Re: CD/DVD record

Re: CD/DVD record

[Alan Cox]

On Iau, 2004-08-19 at 14:25, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> Hello all...
> Recording this stuff is basically sending some commands to
> a device and then keeping a FIFO full until done.

"Driving consists of basically pressing down the pedals and moving
 the wheel, an four year old could do it"

> Maybe the `cdrecord` author needs some competition. This sounds
> like a good beginner's project....

Jörg may not be the best user interface on the planet but there is a
fair bit of complexity to CD burning.

Alan

CD/DVD record

[Richard B. Johnson]

Hello all...
Recording this stuff is basically sending some commands to
a device and then keeping a FIFO full until done.

If `cdrecord` doesn't do it, one can hack together something
that works in a day or so,... really good stuff in a week.
Maybe it's time to ......  anyway ..... the device characteristics
should be kept in an ASCII text file so the software doesn't have
to be re-written everytime a new CD recorder becomes available.

Maybe the `cdrecord` author needs some competition. This sounds
like a good beginner's project....

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.26 on an i686 machine (5570.56 BogoMips).
            Note 96.31% of all statistics are fiction.

Re: CD/DVD record

[Nigel Rantor]

Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> Hello all...
> Recording this stuff is basically sending some commands to
> a device and then keeping a FIFO full until done.

Lots of things that are easy to sum up on one sentence turn out the be 
hairy as a wookie, but yes, it does seem like a Simple(tm) problem.

> If `cdrecord` doesn't do it, one can hack together something
> that works in a day or so,... really good stuff in a week.

Hmm...not sure about that. Not if you do want device specific fixes in 
there too...

> Maybe it's time to ......  anyway ..... the device characteristics
> should be kept in an ASCII text file so the software doesn't have
> to be re-written everytime a new CD recorder becomes available.

Sounds good.

> Maybe the `cdrecord` author needs some competition. This sounds
> like a good beginner's project....

I'll admit to having some time on my hands but acquiring equipment to 
test with would be a stumbling block for me.

It would be nice if everyone could just put their egos aside and provide 
a united front wrt FOSS cd/dvd recording.

I was going to make some suggestions about how to do the above but then 
I have also been following the cdrecord thread and I'm not sure wading 
in on that makes sense...

   N

Re: CD/DVD record

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Alan Cox wrote:

> On Iau, 2004-08-19 at 14:25, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> > Hello all...
> > Recording this stuff is basically sending some commands to
> > a device and then keeping a FIFO full until done.
>
> "Driving consists of basically pressing down the pedals and moving
>  the wheel, an four year old could do it"
>

Good morning, Alan!  Gotta have legs long enough to reach, though.

> > Maybe the `cdrecord` author needs some competition. This sounds
> > like a good beginner's project....
>
> Jörg may not be the best user interface on the planet but there is a
> fair bit of complexity to CD burning.
>
> Alan
>

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.26 on an i686 machine (5570.56 BogoMips).
            Note 96.31% of all statistics are fiction.

Re: CD/DVD record

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Nigel Rantor wrote:

> Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> > Hello all...
> > Recording this stuff is basically sending some commands to
> > a device and then keeping a FIFO full until done.
>
> Lots of things that are easy to sum up on one sentence turn out the be
> hairy as a wookie, but yes, it does seem like a Simple(tm) problem.
>

Yes. There are hardware bugs (I once though bug was a reserved-
for-software word), moths are hardware problems ... Anyway...
some thought to putting all the differences in some writable
ASCII text and writing a program around that might be more
useful than complaining about an author's insistance upon
using some "strange at least for Unix" device naming scheme.

> > If `cdrecord` doesn't do it, one can hack together something
> > that works in a day or so,... really good stuff in a week.
>
> Hmm...not sure about that. Not if you do want device specific fixes in
> there too...
>

Back to the parse-stuff-in-a-file idea.

