15  7:11       ` Randy Dunlap
2007-02-15  7:28         ` v j
2007-02-15  7:43           ` Neil Brown
2007-02-15  7:53             ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15  8:11               ` Neil Brown
2007-02-15  8:35                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15 20:56               ` David Schwartz
2007-02-15 21:51                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-16  0:38                   ` David Schwartz
2007-02-16 12:53                     ` Adrian Bunk
2007-02-17  2:42                       ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17  8:29                         ` Neil Brown
2007-02-18  2:55                           ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-18  3:26                             ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-18  6:56                               ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-18  7:20                                 ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-18  8:54                                 ` Oleg Verych
2007-02-18 23:42                                   ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-18 13:57                               ` Theodore Tso
2007-02-18 21:16                                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-18  1:26                         ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-18  1:28                           ` David Lang
2007-02-18  1:51                             ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-19 17:48                           ` David Schwartz
2007-02-19 20:55                             ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-19 21:53                               ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-19 22:26                                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-19 22:48                                   ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-19 22:58                                     ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-19 23:18                                       ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-19 23:26                                         ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-20  0:28                                           ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-20  0:36                                             ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-20  0:50                                               ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-20  0:55                                                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-20  0:58                                                 ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-20  1:00                                                   ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-20  7:48                                                   ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-20  8:24                                                     ` v j
2007-02-20  9:01                                                     ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-20  1:29                                       ` David Schwartz
2007-02-20  5:19                                         ` v j
2007-02-20 10:54                                           ` Nick Piggin
2007-02-20 11:00                                           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-20 15:14                                             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2007-02-20 15:39                                               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-20 14:36                                           ` Helge Hafting
2007-02-20 20:30                                             ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2007-02-21 12:45                                               ` Helge Hafting
2007-02-21 22:08                                         ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-21 23:30                                           ` Nuno Silva
2007-02-22  0:26                                             ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-21 23:34                                           ` David Lang
2007-02-22  0:28                                             ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-22  1:30                                               ` D. Hazelton
2007-02-22  2:05                                                 ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-22  4:17                                                   ` D. Hazelton
2007-02-22  4:24                                                     ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-22  6:12                                                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-22  9:28                                                     ` Jon K Hellan
2007-02-22 16:45                                                     ` Theodore Tso
2007-02-22 20:30                                                       ` D. Hazelton
2007-02-25  0:59                                                       ` Adrian Bunk
2007-02-22 14:14                                                   ` Alan
2007-02-22 22:42                                                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-23  0:18                                                       ` Alan
2007-02-23  1:12                                                         ` Randy Dunlap
2007-02-23  1:21                                                         ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-22 14:10                                                 ` Alan
2007-02-22 21:36                                                   ` D. Hazelton
2007-02-22 22:28                                                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-25 10:42                                           ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-25 11:33                                             ` David Schwartz
2007-02-25 19:39                                               ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-26  0:47                                                 ` David Schwartz
2007-02-26  1:54                                                   ` D. Hazelton
2007-02-25 11:54                                             ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-25 13:52                                               ` Alan
2007-02-25 14:21                                                 ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-25 19:10                                                   ` Alan
2007-02-26 10:16                                                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-26 14:12                                                       ` Alan
2007-02-25 22:27                                                   ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-26 10:17                                                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-25 20:15                                               ` D. Hazelton
2007-02-25 17:56                                             ` Stephen Clark
2007-02-19 22:47                               ` David Schwartz
2007-02-15 13:09             ` Jan Engelhardt
2007-02-15  8:12           ` Nick Piggin
2007-02-15 10:01           ` Xavier Bestel
2007-02-15 10:51             ` Mohammed Gamal
2007-02-15 11:00               ` Xavier Bestel
2007-02-15 11:05                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15 11:17                   ` Dave Jones
2007-02-15 11:15                 ` Dave Jones
2007-02-15 11:35                   ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-15 13:14                     ` Jan Engelhardt
2007-02-15 14:43           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15 16:22           ` Stuart MacDonald
2007-02-16  0:36             ` Scott Preece
2007-02-16  9:44               ` Xavier Bestel
2007-02-16  9:58               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15  7:24       ` Dave Jones
2007-02-15  9:54       ` Xavier Bestel
2007-02-15 14:14       ` Neil Horman
2007-02-15 14:43       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15 16:25       ` Rik van Riel
2007-02-15 16:53       ` Theodore Tso
2007-02-15 18:20         ` v j
2007-02-15 18:41           ` Josh Boyer
2007-02-16 15:34             ` Lennart Sorensen
2007-02-15 18:58           ` Xavier Bestel
2007-02-15 19:02           ` Miguel Ojeda
2007-02-16  1:12             ` Scott Preece
2007-02-16  1:14               ` David Lang
2007-02-16  5:48                 ` v j
2007-02-16  5:57                   ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-16  6:25                     ` v j
2007-02-16  6:40                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2007-02-16  6:45                       ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-16  9:16                         ` David Schwartz
2007-02-16 10:00                           ` Joshua Simmons
2007-02-16 11:42                             ` David Schwartz
2007-02-16 11:51                               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-16 13:29                               ` Joshua Simmons
2007-02-17  2:42                                 ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17  6:44                                   ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-17  7:26                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2007-02-16 10:35                           ` Richard Knutsson
2007-02-16 17:12                           ` Dave Neuer
2007-02-16 21:26                             ` Scott Preece
2007-02-18 17:08                               ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-17  2:42                             ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17 10:46                               ` Giuseppe Bilotta
2007-02-17 14:19                                 ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17 23:30                                   ` Giuseppe Bilotta
2007-02-17 23:55                                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-18  9:00                                       ` Giuseppe Bilotta
2007-02-19 17:53                                     ` David Schwartz
2007-02-18  5:15                                   ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-17 22:18                               ` Dave Neuer
2007-02-17 23:04                                 ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17 23:04                                 ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-16  9:52                       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2007-02-16 13:44                         ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-16 10:30                       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2007-02-16 10:38                       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-16 14:04                       ` Neil Horman
2007-02-16 14:14                       ` Jesper Juhl
2007-02-17  2:59                         ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17  6:32                           ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-17 13:27                             ` David Schwartz
2007-02-17 19:29                             ` Scott Preece
2007-02-17 21:15                               ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-19 20:31                                 ` Alan
2007-02-19 20:20                                   ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-19 20:48                                     ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2007-02-19 21:50                                       ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-19 22:12                                         ` Michael Dreher
2007-02-17 21:21                               ` David Schwartz
2007-02-18  4:38                                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-16 15:40                       ` Lennart Sorensen
2007-02-16  9:12                   ` Xavier Bestel
2007-02-16  9:44                     ` Jon K Hellan
2007-02-16 11:41                       ` Jan Engelhardt
2007-02-16  6:46               ` Miguel Ojeda
2007-02-15 19:27           ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2007-02-16  1:24             ` Scott Preece
2007-02-15 22:21           ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-16  0:04             ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-16  0:37               ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-16  2:09                 ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-16  2:12                 ` Trent Waddington
2007-02-16  4:00                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-16  5:16                   ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-16  5:57                     ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-15 22:42           ` Gene Heskett
2007-02-16  1:48             ` Scott Preece
2007-02-17  4:03             ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-17  4:19               ` Gene Heskett
     [not found]           ` <7b69d1470702151705h297c3b38g138eb0138b900aea@mail.gmail.com>
2007-02-16  2:00             ` v j
2007-02-16  6:07               ` Chris Friesen
2007-02-16  8:36               ` Martin Mares
2007-02-16 17:00               ` Matthew Frost
2007-02-16 17:52               ` Matthew Frost [this message]
2007-02-20 14:55               ` Helge Hafting
2007-02-16  0:10         ` Greg Trounson
2007-02-16  0:18           ` Lee Revell
2007-02-16  0:37             ` Greg Trounson
2007-02-16  1:58               ` Lee Revell
2007-02-16  0:58         ` Scott Preece
2007-02-18 16:42           ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-15  6:15   ` Neil Brown
2007-02-15  6:51     ` Gene Heskett
2007-02-15  6:23   ` Ben Nizette
2007-02-15  7:40     ` Nick Piggin
2007-02-15 20:56       ` David Schwartz
2007-02-15 21:53       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15 22:41         ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-15 23:20           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-15  7:36   ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-02-15  8:04     ` v j
2007-02-15  8:13       ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-02-15  8:17       ` Richard Knutsson
2007-02-15  8:40         ` v j
2007-02-15 19:36           ` Jörn Engel
2007-02-15  8:24       ` Nick Piggin
2007-02-15 11:52       ` Martin Mares
2007-02-16  4:13       ` Alexandre Oliva
2007-02-16 13:32       ` Lennart Sorensen
2007-02-15 11:54   ` Mws
2007-02-15 12:51     ` Manu Abraham
2007-02-15 14:32       ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2007-02-15 14:54         ` Manu Abraham
2007-02-16  8:19         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2007-02-16  9:25           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2007-02-16 15:33           ` Chris Friesen
2007-02-16 15:58           ` Scott Preece
2007-02-15 15:18   ` Michael K. Edwards
2007-02-15 11:06 Ihar `Philips` Filipau
     [not found] <7OHci-7fx-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <7OHci-7fx-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <7OJnQ-24B-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <7OJQP-2VO-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
2007-02-15 11:53       ` Bodo Eggert
     [not found]   ` <7OI8n-fp-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <7OIi9-tI-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <7OS7S-7tW-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <7OTx3-1tH-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
2007-02-15 23:40           ` Bodo Eggert
     [not found] <fa.GPbYGi2HYDPl2WlRgsq2dPbD6cM@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found] ` <fa.5t0XkAtEpB2nDYFPJKUBce9BKFE@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]   ` <fa.upvZMIS42lj8Tbudh1OdnbDn+Ts@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]     ` <fa.821rWTmf8FgAMnDeO7b6yeUeXYg@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]       ` <fa.+3hIy95KSdtolNz5kNmm6qk4FU8@ifi.uio.no>
2007-02-15 23:31         ` Robert Hancock
2007-02-16 15:29           ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2007-02-16 23:08             ` Robert Hancock
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2007-04-01 12:16 devzero

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