Love and Hate on LKML

Love and Hate on LKML

[Love Hate]

Dear Developers,

At the outset I would like to thank you for your great work - IMHO Linux is the
best OS in the Solar System.

Unfortunately, your relationships with certain people are not the best. I do not
like how some people are treated on LKML. I will publish further episodes
of "Love and Hate on LKML" until you change the climate around Linux
development.

http://loveandhateonlkml.wordpress.com/

If your speech is found in some of the episodes, this means that it has
been considered very offensive.

Kind regards

Re: Love and Hate on LKML

[Chris Snook]

Love Hate wrote:
> Dear Developers,
> 
> At the outset I would like to thank you for your great work - IMHO Linux is the
> best OS in the Solar System.
> 
> Unfortunately, your relationships with certain people are not the best. I do not
> like how some people are treated on LKML. I will publish further episodes
> of "Love and Hate on LKML" until you change the climate around Linux
> development.
> 
> http://loveandhateonlkml.wordpress.com/
> 
> If your speech is found in some of the episodes, this means that it has
> been considered very offensive.
> 
> Kind regards

This is a classic example of a problem-seeking idea.  Quite a lot of people post 
to this list with some idea that they think will make a large impact on the 
community at large, certainly far larger than a lowly patch in a subsystem it 
would take weeks to understand.  Typically the proximal cause is sleep 
deprivation, a condition that afflicts many kernel developers and enthusiasts, 
with the result being a decreased inhibition against ideation of reference and 
ideation of grandeur.  This causes the believe that you have "discovered" 
something which is really quite well understood and is being addressed with the 
priority it is due, and that as a result of your discovery you are uniquely 
qualified to guide the community to its resolution.

I don't mean to throw stones here.  If you dig through the archives, you can 
find examples of some grandiose ideas I've posted that never resulted in a 
single line of code, or turned out to be impractical generalizations of more 
specific optimizations that have already been implemented.  Invariably these 
were posted while sleep-deprived, and I've been quite embarrassed by them the 
next morning, and relieved that for the most part they were ignored.

If not for the importance of addressing this issue, I would leave this post 
ignored as well.  I have no qualms with the goal of improving civility on LKML, 
but it's not something that's going to be solved by anonymously shaming people 
on a blog.  The goal of your blog appears to be to chastise kernel developers, 
which is at best a needless escalation of hostilities.

If you want to improve the quality of discourse here, then get involved and make 
good posts.  Email makes filtering very easy, so if someone is a troll or is 
posting on technical matters they don't understand, we can simply ignore them. 
If you want to rebuke people for particular conduct, do it on the list, so the 
people who read and post to this list can engage in a discussion of what is 
acceptable here.  The only people who will read a blog such as yours are 
malcontents looking for reasons to dismiss those who have criticized or ignored 
them.

My suggestion to you, and to everyone else who wants to improve the quality of 
this community, is to become a part of it.  Learn a subsystem.  Post patches 
that fix problems people care about.  Listen to criticism and respond to it 
constructively.  This will make your posts relevant to the list, and give you 
far more influence than a blog about a technical mailing list that has no 
technical objective.  Convincing other people to be nice is not a technical 
problem that can be resolved by one person analyzing it and implementing a 
solution in a late-night hacking/blogging session.  Quite the contrary, 
late-night hacking/blogging sessions tend to be detrimental to this goal.

-- Chris

Re: Love and Hate on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 06:06:35PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote:
> Love Hate wrote:
> >Dear Developers,
> >
> >At the outset I would like to thank you for your great work - IMHO Linux 
> >is the
> >best OS in the Solar System.
> >
> >Unfortunately, your relationships with certain people are not the best. I 
> >do not
> >like how some people are treated on LKML. I will publish further episodes
> >of "Love and Hate on LKML" until you change the climate around Linux
> >development.
> >
> >http://loveandhateonlkml.wordpress.com/
> >
> >If your speech is found in some of the episodes, this means that it has
> >been considered very offensive.
> >
> >Kind regards
> 
> This is a classic example of a problem-seeking idea.  Quite a lot of people 
> post to this list with some idea that they think will make a large impact 
> on the community at large, certainly far larger than a lowly patch in a 
> subsystem it would take weeks to understand.  Typically the proximal cause 
> is sleep deprivation, a condition that afflicts many kernel developers and 
> enthusiasts, with the result being a decreased inhibition against ideation 
> of reference and ideation of grandeur.  This causes the believe that you 
> have "discovered" something which is really quite well understood and is 
> being addressed with the priority it is due, and that as a result of your 
> discovery you are uniquely qualified to guide the community to its 
> resolution.
> 
> I don't mean to throw stones here.  If you dig through the archives, you 
> can find examples of some grandiose ideas I've posted that never resulted 
> in a single line of code, or turned out to be impractical generalizations 
> of more specific optimizations that have already been implemented.  
> Invariably these were posted while sleep-deprived, and I've been quite 
> embarrassed by them the next morning, and relieved that for the most part 
> they were ignored.
> 
> If not for the importance of addressing this issue, I would leave this post 
> ignored as well.  I have no qualms with the goal of improving civility on 
> LKML, but it's not something that's going to be solved by anonymously 
> shaming people on a blog.  The goal of your blog appears to be to chastise 
> kernel developers, which is at best a needless escalation of hostilities.
> 
> If you want to improve the quality of discourse here, then get involved and 
> make good posts.  Email makes filtering very easy, so if someone is a troll 
> or is posting on technical matters they don't understand, we can simply 
> ignore them. If you want to rebuke people for particular conduct, do it on 
> the list, so the people who read and post to this list can engage in a 
> discussion of what is acceptable here.  The only people who will read a 
> blog such as yours are malcontents looking for reasons to dismiss those who 
> have criticized or ignored them.
> 
> My suggestion to you, and to everyone else who wants to improve the quality 
> of this community, is to become a part of it.  Learn a subsystem.  Post 
> patches that fix problems people care about.  Listen to criticism and 
> respond to it constructively.  This will make your posts relevant to the 
> list, and give you far more influence than a blog about a technical mailing 
> list that has no technical objective.  Convincing other people to be nice 
> is not a technical problem that can be resolved by one person analyzing it 
> and implementing a solution in a late-night hacking/blogging session.  
> Quite the contrary, late-night hacking/blogging sessions tend to be 
> detrimental to this goal.

Chris,

your comments make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I think that
you wasted your time trying to educate this one. Judging by
his/her pathetic blog made up from carefully selected excerpts
from the list, and the fact that he/she has no name to post
with, I think he/she's just a kid waiting for his/her parents
to discover he/she used dad's computer without authorization.

Otherwise, I 100% agree with what you said.

Cheers,
Willy

Re: Love and Hate on LKML

[Scott Lovenberg]

Chris Snook wrote:
> Love Hate wrote:
>> Dear Developers,
>>
>> At the outset I would like to thank you for your great work - IMHO 
>> Linux is the
>> best OS in the Solar System.
>>
>> Unfortunately, your relationships with certain people are not the 
>> best. I do not
>> like how some people are treated on LKML. I will publish further episodes
>> of "Love and Hate on LKML" until you change the climate around Linux
>> development.
>>
>> http://loveandhateonlkml.wordpress.com/
>>
>> If your speech is found in some of the episodes, this means that it has
>> been considered very offensive.
>>
>> Kind regards
> 
> This is a classic example of a problem-seeking idea.  Quite a lot of 
> people post to this list with some idea that they think will make a 
> large impact on the community at large, certainly far larger than a 
> lowly patch in a subsystem it would take weeks to understand.  Typically 
> the proximal cause is sleep deprivation, a condition that afflicts many 
> kernel developers and enthusiasts, with the result being a decreased 
> inhibition against ideation of reference and ideation of grandeur.  This 
> causes the believe that you have "discovered" something which is really 
> quite well understood and is being addressed with the priority it is 
> due, and that as a result of your discovery you are uniquely qualified 
> to guide the community to its resolution.
> 
> I don't mean to throw stones here.  If you dig through the archives, you 
> can find examples of some grandiose ideas I've posted that never 
> resulted in a single line of code, or turned out to be impractical 
> generalizations of more specific optimizations that have already been 
> implemented.  Invariably these were posted while sleep-deprived, and 
> I've been quite embarrassed by them the next morning, and relieved that 
> for the most part they were ignored.
> 
> If not for the importance of addressing this issue, I would leave this 
> post ignored as well.  I have no qualms with the goal of improving 
> civility on LKML, but it's not something that's going to be solved by 
> anonymously shaming people on a blog.  The goal of your blog appears to 
> be to chastise kernel developers, which is at best a needless escalation 
> of hostilities.
> 
> If you want to improve the quality of discourse here, then get involved 
> and make good posts.  Email makes filtering very easy, so if someone is 
> a troll or is posting on technical matters they don't understand, we can 
> simply ignore them. If you want to rebuke people for particular conduct, 
> do it on the list, so the people who read and post to this list can 
> engage in a discussion of what is acceptable here.  The only people who 
> will read a blog such as yours are malcontents looking for reasons to 
> dismiss those who have criticized or ignored them.
> 
> My suggestion to you, and to everyone else who wants to improve the 
> quality of this community, is to become a part of it.  Learn a 
> subsystem.  Post patches that fix problems people care about.  Listen to 
> criticism and respond to it constructively.  This will make your posts 
> relevant to the list, and give you far more influence than a blog about 
> a technical mailing list that has no technical objective.  Convincing 
> other people to be nice is not a technical problem that can be resolved 
> by one person analyzing it and implementing a solution in a late-night 
> hacking/blogging session.  Quite the contrary, late-night 
> hacking/blogging sessions tend to be detrimental to this goal.
> 
> -- Chris

  I'm just a software development major in college who follows kernel 
development (it's kind of like following a sport that's played 24/7, and I can 
participate in!) fairly closely.  But, for what it's worth, Chris, I really 
appreciated your comment.  It's really refreshing to actually see a positive 
outlook with a call to action these days (especially where thousands of 
introverts are concerned).  Thank you for a humble, well thought out reply to a 
slightly hostile post.

I've always wished the list would have a slashdot style moderation system, 
because great comments like this probably get skipped over too much.

OK, I'm actually punchy (like I'm the only one who cuts a few hours off of the 
nights sleep to get up early and write some code... which, after a good nights 
sleep, I'm going to imprint my forehead in my desk and replace with five lines 
of good code that actually work correctly... but I digress) and I'm sure that I 
didn't word any of this as I would have liked to, but I really do appreciate the 
time you took to write up this reply.

I really think I'm going to print it out and keep it around for the next time I 
want to light up a troll.  Especially when I'm shooting off my mouth on topics I 
know nothing about.  I'll admit I really appreciated this post because it was a 
double-bladed sword to me.