IRC?

IRC?

[lmage11]

I know that Linux kernel development discussion has pretty much always taken place on mailing lists, but would you guys consider developing a presence on an IRC network, probably Freenode? There already exists a ##kernel channel which could be used, and other channels could be created for specific subsystems. I think it'd be an interesting new medium to try out for discussion between developers, and it would also make the developers more accessible to users who find the mailing lists inconvenient or intimidating. The only subsystem I know of that maintains a reliable presence on IRC is the DRM subsystem (i.e. Dave Airlie, Eric Anholt, etc), and it works great.

Not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering what you guys think. :)

Ari

Re: IRC?

[Russell Miller]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:19 PM,  <lmage11@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
> I know that Linux kernel development discussion has pretty much always taken place on mailing lists, but would you guys consider developing a presence on an IRC network, probably Freenode? There already exists a ##kernel channel which could be used, and other channels could be created for specific subsystems. I think it'd be an interesting new medium to try out for discussion between developers, and it would also make the developers more accessible to users who find the mailing lists inconvenient or intimidating. The only subsystem I know of that maintains a reliable presence on IRC is the DRM subsystem (i.e. Dave Airlie, Eric Anholt, etc), and it works great.
>

The obvious danger with this is the possibility that major decisions
will be made on IRC within a few minutes, shutting everyone else out
of the process.

Mailing lists may be slow, but they are thorough.

--Russell

Re: IRC?

[Jesper Juhl]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:
>
You might want to add your name to that address when sending mail...

> I know that Linux kernel development discussion has pretty much always 
> taken place on mailing lists, but would you guys consider developing a 
> presence on an IRC network, probably Freenode? There already exists a 
> ##kernel channel which could be used, and other channels could be 
> created for specific subsystems. I think it'd be an interesting new 
> medium to try out for discussion between developers, and it would also 
> make the developers more accessible to users who find the mailing lists 
> inconvenient or intimidating. The only subsystem I know of that 
> maintains a reliable presence on IRC is the DRM subsystem (i.e. Dave 
> Airlie, Eric Anholt, etc), and it works great.
> 
> Not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering what you guys 
> think. :)
> 
Everyone and their grandmother knows how to use email - :)
Significantly fewer people know how to use IRC - :(

The mailing list is archived in various places - :)
IRC chats are rarely archived - :(

Archiving all LKML mail locally is easy - :)
Archiving all of a IRC channel continuously locally is not so easy - :(

Email archives are easily searchable by subject, sender etc - :)
IRC archives are not so easily searchable by subject etc - :(

Email is nicely asynchronous, letting people read and respond at their leisure - :)
IRC chats are not as asynchronous - :(

Patches are easily distributed via email - :)
Patches are not very easily distributed via IRC - :(

IRC channels can be a nice suplement when a few people need to discuss 
something in semi-real-time related to some LKML thread or just some 
kernel related topic, but it's no replacement for the mailing list.


-- 
Jesper Juhl <jj@chaosbits.net>
Don't top-post  http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
Plain text mails only, please      http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

Re: IRC?

[lmage11]

---- Jesper Juhl <jj@chaosbits.net> wrote: 
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:
> >
> You might want to add your name to that address when sending mail...
> 
> > I know that Linux kernel development discussion has pretty much always 
> > taken place on mailing lists, but would you guys consider developing a 
> > presence on an IRC network, probably Freenode? There already exists a 
> > ##kernel channel which could be used, and other channels could be 
> > created for specific subsystems. I think it'd be an interesting new 
> > medium to try out for discussion between developers, and it would also 
> > make the developers more accessible to users who find the mailing lists 
> > inconvenient or intimidating. The only subsystem I know of that 
> > maintains a reliable presence on IRC is the DRM subsystem (i.e. Dave 
> > Airlie, Eric Anholt, etc), and it works great.
> > 
> > Not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering what you guys 
> > think. :)
> > 
> Everyone and their grandmother knows how to use email - :)
> Significantly fewer people know how to use IRC - :(
> 
> The mailing list is archived in various places - :)
> IRC chats are rarely archived - :(
> 
> Archiving all LKML mail locally is easy - :)
> Archiving all of a IRC channel continuously locally is not so easy - :(
> 
> Email archives are easily searchable by subject, sender etc - :)
> IRC archives are not so easily searchable by subject etc - :(
> 
> Email is nicely asynchronous, letting people read and respond at their leisure - :)
> IRC chats are not as asynchronous - :(
> 
> Patches are easily distributed via email - :)
> Patches are not very easily distributed via IRC - :(
> 
> IRC channels can be a nice suplement when a few people need to discuss 
> something in semi-real-time related to some LKML thread or just some 
> kernel related topic, but it's no replacement for the mailing list.

Yeah, I wasn't proposing it as a replacement... Just as an alternative means of
communication for those that prefer it. For me personally, it would also make
kernel developers feel more "accessible", which would be nice.

Ari

Re: IRC?

[david]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:

> ---- Jesper Juhl <jj@chaosbits.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:
>>>
>> You might want to add your name to that address when sending mail...
>>
>>> I know that Linux kernel development discussion has pretty much always
>>> taken place on mailing lists, but would you guys consider developing a
>>> presence on an IRC network, probably Freenode? There already exists a
>>> ##kernel channel which could be used, and other channels could be
>>> created for specific subsystems. I think it'd be an interesting new
>>> medium to try out for discussion between developers, and it would also
>>> make the developers more accessible to users who find the mailing lists
>>> inconvenient or intimidating. The only subsystem I know of that
>>> maintains a reliable presence on IRC is the DRM subsystem (i.e. Dave
>>> Airlie, Eric Anholt, etc), and it works great.
>>>
>>> Not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering what you guys
>>> think. :)
>>>
>> Everyone and their grandmother knows how to use email - :)
>> Significantly fewer people know how to use IRC - :(
>>
>> The mailing list is archived in various places - :)
>> IRC chats are rarely archived - :(
>>
>> Archiving all LKML mail locally is easy - :)
>> Archiving all of a IRC channel continuously locally is not so easy - :(
>>
>> Email archives are easily searchable by subject, sender etc - :)
>> IRC archives are not so easily searchable by subject etc - :(
>>
>> Email is nicely asynchronous, letting people read and respond at their leisure - :)
>> IRC chats are not as asynchronous - :(
>>
>> Patches are easily distributed via email - :)
>> Patches are not very easily distributed via IRC - :(
>>
>> IRC channels can be a nice suplement when a few people need to discuss
>> something in semi-real-time related to some LKML thread or just some
>> kernel related topic, but it's no replacement for the mailing list.
>
> Yeah, I wasn't proposing it as a replacement... Just as an alternative means of
> communication for those that prefer it. For me personally, it would also make
> kernel developers feel more "accessible", which would be nice.

IRC interrupts people. would you rather the kernel developers feel 
accessible, or get work done?

the kernel developers are very accessable, but they are not on-call to 
respond instantly to your requests.

that being said, some of the developers do use IRC for various things, but 
there is no 'official' place to always find them and no requirement for 
them to be available to be contacted at specific times.

David Lang

Re: IRC?

[Kyle Moffett]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Jesper Juhl <jj@chaosbits.net> wrote:
> IRC channels can be a nice suplement when a few people need to discuss
> something in semi-real-time related to some LKML thread or just some
> kernel related topic, but it's no replacement for the mailing list.

Especially considering that LKML can reach up to 60 lines per second
for sustained periods of time during certain discussions, even
excluding patch content.  With subject filters and threading, that's
perfectly OK.  With a single big honkin' IRC channel it is beyond
useless.

Cheers,
Kyle Moffett

Re: IRC?

[lmage11]

---- Kyle Moffett <kyle@moffetthome.net> wrote: 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Jesper Juhl <jj@chaosbits.net> wrote:
> > IRC channels can be a nice suplement when a few people need to discuss
> > something in semi-real-time related to some LKML thread or just some
> > kernel related topic, but it's no replacement for the mailing list.
> 
> Especially considering that LKML can reach up to 60 lines per second
> for sustained periods of time during certain discussions, even
> excluding patch content.  With subject filters and threading, that's
> perfectly OK.  With a single big honkin' IRC channel it is beyond
> useless.

Aside from the fact that I'm not proposing a complete replacement, there
wouldn't have to be "a single big honkin' IRC channel" - as I said, there
could be a big general one for people who don't know exactly where to look
yet, and a bunch of smaller ones for each subsystem where the actual
discussion happens.

Ari

Re: IRC?

[David Miller]

From: <lmage11@twcny.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:19:18 -0500

> but would you guys consider developing a presence on an IRC network,
> probably Freenode?

You assume there isn't already an IRC network where a large
chunk of us hangout.

Re: IRC?

[lmage11]

---- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: 
> From: <lmage11@twcny.rr.com>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:19:18 -0500
> 
> > but would you guys consider developing a presence on an IRC network,
> > probably Freenode?
> 
> You assume there isn't already an IRC network where a large
> chunk of us hangout.

Yes, suppose I do. Is that assumption not justified? :)

(note: private networks don't count :p).

Ari

Re: IRC?

[David Miller]

From: <lmage11@twcny.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:11:53 -0500

> 
> ---- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: 
> > From: <lmage11@twcny.rr.com>
> > Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:19:18 -0500
> > 
> > > but would you guys consider developing a presence on an IRC network,
> > > probably Freenode?
> > 
> > You assume there isn't already an IRC network where a large
> > chunk of us hangout.
> 
> Yes, suppose I do. Is that assumption not justified? :)
> 
> (note: private networks don't count :p).

Don't be surprised if the really important developers would
prefer a more cosy place to chat with each other.  And that's
essentially what we already have.

Re: IRC?

[lmage11]

---- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: 
> From: <lmage11@twcny.rr.com>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:11:53 -0500
> > ---- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: 
> > > You assume there isn't already an IRC network where a large
> > > chunk of us hangout.
> > 
> > Yes, suppose I do. Is that assumption not justified? :)
> > 
> > (note: private networks don't count :p).
> 
> Don't be surprised if the really important developers would
> prefer a more cosy place to chat with each other.  And that's
> essentially what we already have.

BUT THAT MEANS YOU'RE LIKE, EXCLUDING THE COMMUNITY,
MAAAN!!!!!`11!!one

Just kidding, I understand. :)

But seriously, would all of you be actively against creating a different
place where developers and users can interact, separate from this
cozy developer place? If pretty much everyone is against it, I
completely understand, but I just thought I'd put the possibility
out there.

Ari

Re: IRC?

[Kyle McMartin]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 09:46:51PM -0500, lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:
> 
> ---- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: 
> > From: <lmage11@twcny.rr.com>
> > Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:11:53 -0500
> > > ---- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: 
> > > > You assume there isn't already an IRC network where a large
> > > > chunk of us hangout.
> > > 
> > > Yes, suppose I do. Is that assumption not justified? :)
> > > 
> > > (note: private networks don't count :p).
> > 
> > Don't be surprised if the really important developers would
> > prefer a more cosy place to chat with each other.  And that's
> > essentially what we already have.
> 
> BUT THAT MEANS YOU'RE LIKE, EXCLUDING THE COMMUNITY,
> MAAAN!!!!!`11!!one
> 
> Just kidding, I understand. :)
> 
> But seriously, would all of you be actively against creating a different
> place where developers and users can interact, separate from this
> cozy developer place? If pretty much everyone is against it, I
> completely understand, but I just thought I'd put the possibility
> out there.
> 

I believe the kernelnewbies folks already have a well-publicized irc
location... There are typically at least a few developers there.

Re: IRC?

[Christian Jaeger]

Kyle McMartin wrote:
> I believe the kernelnewbies folks already have a well-publicized irc
> location... There are typically at least a few developers there.

I quite like the #kernelnewbies since it's the only place I know where I
can ask userspace questions :~D

I'm mostly a userspace developer, my life writing kernel code is
restricted to a couple of tiny drivers and one-line tweaks. And merging
of thirdparty patches. So I don't have much need for asking questions
about kernelspace questions, but frequently I need to know how I
interface to something in the kernel but don't know how (example: how do
I get at the blocksize and size of a block device? (I know the answer
now.) Or what the name of the "sandboxing" feature of Linux was
(seccomp) and how it seemed to have changed interfaces. Getting clarity
with questions like which tool displays which kind of cpu usage ("what
is iowait?"). Getting help when I see strange behaviour like with I/O
almost locking up the machine. Which are the right git trees to get the
kernel. "Is there a way to change the pipe kernel buffer size from user
space
?" "What is a/the 'TSC'?" How to crosscompile (make ARCH=i386). etc. etc.)

I'm almost always feeling guilty misusing that channel for such
questions, but it's the best place I know where I can get answers to
such questions... :) Thanks for anyone there bearing with me.

Christian.

Re: IRC?

[Stefan Richter]

lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:
> But seriously, would all of you be actively against creating a different
> place where developers and users can interact, separate from this
> cozy developer place?

IRC between developer A and user B would be fine for user B but bad for
user C, D, E, F, G, H.  It may also be a waste of developer's A time.
Same as with personal mail.

But as David and Kyle said, you can reach many developers via IRC
anyway.  They hang out on channels with topics more focused than just
"linux kernel" because the discussions which go over IRC typically have
a narrower focus than that.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-==--- ==-- ====-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: IRC?

[Rik van Riel]

lmage11@twcny.rr.com wrote:
> The only subsystem I know of that maintains a reliable presence on IRC 
 > is the DRM subsystem

There are a few kernel channels on OFTC.

#kernelnewbies  for all kinds of kernel questions
#linuxfs        for Linux filesystem developers
#mm             Linux memory management

-- 
All rights reversed.