a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[hp fk]

Kademlia protocol is widely used by many p2p applications, if kernel
support the Kademlia protocol and its p2p network infrastracture. it
will be easier to bring us into a new stage of network with much more
freedom and equality.

1.systems could get public identity on network much more easier, and
need not depend on DNS system, which usual controled by buraucracy
agents.
2. system presence on network is easier to resolved in a dynamic ip
environment that many ISPs use to effectively use IP address. and
communication could be much easier.
3.many p2p applications could be releaved from building the p2p
network infrastracture repeatedly and focus on application features.
4. some restrictions imposed by buraucracy censorship will be breaked
and give us much more communication freedom
5. all linux systems could be equal citizens of a unified greate linux
p2p network and promote the development of p2p network.

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Valeo de Vries]

On 2 August 2010 13:24, hp fk <fkhp101@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kademlia protocol is widely used by many p2p applications, if kernel
> support the Kademlia protocol and its p2p network infrastracture. it
> will be easier to bring us into a new stage of network with much more
> freedom and equality.
>
> 1.systems could get public identity on network much more easier, and
> need not depend on DNS system, which usual controled by buraucracy
> agents.
> 2. system presence on network is easier to resolved in a dynamic ip
> environment that many ISPs use to effectively use IP address. and
> communication could be much easier.
> 3.many p2p applications could be releaved from building the p2p
> network infrastracture repeatedly and focus on application features.
> 4. some restrictions imposed by buraucracy censorship will be breaked
> and give us much more communication freedom
> 5. all linux systems could be equal citizens of a unified greate linux
> p2p network and promote the development of p2p network.

And why exactly can't this be done in userspace? I assume that since
you mention IP that (perhaps incorrectly) this protocol uses TCP/UDP
on the lower layers...

Valeo

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Valeo de Vries]

On 2 August 2010 16:33, hp fk <fkhp101@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/8/2 Valeo de Vries <valeo@valeo.co.cc>:
>
>> And why exactly can't this be done in userspace? I assume that since
>> you mention IP that (perhaps incorrectly) this protocol uses TCP/UDP
>> on the lower layers...
>
> using userspace p2p network service and  library might be another way
> to consolidate the protocol.
> in kernel  or in userspace service/library, each will have its own
> advantage and disadvantage.  like qemu-kvm and qemu userspace.

Sorry, but no. You're suggesting adding a protocol to the kernel that
fits better in userspace without actually coming up with any reasons
why having it in-kernel would be better. Not to mention that adding
yet another protocol to the kernel means more vectors for possible
exploits.

Valeo

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

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On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:24:38 +0800, hp fk said:
> Kademlia protocol is widely used by many p2p applications, if kernel
> support the Kademlia protocol and its p2p network infrastracture. it
> will be easier to bring us into a new stage of network with much more
> freedom and equality

1) You failed to explain what kernel support, if any, would be needed for this
protocol.  What does Kademlia do that the current kernel can't handle already?
(Hint - if it runs on a Windows system without patching the Windows kernel, it
almost certainly doesn't need extensive patches for Linux either).

2) You forgot to cc: netdev@vger.kernel.org, which is where all the networking
people hang out.


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RE: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[hp fk]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: hp fk <fkhp101@gmail.com>
Date: 2010/8/2
Subject: Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel
To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu


popular file sharing p2p applications like emule and bittorrent,
innovative application like Osiris each has its own Kademlia protocol
implementation in userspace presently. the imaginable kernel support
needed is to reduce many repeated (different or same) Kademlia
protocol implementations running in userspace to a consolidated one at
kernel level, so that the Kademlia protocol as a p2p network
infrastructure is provided in kernel and any p2p application could
just use the interface provided by kernel, thus a great p2p network is
easily created, and  applications on that network infrastructure could
grow rapidly.

2010/8/2  <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu>:
> 1) You failed to explain what kernel support, if any, would be needed for this
> protocol.

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Damjan Jovanovic]

If all you want to do is share a Kademlia implementation among
applications, it should be in a user-space shared library. This
library could also be ported to other operating systems, unlike a
Linux-only kernel module that portable applications wouldn't want to
use anyway.

