* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-19 4:23 [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh Bagas Sanjaya
@ 2025-06-19 7:12 ` Randy Dunlap
2025-06-22 7:19 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2025-06-22 8:58 ` Vegard Nossum
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Randy Dunlap @ 2025-06-19 7:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bagas Sanjaya, Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation
Cc: Jonathan Corbet, Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga,
Akira Yokosawa, Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si,
Dongliang Mu, Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman,
Stanislav Fomichev, David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo,
Daniel Vetter
Hi Bagas,
On 6/18/25 9:23 PM, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> At present, kernel documentation uses system serif font for body text.
> Some people, however, objected to it and instead prefer that the
> typography choice must be legible, consistent, and accessible (after
> all, the audience ranges developers peeking into kernel internals to
> ordinary users that skimmed through Documentation/admin-guide/).
>
> To tackle the problem, follow Wikimedia's typography refresh [1].
> For the font choices, instead of using web fonts as in previous
> attempt [2], use:
>
> * Linux Libertine, Georgia, Times for serif (used in h1 and h2
> headings)
> * system font for sans-serif and monospace
>
> This allows for more readability and consistency without sacrificing
More readability is debatable IMO.
> page load times and bandwidth, as the font choices is most likely
> already available on many platforms.
>
> The reason why serif fonts is used for headings in complement to sans
> serif in text body is to break up visual monotony of docs page by
> creating contrast between headings (as entry point to docs information)
> and text body, which is important considering that kernel docs are
> quite lengthy with many sections.
It's interesting that mediawiki chose to split the serif and sans serif
usage this way. Newspapers essentially do the opposite: use sans serif
for headlines (mostly, not consistently) and use serif for body text.
Have you read "The Psychology of Computer Programming"?
[https://geraldmweinberg.com/Site/Programming_Psychology.html]
The content is very good but (at least in early editions) it was printed
completely using a sans serif font (probably Helvetica). It's not a
long book and I found the subject very interesting, but it took me
forever to read it because it's (or was, don't know about the later
editions) in sans serif typeface. I hated that part of it.
So I applied this patch and tested it. It works as far as I can tell.
I got tons of sans serif font text instead of serif font text that I
don't care for. (I don't mind that the sidebar text is sans serif.)
> For body text (excluding sidebar), it is set to #252525 on top
> of #FFFFFF background as they have contrast ratio 15.3:1, which
> is rated as AAA according to WCAG 2.0 section 1.4.6. Having slightly
> off-black foreground text on white background can reduce eye strain
> and juxtaposition on dyslexic readers.
>
> This refresh only applies to default Alabaster theme.
>
> [1]: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Typography_refresh
> [2]: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-doc/20231102123225.32768-1-bagasdotme@gmail.com/
>
> Signed-off-by: Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com>
> ---
> Documentation/conf.py | 5 +-
> Documentation/sphinx-static/typography.css | 62 ++++++++++++++++++++++
> 2 files changed, 66 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
> create mode 100644 Documentation/sphinx-static/typography.css
>
Thanks.
--
~Randy
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-19 7:12 ` Randy Dunlap
@ 2025-06-22 7:19 ` Bagas Sanjaya
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bagas Sanjaya @ 2025-06-22 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Randy Dunlap, Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation
Cc: Jonathan Corbet, Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga,
Akira Yokosawa, Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si,
Dongliang Mu, Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman,
Stanislav Fomichev, David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo,
Daniel Vetter
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2033 bytes --]
On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:12:38AM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> Hi Bagas,
>
> On 6/18/25 9:23 PM, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> > The reason why serif fonts is used for headings in complement to sans
> > serif in text body is to break up visual monotony of docs page by
> > creating contrast between headings (as entry point to docs information)
> > and text body, which is important considering that kernel docs are
> > quite lengthy with many sections.
>
> It's interesting that mediawiki chose to split the serif and sans serif
> usage this way. Newspapers essentially do the opposite: use sans serif
> for headlines (mostly, not consistently) and use serif for body text.
IMO I found that sans-serif is more pleasant to eye (i.e. lesser strain)
than Times New Roman on screen. My htmldocs build now uses Google Sans
Display and Roboto Mono, though (as web fonts).
>
>
> Have you read "The Psychology of Computer Programming"?
> [https://geraldmweinberg.com/Site/Programming_Psychology.html]
> The content is very good but (at least in early editions) it was printed
> completely using a sans serif font (probably Helvetica). It's not a
> long book and I found the subject very interesting, but it took me
> forever to read it because it's (or was, don't know about the later
> editions) in sans serif typeface. I hated that part of it.
