Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

[Pavel Machek]

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Hi!

So... I'm afraid subject is pretty accurate. I assume there's actual
human being called "Sasha Levin" somewhere, but I interact with him
via email, and while some interactions may be by human, some are
written by LLM but not clearly marked as such.

And that's not okay -- because LLMs lie, have no ethics, and no
memory, so there's no point arguing with them. Its just wasting
everyone's time. People are not very thrilled by 'Markus Elfring' on
the lists, as he seems to ignore feedback, but at least that's actual
human, not a damn LLM that interacts as human but then ignores
everything.

Do we need bot rules on the list?

Oh, and if you find my email offensive, feel free to ask LLM to change
the tone.

Best regards,
								Pavel
-- 
I don't work for Nazis and criminals, and neither should you.
Boycott Putin, Trump, and Musk!

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Re: Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

[Shuah]

On 7/8/25 14:39, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> So... I'm afraid subject is pretty accurate. I assume there's actual
> human being called "Sasha Levin" somewhere, but I interact with him
> via email, and while some interactions may be by human, some are
> written by LLM but not clearly marked as such.
> 
> And that's not okay -- because LLMs lie, have no ethics, and no
> memory, so there's no point arguing with them. Its just wasting
> everyone's time. People are not very thrilled by 'Markus Elfring' on
> the lists, as he seems to ignore feedback, but at least that's actual
> human, not a damn LLM that interacts as human but then ignores
> everything.
> 

You aren't talking to an LLM - My understanding is that Sasha is sending
these patches (generated with LLM assist) and discussing them on mailing
lists.

Do you have links/threads you can share to show how feedback is being
ignored?

> Do we need bot rules on the list?

We have to get humans to follow agreed upon rules of conduct before
coming up with bot rules.

> 
> Oh, and if you find my email offensive, feel free to ask LLM to change
> the tone.
> 

I am sorry this isn't how we treat our fellow developers - Please take
steps to make amends.

thanks,
-- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)

Re: Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

[Pavel Machek]

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On Wed 2025-07-09 15:14:38, Shuah wrote:
> On 7/8/25 14:39, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > So... I'm afraid subject is pretty accurate. I assume there's actual
> > human being called "Sasha Levin" somewhere, but I interact with him
> > via email, and while some interactions may be by human, some are
> > written by LLM but not clearly marked as such.
> > 
> > And that's not okay -- because LLMs lie, have no ethics, and no
> > memory, so there's no point arguing with them. Its just wasting
> > everyone's time. People are not very thrilled by 'Markus Elfring' on
> > the lists, as he seems to ignore feedback, but at least that's actual
> > human, not a damn LLM that interacts as human but then ignores
> > everything.
> > 
> 
> You aren't talking to an LLM - My understanding is that Sasha is sending
> these patches (generated with LLM assist) and discussing them on mailing
> lists.

Please discuss this with Sasha. My understanding is that he is not
checking the output of the LLM before sending it out, leading to crazy
halucinations being sent from his email address, leading to situations
like this:

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 14:32:02 -0500
# Wow!

# Sasha I think an impersonator has gotten into your account, and
# is just making nonsense up.

# At first glance this reads like an impassioned plea to backport this
# change, from someone who has actually dealt with it.

# Unfortunately reading the justification in detail is an exercise
# in reading falsehoods.

> Do you have links/threads you can share to show how feedback is being
> ignored?

And you can see how he dealt with the feedback: Not by fixing the LLM,
not by checking it more, simply by "oh well, I'll stop Cc ing you".

Of course, other problem is that LLM output is not marked as such, and
even bigger problem is that decisions are taken on basis of
halucinating model. Patches are applied, Signed-off-by: Sasha Levin,
without Sasha Levin checking them.

Here are other examples where feedback was ignored:

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:10:20 +0200
Subject: Re: [PATCH AUTOSEL 4.19 08/38] media: pci: ttpci: av7110: fix
possible buffer overflow caused by bad DMA value in debiirq()
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:11:23 +0200
Subject: Re: [PATCH AUTOSEL 4.19 34/38] btrfs: file: reserve qgroup
space after the hole punch range is locked
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:03:18 +0200
Subject: Re: [PATCH AUTOSEL 4.19 06/21] usb: dwc3: gadget: Ignore EP
queue requests during bus reset

> > Do we need bot rules on the list?
> 
> We have to get humans to follow agreed upon rules of conduct before
> coming up with bot rules.

We did not agree on rules with dealing with bots, and those bots are
spreading harmful halucinations; that's what I'm trying to solve.

BR,
							Pavel
-- 
I don't work for Nazis and criminals, and neither should you.
Boycott Putin, Trump, and Musk!

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Re: Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

[Jonathan Corbet]

Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> writes:

> Hi!
>
> So... I'm afraid subject is pretty accurate. I assume there's actual
> human being called "Sasha Levin" somewhere, but I interact with him
> via email, and while some interactions may be by human, some are
> written by LLM but not clearly marked as such.
>
> And that's not okay -- because LLMs lie, have no ethics, and no
> memory, so there's no point arguing with them. Its just wasting
> everyone's time. People are not very thrilled by 'Markus Elfring' on
> the lists, as he seems to ignore feedback, but at least that's actual
> human, not a damn LLM that interacts as human but then ignores
> everything.

