Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Greg Banks]

Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> 

  I agree with the main thrust of your argument, but

> It would be hard to know how to order your candidates to present
> them to the user in a natural sequence -- and the problem of deciding
> which variable to present for mutation by the user next, if you choose
> that UI, equates to this.

  There is a natural order for presenting variables to the
user, and that's the menu tree order.  At least in the Linux
kernel CML2 corpus the menus are roughly organised from most
general to most specific options, so options appearing earlier
in the tree are likely to appear in more constraints and you
probably want to ask the user to mutate them later.

Greg.
-- 
If it's a choice between being a paranoid, hyper-suspicious global
village idiot, or a gullible, mega-trusting sheep, I don't look
good in mint sauce.                      - jd, slashdot, 11Feb2000.

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Eric S. Raymond]

Greg Banks <gnb@alphalink.com.au>:
>   There is a natural order for presenting variables to the
> user, and that's the menu tree order.  At least in the Linux
> kernel CML2 corpus the menus are roughly organised from most
> general to most specific options, so options appearing earlier
> in the tree are likely to appear in more constraints and you
> probably want to ask the user to mutate them later.

OK.  Agreed, but it doesn't solve the general problem.  Generating
models is still hard.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that you're
putting a money test on getting a gun.  It's racism in its worst form.
        -- Roy Innis, president of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), 1988

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Keith Owens]

On Thu, 3 May 2001 03:47:55 -0400, 
"Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
>OK, so you want CML2's "make oldconfig" to do something more graceful than
>simply say "Foo! You violated this constraint! Go fix it!"

(i) Start with a valid config.  CML2 will not allow any changes that
    violate the constraints.  Not a problem.

(ii) Start with a invalid config.  CML2 makes best effort at correcting
     it.

     (a) Interactive mode (menuconfig, xconfig) - tell the user to fix
         it.

     (b) Batch mode (oldconfig).  Attempt to automatically correct the
         config using these rules.

        (1) Earlier constraints take priority over later constraints.
            That is, scan the constraints from top to bottom as listed
            by the rules.

        (2) For valid constraints, freeze all variables in the
            constraint, both guard and dependent.

        (3) For failing constraints, freeze the guard variables, change
            the dependent variable to satisfy the constraint then
            freeze it.

        (4) If a dependent variable is already frozen then give up,
            human intervention is required.  This includes any
            variables that are changed as side effects of updating a
            dependent variable.

        (5) Backtracking is required between (4) and (3) if the
            dependent variables in (3) can take more than one value.
            For example with RTC!=n then set RTC=y, freeze it and try
            to complete the remaining constraints.  If you cannot find
            a consistent set of values, unfreeze all variables from the
            later constraints, unfreeze RTC, set RTC=m, freeze and go
            forward again.

>Worst-case you wind up having to filter 3^1976 or
>
>61886985104344314262549831301497223184442226760005632366142367454062\
>53798069007245829607511803014461980205195265648765807533359692422405\
>26663343478651948197640717559171334587246360190820597462466618699616\
>83769466038480440588536443139761873343981834731232898868121056624288\
>25175698197266097855144317654507849536499564272166336474891989097438\
>35187399533347347604275259693285565328638904436467418552386274533685\
>91327533953419273284845915678229675363862482902467758788105098892672\
>89040426968478652648633090613090819909922898996729964073665423236084\
>87819939319685920863027286269975666073166040062426792612975756185462\
>81534154977458915332736966975415596732075433912438120798023875787687\
>12139869442963906795755406077094024235937984546041146032870399467676\
>50750114775766120549985366981610796100249952621482595580440335923663\
>89536648507944663518188694691546583650254496327051865064380044199561\
>11898186436375597975714968012719658007155903874756222061921

bc is a wonderful tool :)

Worst case with my algorithm is the product of the number of possible
values that each dependent variable can take over all constraint rules.
In the vast majority of cases, there is only one possible value, either
because the constraint is already valid or because the dependency
requires a single value.  So the number of possible cases to test is
governed by how many rules use != or < or > instead of ==.

Is this perfect?  No, you can construct pathological constraints that
involve a lot of backtracking and even then there may be no valid set
of values.

Do we care?  No, we do not write rules like that.

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Eric S. Raymond]

Keith Owens <kaos@ocs.com.au>:
> On Thu, 3 May 2001 03:47:55 -0400, 
> "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> >OK, so you want CML2's "make oldconfig" to do something more graceful than
> >simply say "Foo! You violated this constraint! Go fix it!"
> 
> (i) Start with a valid config.  CML2 will not allow any changes that
>     violate the constraints.  Not a problem.

Right.  This is 99.9% of cases.  All this heat and argument is over a
very, very unusual situation.  Much more unusual than most of the 
people arguing about it realize.

(For those of you haven't caught up with this, *missing symbols do not
make a configuration invalid*.  Only inconsistencies between explicitly
set symbols can do that.)
 
> (ii) Start with a invalid config.  CML2 makes best effort at correcting
>      it.
> 
>      (a) Interactive mode (menuconfig, xconfig) - tell the user to fix
>          it.

The problem with this is that in order to support it I have to throw away the
configurator's central invariant -- which is that every change that does not
lead to a valid configuration is rejected (with an explanation).  

I'm not going to do that.  It's not worth it to handle a case this marginal.

>      (b) Batch mode (oldconfig).  Attempt to automatically correct the
>          config using these rules.
> 
>         (1) Earlier constraints take priority over later constraints.
>             That is, scan the constraints from top to bottom as listed
>             by the rules.
> 
>         (2) For valid constraints, freeze all variables in the
>             constraint, both guard and dependent.
> 
>         (3) For failing constraints, freeze the guard variables, change
>             the dependent variable to satisfy the constraint then
>             freeze it.

There's the problem.  You don't know which variable(s) are dependent.
That's not a well-defined notion here.  Consider the case that stimulated
this whole argument:

	(X86 and SMP) implies RTC!=n

You think you know that RTC is 'dependent', but this is an illusion created
by the presence of the asymmetrical `implies'.  Go look at the hierarchy.
You'll see what I mean.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation,
that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence?  Where is the
difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our
own direction, and having them under the management of Congress?  If
our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands
can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in
our own hands?
        -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Alan Cox]

> (For those of you haven't caught up with this, *missing symbols do not
> make a configuration invalid*.  Only inconsistencies between explicitly
> set symbols can do that.)

If they make it invalid the tools should fix it.

> > (ii) Start with a invalid config.  CML2 makes best effort at correcting
> >      it.
> > 
> >      (a) Interactive mode (menuconfig, xconfig) - tell the user to fix
> >          it.
> 
> The problem with this is that in order to support it I have to throw away the
> configurator's central invariant -- which is that every change that does not
> lead to a valid configuration is rejected (with an explanation).  

If you get a conflict, turn the second feature in config file order off/on
as appropriate then tell the user you did it. Then continue to verify. If
you accidentally turn off the whole scsi layer well the user has been told it
happens and its still no worse than having no tool. While if it fixes it up
happily the user is pleased and it saved a lot of time. Also remember many
kernel builders are not gurus.

CML2 already poses a huge barrier to such people because its different to the
stuff in the book and the stuff their friend showed them. Thats a barrier
worth climbing because its a better tool for such people in the longer run.
But please don't add spikes on the top of said wall

> I'm not going to do that.  It's not worth it to handle a case this marginal.

In which case CML2 appears to be inferior to our current tools. It depends on
python2 which nobody ships by default yet. It doesn't handle this case.
Why should we be using it ;)

> There's the problem.  You don't know which variable(s) are dependent.
> That's not a well-defined notion here.  Consider the case that stimulated
> this whole argument:

Actually I think the problem is different. You are trying to solve a 
mathematical graph theory problem elegantly. Make oldconfig solves a real
world problem by a mixture of brutality and heuristics. 

Alan
PS: your .sig length checker still seems broken

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Eric S. Raymond]

Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
> If you get a conflict, turn the second feature in config file order off/on
> as appropriate then tell the user you did it.  Then continue to verify.

> Actually I think the problem is different. You are trying to solve a 
> mathematical graph theory problem elegantly. Make oldconfig solves a real
> world problem by a mixture of brutality and heuristics. 

You want brutality and heuristics?  I'll give you brutality and heuristics...

I could just treat a config as a sequence of assignments, as though
the user had typed them in sequence, rejecting any later ones that
throw constraint violations.  That way we can avoid ever accepting or
having to deal with an invalid configuration.  The invariant that every
symbol assignment either augments a valid configuration or is rejected
would be conserved.