I think Kademlia only belongs in the kernel if something in the kernel
itself needs it. And even then it shouldn't be exported to user space.

Damjan Jovanovic

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 4:29 PM, hp fk <fkhp101@gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: hp fk <fkhp101@gmail.com>
> Date: 2010/8/2
> Subject: Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel
> To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu
>
>
> popular file sharing p2p applications like emule and bittorrent,
> innovative application like Osiris each has its own Kademlia protocol
> implementation in userspace presently. the imaginable kernel support
> needed is to reduce many repeated (different or same) Kademlia
> protocol implementations running in userspace to a consolidated one at
> kernel level, so that the Kademlia protocol as a p2p network
> infrastructure is provided in kernel and any p2p application could
> just use the interface provided by kernel, thus a great p2p network is
> easily created, and  applications on that network infrastructure could
> grow rapidly.
>
> 2010/8/2  <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu>:
>> 1) You failed to explain what kernel support, if any, would be needed for this
>> protocol.
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Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[hp fk]

2010/8/2  <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu>:
> On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:10:30 +0800, you said:
> Two problems with that:
>
> 1) There doesn't seem to be any push to get multiple HTTP-speaking
> programs (firefox, wget, yum, etc) to a 'consolidated' one - letting the
> kernel keep track of connections to userspace seems to work well
> there.  You need to explain what *exactly* the kernel will be doing
> to support this (in other words, have at least the start of an API
> and what the semantics are..)

 HTTP if more of an access protocol,the logical network is woven in
the web page controled by html, the network needed is formed and take
part in by tcp/ip protocol which usually lies in kernel.

Kademlia itself has the responsibility to weave the p2p network and
bring a node into the p2p network before access can be done.

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

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On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:02:01 +0800, you said:

>  HTTP if more of an access protocol,the logical network is woven in
> the web page controled by html, the network needed is formed and take
> part in by tcp/ip protocol which usually lies in kernel.
> 
> Kademlia itself has the responsibility to weave the p2p network and
> bring a node into the p2p network before access can be done.

You're still failing to explain why the kernel needs to do this
rather than some -lkademlia in userspace.


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Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[H. Peter Anvin]

On 08/02/2010 08:09 AM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:02:01 +0800, you said:
> 
>>  HTTP if more of an access protocol,the logical network is woven in
>> the web page controled by html, the network needed is formed and take
>> part in by tcp/ip protocol which usually lies in kernel.
>>
>> Kademlia itself has the responsibility to weave the p2p network and
>> bring a node into the p2p network before access can be done.
> 
> You're still failing to explain why the kernel needs to do this
> rather than some -lkademlia in userspace.
> 

Specifically, the reasons a network protocol goes in the kernel is
either because it needs a multiplex that isn't possible in userspace
(UDP, for example, needs a port number multiplex), or because acceptable
performance isn't possible in userspace (this mostly applies to NFS.)

	-hpa

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Mon, 2010-08-02 at 20:24 +0800, hp fk wrote:

-ENO_REALNAME

> Kademlia protocol is widely used by many p2p applications, if kernel

-ENO_URL_WITH_INTRODUCTION_ON_KADEMLIA
-ENO_PATCH

[ Untechnical marketing and sales blurb deleted ]

	Bernd
-- 
Bernd Petrovitsch                  Email : bernd@petrovitsch.priv.at
                     LUGA : http://www.luga.at

Re: a Great Idea - include Kademlia networking protocol in kernel

[Valeo de Vries]

On 3 August 2010 11:44, Bernd Petrovitsch <bernd@petrovitsch.priv.at> wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-08-02 at 20:24 +0800, hp fk wrote:
>
> -ENO_REALNAME
>
>> Kademlia protocol is widely used by many p2p applications, if kernel
>
> -ENO_URL_WITH_INTRODUCTION_ON_KADEMLIA
> -ENO_PATCH

Candidate for LWN's quote of the week, surely!? ;)

Valeo