I didn't read it, unfortunately, due to financial constraints.
(Oh, and in Indonesia where I live people usually shop things online
at Shopee, Tokopedia, and Lazada [my go-to marketplace] instead
of Amazon.)
>
> So I applied this patch and tested it. It works as far as I can tell.
> I got tons of sans serif font text instead of serif font text that I
> don't care for. (I don't mind that the sidebar text is sans serif.)
I keep the headings on sidebar in sans-serif. Also, the body text is
darkened (but not completely black) to give contrast between docs
body and sidebar.
Thanks.
--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-19 4:23 [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh Bagas Sanjaya
2025-06-19 7:12 ` Randy Dunlap
@ 2025-06-22 8:58 ` Vegard Nossum
2025-06-23 3:41 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2025-06-22 12:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2025-06-25 18:46 ` Jonathan Corbet
3 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Vegard Nossum @ 2025-06-22 8:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bagas Sanjaya, Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation
Cc: Jonathan Corbet, Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga,
Akira Yokosawa, Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si,
Dongliang Mu, Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman,
Stanislav Fomichev, David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo,
Daniel Vetter
On 19/06/2025 06:23, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> At present, kernel documentation uses system serif font for body text.
> Some people, however, objected to it and instead prefer that the
> typography choice must be legible, consistent, and accessible (after
> all, the audience ranges developers peeking into kernel internals to
> ordinary users that skimmed through Documentation/admin-guide/).
>
> To tackle the problem, follow Wikimedia's typography refresh [1].
> For the font choices, instead of using web fonts as in previous
> attempt [2], use:
>
> * Linux Libertine, Georgia, Times for serif (used in h1 and h2
> headings)
> * system font for sans-serif and monospace
>
> This allows for more readability and consistency without sacrificing
> page load times and bandwidth, as the font choices is most likely
> already available on many platforms.
Hi,
Could you share (links to) screenshots of the new look?
I know external links are ephemeral by nature and we prefer to have
stuff archived, but I think it would really help everybody to be able to
see what you see after applying the patches without having to build it
ourselves.
Thanks.
Vegard
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-22 8:58 ` Vegard Nossum
@ 2025-06-23 3:41 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2025-06-24 22:59 ` Carlos Bilbao
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bagas Sanjaya @ 2025-06-23 3:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Vegard Nossum, Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation
Cc: Jonathan Corbet, Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga,
Akira Yokosawa, Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si,
Dongliang Mu, Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman,
Stanislav Fomichev, David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo,
Daniel Vetter
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On Sun, Jun 22, 2025 at 10:58:08AM +0200, Vegard Nossum wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Could you share (links to) screenshots of the new look?
These are in a tracker issue on my fork [1].
Thanks.
[1]: https://github.com/bagasme/linux/issues/1
--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-23 3:41 ` Bagas Sanjaya
@ 2025-06-24 22:59 ` Carlos Bilbao
2025-06-25 0:35 ` Bagas Sanjaya
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Bilbao @ 2025-06-24 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bagas Sanjaya, Vegard Nossum, Linux Kernel Mailing List,
Linux Documentation
Cc: Jonathan Corbet, Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga,
Akira Yokosawa, Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si,
Dongliang Mu, Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman,
Stanislav Fomichev, David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo,
Daniel Vetter
Hello,
On 6/22/25 22:41, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2025 at 10:58:08AM +0200, Vegard Nossum wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Could you share (links to) screenshots of the new look?
> These are in a tracker issue on my fork [1].
>
> Thanks.
>
> [1]: https://github.com/bagasme/linux/issues/1
>
Thanks for the patch and for sharing screenshots, Bagas!
I'll be honest -- I was initially skeptical about the value of changing
fonts. But I do see how the updated typography improves readability and
feels friendlier overall. It follows modern web design trends like
Wikipedia’s; but I do wonder if we’re trading off some of the "personality"
of rough/challenging aura that fits kernel dev. Your new version feels a
bit less hacky/unique. Anyway, font preferences are subjective, e.g., I've
seen people run terminals with white backgrounds!
What I’m more concerned about is that if we merge this, someone else might
want to tweak another part of the UX next week simply because it “looks
better” to them. We've to draw a line on what kind of UX changes we’re open
to. From my side:
Nacked-by: Carlos Bilbao <carlos.bilbao@kernel.org>
Still, I really appreciate the effort you put into this, and I agree that
readability matters, especially for long docs like ours.