This isn't "recovery", it's more like high-handedly throwing away
assignments that don't happen to fit stuff bound earlier in the tree
traverse that defines symbol print order.  And it's going to give odd,
"brutal" results in some cases because guard symbols are ordered
before their dependents.

But if all you want is brutality and heuristics, it might do.


I guess you didn't know that I trained as a mathematical logician.  On the
one hand, that predisposes me to try to find "elegant" solutions where 
you might regard brutality and heuristics as more appropriate.

On the other hand, without that kind of background you don't get
people building constraint-satisfaction systems to give you
provably-correct results, either.  So perhaps, on the whole,
mine is a more positive predisposition than not ;-).
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty,
will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest.
        -- From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775.

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Alan Cox]

> You want brutality and heuristics?  I'll give you brutality and heuristics...
> I could just treat a config as a sequence of assignments, as though
> the user had typed them in sequence, rejecting any later ones that
> throw constraint violations.  That way we can avoid ever accepting or
> having to deal with an invalid configuration.  The invariant that every
> symbol assignment either augments a valid configuration or is rejected
> would be conserved.

Which is pretty much what make oldconfig does. Go from the top asking users
about new symbols and just killing stuff that would break the rules.

> This isn't "recovery", it's more like high-handedly throwing away
> assignments that don't happen to fit stuff bound earlier in the tree
> traverse that defines symbol print order.  And it's going to give odd,
> "brutal" results in some cases because guard symbols are ordered
> before their dependents.

Thats the mathematician speaking again

> But if all you want is brutality and heuristics, it might do.

Its worked well enough for the past five years. On odd occasions you do find
you've inadventantly unconfigured something but normally the conflict vanishes
with almost no ripples.

I'm quite happy for oldconfig to continue to do what it did before. I'm quite
happy to accept its mathematically imperfect, because it hasnt gone far wrong
yet

Alan

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Wayne.Brown]

Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

>Its worked well enough for the past five years. On odd occasions you do find
>you've inadventantly unconfigured something but normally the conflict vanishes
>with almost no ripples.

>I'm quite happy for oldconfig to continue to do what it did before. I'm quite
>happy to accept its mathematically imperfect, because it hasnt gone far wrong
>yet

Here's a real-life example of how well it works.  I tend to bounce back and
forth between Linus' -pre patches and your -ac patches.  For instance, when
2.4.4-ac4 came out, I was running 2.4.5-pre1.  Here's what I did:

zcat patch-2.4.5-pre1.gz | patch -p1 -s -E -R
zcat patch-2.4.4-ac4.gz | patch -p1 -s -E
mv .config ..
make mrproper
mv ../.config .
make oldconfig
make dep && make bzlilo modules modules_install

I apply nearly every patch set that comes along from you or Linus, and this is
the way I usually do it.  Every once in a while, I run through all the options
in menuconfig just to make certain nothing has gotten hosed up.  Only once can I
remember needing to change an option that had been set incorrectly by oldconfig.

Wayne

Re: [kbuild-devel] Why recovering from broken configs is too hard

[Keith Owens]

On Thu, 3 May 2001 12:59:21 -0400, 
"Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
>Keith Owens <kaos@ocs.com.au>:
>>         (3) For failing constraints, freeze the guard variables, change
>>             the dependent variable to satisfy the constraint then
>>             freeze it.
>
>There's the problem.  You don't know which variable(s) are dependent.
>That's not a well-defined notion here.  Consider the case that stimulated
>this whole argument:
>
>	(X86 and SMP) implies RTC!=n
>
>You think you know that RTC is 'dependent', but this is an illusion created
>by the presence of the asymmetrical `implies'.  Go look at the hierarchy.
>You'll see what I mean.

On the contrary, I know what the hierarchy says and I also know that
that implies is normally bidirectional.  In the case of batch mode,
where you cannot ask the user to solve the violation, I suggest that
CML2 treat implies as unidirectional, but only for this case.

IOW, the order of the constraints (not the hierarchy) and the ordering
of the guard and dependent variables in each constraint are hints by
the rules writer to CML2 about which variables are more important.
Earlier constraints are more important than later ones.  Guard
variables are more important that dependent variables.

So when CML2 reaches the end of a batch config run and has a violation
on 'require X86 and SMP implies RTC!=n', X86 and SMP will not be
considered for changing, RTC will be.  Using hints from the order of
the constraints reduces the solution space from 3^1957 to 2.