So ... we probably need to have discussions about the role LLMs will
play in kernel development, but this is not the way to do it.  You are
talking about a fellow human, and should treat him with respect.
Please, let's not have this kind of attack here.

jon

Re: Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

[Pavel Machek]

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Hi!

On Wed 2025-07-09 15:14:38, Shuah wrote:
> On 7/8/25 14:39, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > So... I'm afraid subject is pretty accurate. I assume there's actual
> > human being called "Sasha Levin" somewhere, but I interact with him
> > via email, and while some interactions may be by human, some are
> > written by LLM but not clearly marked as such.
> > 
> > And that's not okay -- because LLMs lie, have no ethics, and no
> > memory, so there's no point arguing with them. Its just wasting
> > everyone's time. People are not very thrilled by 'Markus Elfring' on
> > the lists, as he seems to ignore feedback, but at least that's actual
> > human, not a damn LLM that interacts as human but then ignores
> > everything.
> > 
> 
> You aren't talking to an LLM - My understanding is that Sasha is sending
> these patches (generated with LLM assist) and discussing them on mailing
> lists.

At this point, I'd like to know (a) what steps (if any) were taken to
prevent LLM hallucinations from reaching the lists, and (b) what steps
(if any) were taken to make sure patches Signed-off by developer were
actually reviewed by said developer, and not applied simply due to
said hallucinations.

Confusion caused LLM hallucinations can be seen for example in thread
"[PATCH AUTOSEL 6.15 6/8] PM: Restrict swap use to later in the
suspend sequence", it includes as great stuff as fake http links.

I have seen solution proposed for (a), but have not seen any solution
proposed for (b) and that's actually more serious problem.

One solution would be to use separate email address "Autosel bot <>"
for both From and Signed-off, so there's no confusion between content
generated by developer and content generated by LLM.

Best regards,
								Pavel
-- 
I don't work for Nazis and criminals, and neither should you.
Boycott Putin, Trump, and Musk!

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Re: Sasha Levin is halucinating, non human entity, has no ethics and no memory

[Shuah]

On 7/27/25 03:08, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> On Wed 2025-07-09 15:14:38, Shuah wrote:
>> On 7/8/25 14:39, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> So... I'm afraid subject is pretty accurate. I assume there's actual
>>> human being called "Sasha Levin" somewhere, but I interact with him
>>> via email, and while some interactions may be by human, some are
>>> written by LLM but not clearly marked as such.
>>>
>>> And that's not okay -- because LLMs lie, have no ethics, and no
>>> memory, so there's no point arguing with them. Its just wasting
>>> everyone's time. People are not very thrilled by 'Markus Elfring' on
>>> the lists, as he seems to ignore feedback, but at least that's actual
>>> human, not a damn LLM that interacts as human but then ignores
>>> everything.
>>>
>>
>> You aren't talking to an LLM - My understanding is that Sasha is sending
>> these patches (generated with LLM assist) and discussing them on mailing
>> lists.
> 

> At this point, I'd like to know (a) what steps (if any) were taken to
> prevent LLM hallucinations from reaching the lists, and (b) what steps
> (if any) were taken to make sure patches Signed-off by developer were
> actually reviewed by said developer, and not applied simply due to
> said hallucinations.

> 
> Confusion caused LLM hallucinations can be seen for example in thread
> "[PATCH AUTOSEL 6.15 6/8] PM: Restrict swap use to later in the
> suspend sequence", it includes as great stuff as fake http links.
> 
> I have seen solution proposed for (a), but have not seen any solution
> proposed for (b) and that's actually more serious problem.
> 
> One solution would be to use separate email address "Autosel bot <>"
> for both From and Signed-off, so there's no confusion between content
> generated by developer and content generated by LLM.

I am going to repeat what I said in my response to the conversation
about the code of conduct violation.

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/f145b475-5b61-4565-8406-98894e706077@linuxfoundation.org/

The use of LLMs in the development process and rules about such use
including how to clearly state if LLMs are used in the process is a
timely and important topic. It can be confusing when a developer
doesn't clearly state the LLM use.

However, as you acknowledged here that you couldn't tell if these
patches originated from the developer or not. In which case, there
are several constructive ways to move forward to clear up the confusion.

1. Send response to the patch and hold a constructive discussion about
    the confusion.
      
2. Start a separate thread to talk to the developer privately or publicly
    in a respectful and constructive way.

3. Start a Tech board conversation with the TAB.

You didn't take any of the above constructive approaches. Instead your
responses included personal attacks which are visible to community and
others to see.

The Code of Conduct Committee has determined these are personal attacks.
These are a clear violation of the agreed upon code of conduct which can
be easily remedied with an apology.

- https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html
- https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct-interpretation.html#code-of-conduct-interpretation

Assume you are speaking to a fellow developer and ask them to give details
on the nature of LLM use in the patch. It will result in a constructive
conversation for these important topics at hand.

thanks,
-- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)