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From: "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hps@tanstaafl.de>
To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Linux stifles innovation...
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:57:03 +0000 (UTC)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <96o9pv$j3j$1@forge.intermeta.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010216170349.01efc030@mail.etinc.com>, <20010217151407.E26627@alcove.wittsend.com>

mhw@wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

>	No...  Close Source and proprietary protocols are then anthema to
>BOTH progress and innovation.  When innovation is done in a close arena, it

These are two different things! Proprietary protocols are the death to
variety and customer choice! 

I personally are perfectly happy with closed source and open
protocols. Show me a compareable product to BEA WebLogic, which is
free. But if I consider this closed source program to suck, I can
still take my application and deploy it on a free EJB container with a
free servlet engine. I don't lose with closed source here. And the
closed source vendor is forced to compete with open source
products. Which in the end gives me a better product. I'm happy with
upgrades and release cycles where I get one new release and some bug
fixes in six months. Not a new release all two days. And I'm happy
that I can call a support line or open a bug ticket with a
vendor. Yes, there are vendors which care about bug tickets and fix
bugs in their products.

The division "Open Source - all bugs are fixed in shortest time"
vs. "Close Source - no bugs are fixed at all and only updates are
sold" is IMHO plain wrong. And e.g. in Germany, where there is
something called "Gewaehrleistungsfrist" which is six months after
selling a product, vendors are held by the law (!) to fix bugs. And
again, companies like M$ try to circument this with "EULAs" which,
according to some lawyers do not uphold in court. But according to my
knowledge, noone in Germany has ever tried to sue M$ to force them to
comply to this law.

Microsoft tries to circumvent this competition with proprietary
protocols and non-interchangeablity. Why do they bash Java? Why do
they push something like C#? Because they don't want _NO_
competition. They "embrace and extend". And the patent the extensions.

Many other companies take the challenge of open source and open
protocols and try to compete with open source products. And they do it
really well! I have to see Oracle to lose a significant percentage of
their Enterprise RDBMS to free software (And please don't quote me the
"Nasa switches to MySQL" article. This is fine but then again for them, 
Oracle wasn't a good choice in the first place. ;-) )

Innovation today happens with protocols. With ideas. With interoperability.  
On the Internet. Open Source and Closed Source are competitors and
open source and free software _forces_ company to make better software
if they want to compete.

Microsoft tries to avoid the competition and wants to lock their
customers into the Windows - IIS - ASP - .NET - C# cycle with
proprietary protocols, languages and platforms, because then they know
that for these customers, changing into _any_ other environment (be it
the LAMP, FreeBSD-PostgreSQL-Python, Zope, Oracle, Cold Fusion or
anything _else_) is so hard, that the customers won't do. 

Setting up a network of "Microsoft certified professionals" which
repeat the ideology from Redmond on and on, really helps here. It is
almost like the roman-catholic church. ;-)

Microsoft don't really care about "Open Source", "Closed Source", GNU,
Linux, BSD and all the stuff. They only care about "Competition" and
"Market share". Anything that endangers their market share is a
threat.

>	Without Open Source and it's predecessors, we would not have the
>Internet as we know it today.  Companies back then (and I worked for

No. Without Cisco and Sun, we wouldn't have a working internet at
all. And they do closed products with open protocols. And that's IMHO
the point.

>some of them) could not envision a network as we know it now.  Several
>of them saw no future what so ever in the "Internet".  One of them even
>went so far as to proclaim that Novell was the be all and end all of
>networking and nothing would ever amount to anything on this petty worthless
>Internet thing.

>	History has proved them wrong and history has proved that Open
>Source is the provider of choices not the limiter of choices.

No. Open protocols and Open ideas are. Open source is just a part of
the whole picture. Every company that tries to lock their customers
into their products, are a threat to the Internet and to users and
customers. That's where Novell from your example failed. They failed
because of IPX and their inability to adjust to the emerging IP
environment.

Novell failed because they tried to push a small vertical, expensive
product (file and print serving) when a competitor started to give the
"peer-to-peer" and server network away with their baseline product
("Windows"). Not because they made a close source product.

"We give away for free, what you sell". Microsoft got Novell with
this. They got Netscape with this. They will try to get the next
competitor with this, too. They can't get Linux with this and that's
why they're afraid. And that's where such a Linux-bashing article
comes from.

	Regards
		Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

  reply	other threads:[~2001-02-18 10:58 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 170+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2001-02-15 17:49 Linux stifles innovation fsnchzjr
2001-02-15 17:55 ` Stephen Frost
2001-02-15 18:04 ` Mark Haney
2001-02-15 19:49   ` David D.W. Downey
2001-02-15 20:20     ` Alan Olsen
2001-02-15 20:42       ` dave
2001-02-15 21:17         ` Richard B. Johnson
2001-02-15 20:43       ` [OTP] " David D.W. Downey
2001-02-15 22:31       ` Bill Wendling
2001-02-15 22:37         ` William T Wilson
2001-02-16 12:45       ` Rik van Riel
2001-02-16 15:10         ` James Sutherland
2001-02-16 16:02           ` Mark Haney
2001-02-16 16:26             ` David Woodhouse
2001-02-16 16:30               ` Mark Haney
2001-02-16 19:23           ` David D.W. Downey
2001-02-16 20:18             ` James Sutherland
2001-02-17  0:03               ` Carlos Fernandez Sanz
2001-02-17  0:35                 ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  0:41                   ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-17  1:52                     ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  2:20                     ` XOR [ was: Linux stifles innovation... ] David Relson
2001-02-17  2:32                       ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  8:16                       ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-17 13:16                       ` David Relson
2001-02-17 18:12                       ` brian
2001-02-18  2:01                         ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  9:08                     ` Linux stifles innovation James Sutherland
2001-02-17 12:45                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17  9:05                 ` James Sutherland
2001-02-17  0:04     ` LA Walsh
2001-02-16  9:26 ` Helge Hafting
2001-02-16  9:36   ` James Sutherland
2001-02-16 12:44     ` Helge Hafting
2001-02-16 17:40     ` Joseph Pingenot
2001-02-16 14:25 ` Andrew Scott
2001-02-16 19:48   ` Jesse Pollard
2001-02-16 22:27   ` Dennis
2001-02-16 22:20     ` Alan Cox
2001-02-17 12:37       ` [LONG RANT] " Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 13:37         ` Russell King
2001-02-17 19:15           ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 22:03             ` Felix von Leitner
2001-02-18 11:54               ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 12:26                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 13:43                 ` Russell King
2001-02-18  9:27             ` Russell King
2001-02-17 19:20           ` Jacob Luna Lundberg
2001-02-18  1:06             ` Peter Samuelson
2001-02-18  4:15             ` Ben Ford
2001-02-17 18:48         ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-19  9:24         ` Helge Hafting
2001-02-19 10:53         ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-19 11:07           ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 11:28             ` Nicholas Knight
2001-02-19 11:36               ` David Lang
2001-02-19 12:53                 ` Nicholas Knight
2001-02-19 11:47               ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 12:57                 ` Nicholas Knight
2001-02-19 12:00             ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-19 12:15             ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-19 16:04               ` Paul Jakma
2001-02-19 16:07               ` Alan Cox
2001-02-19 14:15             ` Jes Sorensen
2001-02-20 23:39             ` Brian May
2001-02-19 11:59           ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-19 13:11             ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-19 14:07               ` David Howells
2001-02-19 14:55                 ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 15:53                   ` Mikulas Patocka
2001-02-19 16:26                     ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 19:11                       ` The lack of specification (was Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation... ) Mikulas Patocka
2001-02-19 20:02                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2001-02-19 20:17                         ` Albert D. Cahalan
2001-02-19 21:18                           ` Mikulas Patocka
2001-02-19 21:34                           ` The lack of specification Russell King
2001-02-19 21:47                             ` Eli Carter
2001-02-19 15:58                   ` [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation Richard B. Johnson
2001-02-19 16:14                     ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 16:26                     ` Alan Cox
2001-02-19 21:57                     ` Keith Owens
2001-02-19 19:27             ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-17 16:54       ` Francois Romieu
2001-02-16 22:31     ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-16 22:51     ` David D.W. Downey
2001-02-16 22:59     ` Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.] John Cavan
2001-02-16 23:07     ` Linux stifles innovation Mike A. Harris
2001-02-16 23:45       ` Matt D. Robinson
2001-02-16 23:46         ` Mike A. Harris
2001-02-17  0:15           ` Matt D. Robinson
2001-02-17  0:34             ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-17  0:54               ` Matt D. Robinson
2001-02-17  1:58                 ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-17 12:41       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 17:51         ` Robert Read
     [not found]         ` <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217145415.31128A-100000@orion.hq.dalalu.fr>
2001-02-17 18:40           ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-16 23:33     ` Hristo Doichev
2001-02-17  0:01     ` Alan Olsen
2001-02-17  0:10     ` rjd
2001-02-17  1:34     ` Neal Dias
2001-02-17  2:05     ` Augustin Vidovic
2001-02-17 12:46       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 13:13         ` Roeland Th. Jansen
2001-02-21 23:00       ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-21 23:17         ` Augustin Vidovic
2001-02-22  1:08           ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-22  0:09       ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-22  0:21         ` Alan Cox
2001-02-23 12:14         ` Wakko Warner
2001-02-23 12:31           ` David Weinehall
2001-02-27  8:48             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2001-02-17  7:20     ` Mike Pontillo
2001-02-17 16:11       ` [OT]Re: " Gregory Maxwell
2001-02-17  7:39     ` Vesselin Atanasov
2001-02-17 19:08     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 19:08       ` Mohammad A. Haque
2001-02-17 20:47       ` Alan Cox
2001-02-24 21:11       ` Dennis
2001-02-24 21:06         ` Alan Cox
2001-02-17 19:11     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 19:36       ` Francois Romieu
2001-02-17 20:48       ` Alan Cox
2001-02-17 19:24     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 19:38     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 20:01       ` Michael Bacarella
2001-02-17 20:11         ` James A. Sutherland
2001-02-17 19:56     ` Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.] Dennis
2001-02-17 20:28       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 11:25         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 15:32           ` John Cavan
2001-02-18  0:13       ` Gerhard Mack
2001-02-17 20:05     ` Linux stifles innovation Dennis
2001-02-17 20:05       ` James A. Sutherland
2001-02-17 20:14       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 10:57         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen [this message]
2001-02-17 20:28       ` Alan Olsen
2001-02-21 23:48         ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-17 22:07       ` Felix von Leitner
2001-02-17 20:08     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 20:22       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-17 20:41       ` Gregory Maxwell
2001-02-18 10:59         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 21:02           ` Bob Taylor
2001-02-17 22:38       ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-17 23:07         ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 15:20       ` Stefan Smietanowski
2001-02-18  0:51     ` Peter Samuelson
2001-02-16 17:25 ` Byron Albert
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2001-02-16 17:21 Wayne.Brown
2001-02-18  2:10 Torrey Hoffman
2001-02-18  3:55 Torrey Hoffman
2001-02-18  5:15 ` Ben Ford
2001-02-18 11:17   ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 16:42   ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 18:00     ` Gregory S. Youngblood
2001-02-18 18:04       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-19  1:36         ` Gregory S. Youngblood
2001-02-18 18:21       ` Peter Svensson
2001-02-18 23:14   ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-18 11:16 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 12:19   ` Francis Galiegue
2001-02-18 17:50   ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-18 18:13     ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 22:15       ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-18 22:25         ` Steve VanDevender
2001-02-18 22:31           ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-18 11:46 ` Alan Cox
2001-02-22  0:11 ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-22  1:39 Leif Sawyer
2001-02-22  1:44 ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson

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