Thanks,
Carlos
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-24 22:59 ` Carlos Bilbao
@ 2025-06-25 0:35 ` Bagas Sanjaya
[not found] ` <CAOc0haLSQVO9RexsMDRJ9zx=TPOi5yC6ADX4VLSbFvi1bhP_iw@mail.gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bagas Sanjaya @ 2025-06-25 0:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carlos Bilbao, Vegard Nossum, Linux Kernel Mailing List,
Linux Documentation
Cc: Jonathan Corbet, Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga,
Akira Yokosawa, Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si,
Dongliang Mu, Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman,
Stanislav Fomichev, David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo,
Daniel Vetter
On 6/25/25 05:59, Carlos Bilbao wrote:
> I'll be honest -- I was initially skeptical about the value of changing
> fonts. But I do see how the updated typography improves readability and
> feels friendlier overall. It follows modern web design trends like
> Wikipedia’s; but I do wonder if we’re trading off some of the "personality"
> of rough/challenging aura that fits kernel dev. Your new version feels a
> bit less hacky/unique. Anyway, font preferences are subjective, e.g., I've
> seen people run terminals with white backgrounds!
>
I'm also leaning towards following web trends by this font tweak, though.
And yeah, when I first coded my HTML and CSS code in school, my peers
would've like to use non-monospace fonts ({sans-}serif) in Windows
Notepad without knowing that it was bad idea (as they didn't know that
monospace was the norm).
> What I’m more concerned about is that if we merge this, someone else might
> want to tweak another part of the UX next week simply because it “looks
> better” to them. We've to draw a line on what kind of UX changes we’re open
> to. From my side:
>
> Nacked-by: Carlos Bilbao <carlos.bilbao@kernel.org>
>
> Still, I really appreciate the effort you put into this, and I agree that
> readability matters, especially for long docs like ours.
>
Any suggestions without this tweak?
Thanks.
--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-19 4:23 [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh Bagas Sanjaya
2025-06-19 7:12 ` Randy Dunlap
2025-06-22 8:58 ` Vegard Nossum
@ 2025-06-22 12:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2025-06-25 18:46 ` Jonathan Corbet
3 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Mauro Carvalho Chehab @ 2025-06-22 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bagas Sanjaya
Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation, Jonathan Corbet,
Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga, Akira Yokosawa,
Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si, Dongliang Mu,
Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Stanislav Fomichev,
David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo, Daniel Vetter
Em Thu, 19 Jun 2025 11:23:19 +0700
Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com> escreveu:
> At present, kernel documentation uses system serif font for body text.
> Some people, however, objected to it and instead prefer that the
> typography choice must be legible, consistent, and accessible (after
> all, the audience ranges developers peeking into kernel internals to
> ordinary users that skimmed through Documentation/admin-guide/).
>
> To tackle the problem, follow Wikimedia's typography refresh [1].
> For the font choices, instead of using web fonts as in previous
> attempt [2], use:
>
> * Linux Libertine, Georgia, Times for serif (used in h1 and h2
> headings)
> * system font for sans-serif and monospace
>
> This allows for more readability and consistency without sacrificing
> page load times and bandwidth, as the font choices is most likely
> already available on many platforms.
>
> The reason why serif fonts is used for headings in complement to sans
> serif in text body is to break up visual monotony of docs page by
> creating contrast between headings (as entry point to docs information)
> and text body, which is important considering that kernel docs are
> quite lengthy with many sections.
>
> For body text (excluding sidebar), it is set to #252525 on top
> of #FFFFFF background as they have contrast ratio 15.3:1, which
> is rated as AAA according to WCAG 2.0 section 1.4.6. Having slightly
> off-black foreground text on white background can reduce eye strain
> and juxtaposition on dyslexic readers.
>
> This refresh only applies to default Alabaster theme.
>
> [1]: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Typography_refresh
> [2]: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-doc/20231102123225.32768-1-bagasdotme@gmail.com/
>
> Signed-off-by: Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com>
> ---
> Documentation/conf.py | 5 +-
> Documentation/sphinx-static/typography.css | 62 ++++++++++++++++++++++
> 2 files changed, 66 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
> create mode 100644 Documentation/sphinx-static/typography.css
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/conf.py b/Documentation/conf.py
> index 12de52a2b17e78..f5713cd70cc17c 100644
> --- a/Documentation/conf.py
> +++ b/Documentation/conf.py
> @@ -310,9 +310,12 @@ if html_theme == 'alabaster':
> 'sidebar_width': '15em',
> 'fixed_sidebar': 'true',
> 'font_size': 'inherit',
> - 'font_family': 'serif',
> }
>
> + html_css_files = [
> + 'typography.css',
> + ]
> +
> sys.stderr.write("Using %s theme\n" % html_theme)
I liked this part: having fonts inside a css. However the code is broken,
as there are already several parts of conf.py which alrease sets
html_css_files on different ways, depending on two make vars. From
make help:
make DOCS_THEME={sphinx-theme} selects a different Sphinx theme.
make DOCS_CSS={a .css file} adds a DOCS_CSS override file for html/epub output.
The code on conf.py in question is:
if html_theme in ["sphinx_rtd_theme", "sphinx_rtd_dark_mode"]:
...
html_css_files = [
"theme_overrides.css",
]
...
if html_theme == "sphinx_rtd_theme":
# Add color-specific RTD normal mode
html_css_files.append("theme_rtd_colors.css")
...
if "DOCS_CSS" in os.environ:
css = os.environ["DOCS_CSS"].split(" ")
for l in css:
html_css_files.append(l)
You can't just replace html_css_files without considering the above,
specially since one could be doing DOCS_CSS="some_other_typography.css".
IMO, the code should be instead:
if html_theme == "alabaster":
if not html_css_files:
html_css_files = [ "typography.css" ]
E.g. only use it if:
- the theme is the default one;
- the Kernel docs will be built without DOCS_CSS.
Thanks,
Mauro
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-19 4:23 [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh Bagas Sanjaya
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2025-06-22 12:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
@ 2025-06-25 18:46 ` Jonathan Corbet
2025-06-27 0:20 ` Bagas Sanjaya
3 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Corbet @ 2025-06-25 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bagas Sanjaya, Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation
Cc: Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga, Akira Yokosawa,
Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si, Dongliang Mu,
Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Stanislav Fomichev,
David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo, Daniel Vetter,
Bagas Sanjaya
Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com> writes:
> At present, kernel documentation uses system serif font for body text.
> Some people, however, objected to it and instead prefer that the
> typography choice must be legible, consistent, and accessible (after
> all, the audience ranges developers peeking into kernel internals to
> ordinary users that skimmed through Documentation/admin-guide/).
So I have not seen the objections from "some people"; can you point to
them, please?
> To tackle the problem, follow Wikimedia's typography refresh [1].
> For the font choices, instead of using web fonts as in previous
> attempt [2], use:
>
> * Linux Libertine, Georgia, Times for serif (used in h1 and h2
> headings)
> * system font for sans-serif and monospace
>
> This allows for more readability and consistency without sacrificing
> page load times and bandwidth, as the font choices is most likely
> already available on many platforms.
I am open to style changes to make the docs more readable, but I am far
from convinced that this is it. Mixing font styles in that way will not
be universally popular, the claim of "more readability" is
unsubstantiated, and "consistency" seems out of place when you're making
the fonts deliberately inconsistent...?
jon
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH RFC] Documentation: typography refresh
2025-06-25 18:46 ` Jonathan Corbet
@ 2025-06-27 0:20 ` Bagas Sanjaya
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bagas Sanjaya @ 2025-06-27 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan Corbet, Linux Kernel Mailing List, Linux Documentation
Cc: Mauro Carvalho Chehab, Federico Vaga, Akira Yokosawa,
Carlos Bilbao, Avadhut Naik, Alex Shi, Yanteng Si, Dongliang Mu,
Thomas Gleixner, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Stanislav Fomichev,
David Vernet, Miguel Ojeda, James Seo, Daniel Vetter
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1707 bytes --]
On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 12:46:16PM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote:
> Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > At present, kernel documentation uses system serif font for body text.
> > Some people, however, objected to it and instead prefer that the
> > typography choice must be legible, consistent, and accessible (after
> > all, the audience ranges developers peeking into kernel internals to
> > ordinary users that skimmed through Documentation/admin-guide/).
>
> So I have not seen the objections from "some people"; can you point to
> them, please?
None really but I feel that sans-serif looks aesthetically more pleasant
(to my eyes) on screen than bare Times New Roman.
>
> > To tackle the problem, follow Wikimedia's typography refresh [1].
> > For the font choices, instead of using web fonts as in previous
> > attempt [2], use:
> >
> > * Linux Libertine, Georgia, Times for serif (used in h1 and h2
> > headings)
> > * system font for sans-serif and monospace
> >
> > This allows for more readability and consistency without sacrificing
> > page load times and bandwidth, as the font choices is most likely
> > already available on many platforms.
>
> I am open to style changes to make the docs more readable, but I am far
> from convinced that this is it. Mixing font styles in that way will not
> be universally popular, the claim of "more readability" is
> unsubstantiated, and "consistency" seems out of place when you're making
> the fonts deliberately inconsistent...?
Because I don't have anything else to say in my mind as ideas when writing
this RFC.
Thanks.
--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread