REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[johnrobertbanks]

REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

Dave Lynch takes a reasoned approach to REISER4.

Dave Lynch wrote:
> 
> Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > 
> > If the compelling reason is that it needs a test, I'd say its not ready.
> > 
> 
> Can you please elaborate ? I am not sure I understand what you are
> arguing ?

Jeff Garzik is "saying" that he wants REISER4 to stay out of the main
kernel, for reasons he is not willing to tell you.

>     Despite his substantially less than polite rhetoric, I have read
> Hans's post from months if not years ago.
> 
>     Aside from the pissing contests - which where not entirely one
> sided, 

On the basis of what I have seen here,... Hans Reiser was probably an
angel.

> I actually beleive that Hans made a reasonable case that 
> Reiser4 had gone about as far as it could reasonably go with regard 
> to testing, robustness, ... without the broader base of use that 
> even an experimental filesystem in distribution tree would get.

Of course, this is an entirely reasonable request of Reiser's.
One meet with an array of unreasonable actions, but mainly STALLING 
which has led to REISER4 never becoming part of the main kernel.

It has also lead to many false claims about REISER4. Claims that are
never backed up with solid statistics, but used to keep REISER4 out of
the kernel and tar its reputation.

>     I for one would at least play with it if it were in the distribution
> tree.

I AM SURE THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD GIVE IT A TRY.
 
>     As far as I could tell Hans pretty much everything else that 
> was demanded. Hans eventually caved and provided - albeit with much 
> pissing and moaning, and holy than thou rhetoric.

It was not his pissing and moaning, etc,... these were just excuses to
keep REISER4 from succeeding. The truth is, that any excuse would do.

The real reasons are financial and backed by big money (sometimes, big
egos).

>     The argument that anything that needs testing can't get into the
> distribution tree's is specious. There is alot of poorly tested crap in
> the distribution trees.

Yes, the argument that anything that needs testing can't get in is
indeed stupid.

But stupid things often work. Is REISER4 in the kernel? Is REISER4 a
success?
 
>     But separately, there is the issue of scale. Namesys claims that
> they have no currently know bugs, faults ... - with their base of
> internal and external users.
> 
>     I would fully expect new failures to crop up with any filesystem,
> driver, ... moving  up an order of magnitude in users.
>  
>     Are you going to subject all filesystems and drivers to the same
> high standards you are placing on Reiser4 ? If so then we need to strip
> the distribution tree now.

No. Only those things that threaten big money.
   
>     I am not looking to defend Hans - he is likely to be in jail and no
> longer a factor for a long time. Nor am I looking to make or support
> claims for Reiser4.

Why not defend Hans? He is in jail on what appear to be trumped-up
charges, just like the trumped-up complainants about his filesystem.

>     But I am asking - why we can not get past the bad blood, rhetoric,
> and zealotry -which to my eyes has not been all one sided.

Money talks, BS walks. Reiser4 is a little guy. You should play in my
league.

>     I am NOT looking for a technical explanation of all the relative
> merits and demerits of Reiser4.
> 
>     I do not care for arguments about whether it compresses 0's well, or
> that tail combining is a bad thing. They may have merit, but there is
> not a filesystem that is going to be all things to all people.

Yeap.
 
> Whether Reiser4 is a small niche filesystem or a significant general 
> use one, is a decision that should be reached by its performance 
> in practice, not it rhetoric. Regardless, even as a niche filesystem, 
> I beleive at this point it merits inclusion.

Yeap. REISER4 merits inclusion.

John.
-- 
  
  johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[johnrobertbanks]

YOU GUYS WILL LAUGH ABOUT THIS:

I forgot the all the statistics that might support the sase for REISER4
inclusion.

Well, here it all is:

http://linuxhelp.150m.com/resources/fs-benchmarks.htm and
http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/resources/fs-benchmarks.htm

.-------------------------.
| FILESYSTEM | TIME |DISK |
| TYPE       |(secs)|USAGE|
.-------------------------.
|REISER4 lzo | 1938 | 278 |
|REISER4 gzip| 2295 | 213 |
|REISER4     | 3462 | 692 |
|EXT2        | 4092 | 816 |
|JFS         | 4225 | 806 |
|EXT4        | 4408 | 816 |
|EXT3        | 4421 | 816 |
|XFS         | 4625 | 779 |
|REISER3     | 6178 | 793 |
|FAT32       |12342 | 988 |
|NTFS-3g     |10414 | 772 |
.-------------------------.


Column one measures the time taken to complete the bonnie++ benchmarking
test (run with the parameters bonnie++ -n128:128k:0)

Column two, Disk Usage: measures the amount of disk used to store 655MB
of raw data (which was 3 different copies of the Linux kernel sources).

OR LOOK AT THE FULL RESULTS:

.-------------------------------------------------.
|File         |Disk |Copy |Copy |Tar  |Unzip| Del |
|System       |Usage|655MB|655MB|Gzip |UnTar| 2.5 |
|Type         | (MB)| (1) | (2) |655MB|655MB| Gig |
.-------------------------------------------------.
|REISER4 gzip | 213 | 148 |  68 |  83 |  48 |  70 |
|REISER4 lzo  | 278 | 138 |  56 |  80 |  34 |  84 |
|REISER4 tails| 673 | 148 |  63 |  78 |  33 |  65 |
|REISER4      | 692 | 148 |  55 |  67 |  25 |  56 |
|NTFS3g       | 772 |1333 |1426 | 585 | 767 | 194 |
|NTFS         | 779 | 781 | 173 |   X |   X |   X |
|REISER3      | 793 | 184 |  98 |  85 |  63 |  22 |
|XFS          | 799 | 220 | 173 | 119 |  90 | 106 |
|JFS          | 806 | 228 | 202 |  95 |  97 | 127 |
|EXT4 extents | 806 | 162 |  55 |  69 |  36 |  32 |
|EXT4 default | 816 | 174 |  70 |  74 |  42 |  50 |
|EXT3         | 816 | 182 |  74 |  73 |  43 |  51 |
|EXT2         | 816 | 201 |  82 |  73 |  39 |  67 |
|FAT32        | 988 | 253 | 158 | 118 |  81 |  95 |
.-------------------------------------------------.


Each test was preformed 5 times and the average value recorded.
Disk Usage: The amount of disk used to store the data (which was 3
different copies of the Linux kernel sources).
The raw data (without filesystem meta-data, block alignment wastage,
etc) was 655MB.
Copy 655MB (1): Copy the data over a partition boundary.
Copy 655MB (2): Copy the data within a partition.
Tar Gzip 655MB: Tar and Gzip the data.
Unzip UnTar 655MB: UnGzip and UnTar the data.
Del 2.5 Gig: Delete everything just written (about 2.5 Gig).


To get a feel for the performance increases that can be achieved by
using compression, we look at the total time (in seconds) to run the
test:

bonnie++ -n128:128k:0 (bonnie++ is Version 1.93c)

.-------------------.
| FILESYSTEM | TIME |
.-------------------.
|REISER4 lzo |  1938|
|REISER4 gzip|  2295|
|REISER4     |  3462|
|EXT4        |  4408|
|EXT2        |  4092|
|JFS         |  4225|
|EXT3        |  4421|
|XFS         |  4625|
|REISER3     |  6178|
|FAT32       | 12342|
|NTFS-3g     |>10414|
.-------------------.
-- 
  
  johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Jeff Garzik]

johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
> REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.
> 
> Dave Lynch takes a reasoned approach to REISER4.
> 
> Dave Lynch wrote:
>> Jeff Garzik wrote:
>>> If the compelling reason is that it needs a test, I'd say its not ready.
>>>
>> Can you please elaborate ? I am not sure I understand what you are
>> arguing ?
> 
> Jeff Garzik is "saying" that he wants REISER4 to stay out of the main
> kernel, for reasons he is not willing to tell you.

False.  I have told you the reasons.


>>     I for one would at least play with it if it were in the distribution
>> tree.
> 
> I AM SURE THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD GIVE IT A TRY.

You can download it now.  Nobody is stopping you, or anyone else.


>>     As far as I could tell Hans pretty much everything else that 
>> was demanded. Hans eventually caved and provided - albeit with much 
>> pissing and moaning, and holy than thou rhetoric.
> 
> It was not his pissing and moaning, etc,... these were just excuses to
> keep REISER4 from succeeding. The truth is, that any excuse would do.
> 
> The real reasons are financial and backed by big money (sometimes, big
> egos).

Put down the conspiracy crackpipe.

	Jeff

Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Jeff Garzik]

johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
> YOU GUYS WILL LAUGH ABOUT THIS:

Yes, we are laughing at you.

You keep using bonnie++ after being told it's a poor benchmark.

	Jeff

Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 09 April 2007, johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
>
>I AM SURE THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD GIVE IT A TRY.
>
Many of us have, and recall the pain.  We'll pass thank you.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
It is indeed desirable to be well descended, but the glory belongs to
our ancestors.
		-- Plutarch

Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Pekka Enberg]

On 4/9/07, johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm <johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> YOU GUYS WILL LAUGH ABOUT THIS:

No, I am crying actually. Dear post-masters, can we have this thread
shit-canned, please?

Troll Of The Year (Was: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.)

[Ronni Nielsen]

johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
[snip arguments FUBAR]

<oscar>
And the award as Troll Of The Year goes to: johnrobertbanks.
</oscar>

/ronni

+----------+
|  PLEASE  |
|  DO NOT  |
| FEED THE |
|  TROLLS  |
+----------+
    |  |    
    |  |    
  .\|.||/.. 

Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

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On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 21:16:59 PDT, johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm said:

> >     I am not looking to defend Hans - he is likely to be in jail and no
> > longer a factor for a long time. Nor am I looking to make or support
> > claims for Reiser4.
> 
> Why not defend Hans? He is in jail on what appear to be trumped-up
> charges, just like the trumped-up complainants about his filesystem.

The charges certainly appear to be a lot more serious than "trumped-up".
All the same, I hope that Hans is accorded a fair trial and given a chance
to clear his name.

However, whether he's innocent or guilty, he *is* "out of play" for the
foreseeable future.  And "Where is the maintainer?" *is* a legitimate
question when contemplating including a large chunk of code in the kernel.
Hans is out of play, Namesys may or may not survive the loss of Hans, and
there isn't any signs of support outside Namesys.  So if it merges, who will
get stuck with supporting it?

(I won't bother replying to the rest of your conspiracy theories...)



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Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

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On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 21:39:12 PDT, johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm said:
> YOU GUYS WILL LAUGH ABOUT THIS:
> 
> I forgot the all the statistics that might support the sase for REISER4
> inclusion.
> 
> Well, here it all is:

*plonk* - The sound of a sender address entering a procmail /dev/null filter.

Come back when you're done doing the "nyah-nyeh I can't hear you" routine and
start paying attention when people point out crucial facts - like the fact
that Bonnie benchmarks that rely on compressing large files full of zeros
aren't relevant unless you're in the exceedingly small minority of users who
are interested in compressing large files full of zeros. Heck, I've had
systems where compression was interesting - but I'm willing to admit that 
it's somewhat a corner case.

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Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Sun, Apr 08, 2007 at 09:16:59PM -0700, johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
> REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

Fuck off.  Cheerleading like this only hurts your cause.

Re: Troll Of The Year (Was: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.)

[Phillip Susi]

I second that award.  Three threads in as many days, all idiotic 
trolling.  Can this idiot be banned from the list?  Sheesh!

Ronni Nielsen wrote:
> johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
> [snip arguments FUBAR]
> 
> <oscar>
> And the award as Troll Of The Year goes to: johnrobertbanks.
> </oscar>
> 
> /ronni
> 
> +----------+
> |  PLEASE  |
> |  DO NOT  |
> | FEED THE |
> |  TROLLS  |
> +----------+
>    |  |       |  |     .\|.||/..

Re: Troll Of The Year

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Apr 9 2007 12:55, Ronni Nielsen wrote:
>
> johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:
> [snip arguments FUBAR]
>
> <oscar>
> And the award as Troll Of The Year goes to: johnrobertbanks.
> </oscar>

The year is not even over and you already picked your favorite -
who bribed you? :-)


Jan
-- 

Re: Troll Of The Year

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

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On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 18:41:08 +0200, Jan Engelhardt said:
> On Apr 9 2007 12:55, Ronni Nielsen wrote:
> > <oscar>
> > And the award as Troll Of The Year goes to: johnrobertbanks.
> > </oscar>
> 
> The year is not even over and you already picked your favorite -
> who bribed you? :-)

The vast right-wing anti-Reiser4 conspiracy, of course. :)

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Re: REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.

[Bill Davidsen]

johnrobertbanks@fastmail.fm wrote:

>> I actually beleive that Hans made a reasonable case that 
>> Reiser4 had gone about as far as it could reasonably go with regard 
>> to testing, robustness, ... without the broader base of use that 
>> even an experimental filesystem in distribution tree would get.
> 
> Of course, this is an entirely reasonable request of Reiser's.
> One meet with an array of unreasonable actions, but mainly STALLING 
> which has led to REISER4 never becoming part of the main kernel.
> 
> It has also lead to many false claims about REISER4. Claims that are
> never backed up with solid statistics, but used to keep REISER4 out of
> the kernel and tar its reputation.
> 
Keep that last sentence in mind for four lines...

>>     I for one would at least play with it if it were in the distribution
>> tree.
> 
> I AM SURE THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD GIVE IT A TRY.
>  
"Claims that are never backed up with solid statistics, ..."

>>     As far as I could tell Hans pretty much everything else that 
>> was demanded. Hans eventually caved and provided - albeit with much 
>> pissing and moaning, and holy than thou rhetoric.
> 
> It was not his pissing and moaning, etc,... these were just excuses to
> keep REISER4 from succeeding. The truth is, that any excuse would do.
> 
> The real reasons are financial and backed by big money (sometimes, big
> egos).
> 
Yes all of the people who make millions on the other filesystems! 
Wait... identify who makes a penny more or less with or without Reiser4.

[ snip ]

Until Namesys is stable there's no support team. It's not my impression 
that there's much support otherwise.

-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot