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From: George Dunlap <george.dunlap@eu.citrix.com>
To: Frans Pop <elendil@planet.nl>
Cc: Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>,
	"tglx@linutronix.de" <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	"davem@davemloft.net" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	"jeremy@goop.org" <jeremy@goop.org>,
	"mingo@elte.hu" <mingo@elte.hu>,
	Dan Magenheimer <dan.magenheimer@oracle.com>,
	"avi@redhat.com" <avi@redhat.com>,
	"xen-devel@lists.xensource.com" <xen-devel@lists.xensource.com>,
	"x86@kernel.org" <x86@kernel.org>,
	"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Keir Fraser <Keir.Fraser@eu.citrix.com>,
	"torvalds@linux-foundation.org" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	"gregkh@suse.de" <gregkh@suse.de>,
	"kurt.hackel@oracle.com" <kurt.hackel@oracle.com>,
	Ian Pratt <Ian.Pratt@eu.citrix.com>,
	"xen-users@lists.xensource.com" <xen-users@lists.xensource.com>,
	ksrinivasan <ksrinivasan@novell.com>,
	"EAnderson@novell.com" <EAnderson@novell.com>,
	"wimcoekaerts@wimmekes.net" <wimcoekaerts@wimmekes.net>,
	Stephen Spector <stephen.spector@citrix.com>,
	"jens.axboe@oracle.com" <jens.axboe@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Xen is a feature
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:21:08 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4A27CA44.3060604@eu.citrix.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200906040129.07852.elendil@planet.nl>

Frans Pop wrote:
> ! The kernel policy always was and still is to accept only those
> ! features which have a technical benefit **to the code base**.
>   
Yes, I think I understood him better after I responded to his e-mail 
(unfortunately).  When people say things like "dom0 adds all these hooks 
but doesn't add anything to Linux", they mean something like this 
(please correct me anyone, if I'm wrong).

Kernel developers want Linux, as a project, to have cool things in it.  
They want it to be cool.  Adding new features, new capabilities, new 
technical code, makes it cooler.  Sometimes adding new features to make 
it cooler has some cost in terms of adding things to other parts of the 
code, possibly making it a little less clean or a little more 
convoluted.  But if the coolness is cool enough, it's worth the cost.

The feeling is that adding a bunch of these dom0 hooks (especially of 
the type, "if(xen) { foo; }"), are a cost to Linux.  They make the code 
ugly.  They do allow a new kind of coolness, a (linux-dom0 + Xen) 
coolness.  But none of the coolness actually happens in Linux; it all 
happens in Xen.  So coolness may happen, and world happiness might 
increase marginally, but Linux itself doesn't seem any cooler, it just 
has the cost of all these ugly hooks.  Thus the "Linux is Xen's sex 
slave" analogy. :-)

If (hypothetically) we merged Xen into Linux, then (people are 
suggesting) the coolness of Xen would actually contribute to the 
coolness of Linux ("add technical benefit to the code base").  People 
would feel like working on the interface between linux-xen and the rest 
of linux would be making their own piece of software, Linux, work 
better, rather than feeling like they have to work with some foreign 
project that doesn't make their code any cooler.

Is that a pretty accurate representation of the "adding features which 
have a technical benefit to the code base" argument?

 -George

  reply	other threads:[~2009-06-04 13:21 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 108+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2009-05-12 23:25 [GIT PULL] Xen APIC hooks (with io_apic_ops) Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 01/17] xen/dom0: handle acpi lapic parsing in Xen dom0 Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 02/17] x86: add io_apic_ops to allow interception Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-25  3:54   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-05-27  7:17     ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 03/17] xen: implement io_apic_ops Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 04/17] xen: create dummy ioapic mapping Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 05/17] xen: implement pirq type event channels Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 06/17] x86/io_apic: add get_nr_irqs_gsi() Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 07/17] xen/apic: identity map gsi->irqs Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 08/17] xen: direct irq registration to pirq event channels Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 09/17] xen: bind pirq to vector and event channel Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 10/17] xen: pre-initialize legacy irqs early Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 11/17] xen: don't setup acpi interrupt unless there is one Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 12/17] xen: use acpi_get_override_irq() to get triggering for legacy irqs Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 13/17] xen: initialize irq 0 too Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 14/17] xen: dynamically allocate irq & event structures Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 15/17] xen: set pirq name to something useful Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 16/17] xen: fix legacy irq setup, make ioapic-less machines work Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-12 23:25 ` [PATCH 17/17] xen: disable MSI Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-19 12:35 ` [GIT PULL] Xen APIC hooks (with io_apic_ops) Ingo Molnar
2009-05-20 17:57   ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-25  4:10     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-05-26 12:46       ` [Xen-devel] " George Dunlap
2009-05-26 18:26         ` Avi Kivity
2009-05-26 19:18           ` Dan Magenheimer
2009-05-26 19:41             ` Avi Kivity
2009-05-28  0:13             ` Ingo Molnar
2009-05-28  0:49               ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-28  3:47               ` Dan Magenheimer
2009-05-28 14:26               ` George Dunlap
2009-05-29  0:45               ` Xen is a feature Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-29  1:27                 ` Greg KH
2009-05-29  4:05                 ` David Miller
2009-05-29  6:37                   ` Jaswinder Singh Rajput
2009-05-29  6:51                     ` David Miller
2009-05-29 12:01                   ` George Dunlap
2009-05-29 14:14                     ` Pasi Kärkkäinen
2009-05-29 21:29                       ` David Miller
     [not found]                     ` <87tz33ep1b.fsf@basil.nowhere.org>
2009-05-29 21:31                       ` [Xen-devel] " Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-05-29 23:09                       ` Nakajima, Jun
2009-05-29 23:26                         ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-06-02 15:23                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2009-06-02 16:41                       ` George Dunlap
2009-06-02 17:28                         ` Chris Friesen
2009-06-02 17:46                         ` Linus Torvalds
2009-06-02 18:02                           ` Linus Torvalds
2009-06-02 18:59                             ` Avi Kivity
2009-06-07  9:13                               ` Ingo Molnar
2009-06-07 10:01                                 ` Avi Kivity
2009-06-07 10:35                                   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-06-07 12:46                                     ` Avi Kivity
2009-06-07 13:02                                       ` Jaswinder Singh Rajput
2009-06-04 14:02                           ` [Xen-users] " Thomas Goirand
2009-06-02 18:59                         ` Thomas Gleixner
2009-06-03 19:49                       ` Bill Davidsen
2009-06-03 20:20                         ` Thomas Gleixner
2009-06-03 22:37                           ` Bill Davidsen
2009-06-03 23:29                             ` Frans Pop
2009-06-04 13:21                               ` George Dunlap [this message]
2009-06-04 15:10                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-06-04 15:31                                 ` Chris Friesen
2009-06-05  4:14                               ` Bill Davidsen
2009-06-05  4:55                                 ` Chris Friesen
2009-06-02 22:40                     ` Steven Rostedt
2009-06-02 23:28                       ` Merge Xen (the hypervisor) into Linux Ingo Molnar
2009-06-03  0:00                         ` Dan Magenheimer
2009-06-03  0:32                           ` Thomas Gleixner
2009-06-03  2:43                           ` Theodore Tso
2009-06-03  3:42                             ` Steven Rostedt
2009-06-03  4:49                               ` Dan Magenheimer
2009-06-03  4:58                                 ` David Miller
2009-06-03  5:07                                   ` Steven Rostedt
2009-06-03  5:22                                 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-06-03 12:03                                   ` George Dunlap
2009-06-03 19:05                                     ` Theodore Tso
     [not found]                                       ` <4A27CF94.1050903@gmx.de>
2009-06-04 14:03                                         ` [Xen-users] " Steven Rostedt
2009-06-03  7:28                             ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-06-03  8:47                               ` Alan Cox
2009-06-03  9:09                                 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-06-03  9:20                                   ` Keir Fraser
2009-06-03 11:15                                   ` Theodore Tso
2009-06-03 11:39                                     ` Keir Fraser
2009-06-03 11:41                                     ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-06-03  1:00                         ` Joel Becker
2009-06-03  2:00                           ` david
2009-06-03  7:59                           ` Alan Cox
2009-06-03  8:07                         ` Christian Tramnitz
2009-06-04 18:53                           ` Linus Torvalds
2009-06-05  0:09                             ` Samuel Thibault
2009-06-05  0:18                               ` David Miller
2009-06-05  0:54                               ` Linus Torvalds
2009-06-03 17:31                         ` Chris Friesen
2009-06-03 17:36                           ` Alan Cox
2009-06-02 23:41                       ` Xen is a feature Thomas Gleixner
2009-05-30  2:19                 ` [Xen-devel] " Andy Burns
2009-05-26 21:19         ` [Xen-devel] Re: [GIT PULL] Xen APIC hooks (with io_apic_ops) Gerd Hoffmann
2009-05-27 10:14           ` George Dunlap
2009-05-24 20:10   ` Avi Kivity
2009-05-25  3:51     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-05-25  4:55       ` Avi Kivity
2009-05-25  5:06         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-05-25  5:12           ` Avi Kivity
2009-05-25  5:19             ` Ingo Molnar
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2009-05-29 11:48 Xen is a feature Tomasz Chmielewski
2009-05-29 13:08 Sander Eikelenboom
2009-05-31 21:11 devzero
2009-06-02 22:44 Sander Eikelenboom

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