> > Maybe it's time to ......  anyway ..... the device characteristics
> > should be kept in an ASCII text file so the software doesn't have
> > to be re-written everytime a new CD recorder becomes available.
>
> Sounds good.
>
> > Maybe the `cdrecord` author needs some competition. This sounds
> > like a good beginner's project....
>
> I'll admit to having some time on my hands but acquiring equipment to
> test with would be a stumbling block for me.
>
> It would be nice if everyone could just put their egos aside and provide
> a united front wrt FOSS cd/dvd recording.
>
> I was going to make some suggestions about how to do the above but then
> I have also been following the cdrecord thread and I'm not sure wading
> in on that makes sense...
>
>    N
>

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.26 on an i686 machine (5570.56 BogoMips).
            Note 96.31% of all statistics are fiction.

Re: CD/DVD record

[Nigel Rantor]

Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> putting all the differences in some writable
> ASCII text and writing a program around that might be more
> useful than complaining about an author's insistance upon
> using some "strange at least for Unix" device naming scheme.

Just leaves me dispirited when people's energy goes to waste over issues 
like this though.

There's more important things to fix/build/hack.

   N

Re: CD/DVD record

[David Woodhouse]

On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 10:41 -0400, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> > "Driving consists of basically pressing down the pedals and moving
> >  the wheel, an four year old could do it"
> >
> Good morning, Alan!  Gotta have legs long enough to reach, though.

Or a periscope.

-- 
dwmw2

Re: CD/DVD record

[Helge Hafting]

Nigel Rantor wrote:

> Richard B. Johnson wrote:
>
>> Hello all...
>> Recording this stuff is basically sending some commands to
>> a device and then keeping a FIFO full until done.
>
>
> Lots of things that are easy to sum up on one sentence turn out the be 
> hairy as a wookie, but yes, it does seem like a Simple(tm) problem.
>
>> If `cdrecord` doesn't do it, one can hack together something
>> that works in a day or so,... really good stuff in a week.
>
>
> Hmm...not sure about that. Not if you do want device specific fixes in 
> there too...

The question then becomes - how many percent of devices in use need 
fixes to work?
A simple program with _no_ fixes, that works with correct devices only 
might not be that hard.
After it becomes popular people simply take care to buy working 
burners.  The old broken
tend to get upgraded after a while, or they can be used with the old 
cdrecord.
[...]

> I'll admit to having some time on my hands but acquiring equipment to 
> test with would be a stumbling block for me.

Take one thing at a time.  If you want to try this, start writing a 
program that works well
with your particular burner.  Chances are it'll work with many others 
too.  And then you
get patches from people who have other equipment.  You won't need to 
have everything
yourself.

>
> It would be nice if everyone could just put their egos aside and 
> provide a united front wrt FOSS cd/dvd recording.

:-) This goes for all open source.  I don't think it'll happen though. :-/

Helge Hafting

Re: CD/DVD record

[Nigel Rantor]

Helge Hafting wrote:
>> Hmm...not sure about that. Not if you do want device specific fixes in 
>> there too...
> 
> The question then becomes - how many percent of devices in use need 
> fixes to work?
> A simple program with _no_ fixes, that works with correct devices only 
> might not be that hard.
> After it becomes popular people simply take care to buy working 
> burners.  The old broken
> tend to get upgraded after a while, or they can be used with the old 
> cdrecord.
> [...]

Good point. Agreed.

>> I'll admit to having some time on my hands but acquiring equipment to 
>> test with would be a stumbling block for me.
> 
> Take one thing at a time.  If you want to try this, start writing a 
> program that works well
> with your particular burner.  Chances are it'll work with many others 
> too.  And then you
> get patches from people who have other equipment.  You won't need to 
> have everything
> yourself.

Another good point. Agreed.

>> It would be nice if everyone could just put their egos aside and 
>> provide a united front wrt FOSS cd/dvd recording.
> 
> :-) This goes for all open source.  I don't think it'll happen though. :-/

Hat trick on the Good Point(tm) front. Agreed!

Well then I may go and look into cd recording then...hmm...

Cheers,

   Nige

Re: CD/DVD record

[Bill Davidsen]

Nigel Rantor wrote:
> Helge Hafting wrote:
> 
>>> Hmm...not sure about that. Not if you do want device specific fixes 
>>> in there too...
>>
>>
>> The question then becomes - how many percent of devices in use need 
>> fixes to work?
>> A simple program with _no_ fixes, that works with correct devices only 
>> might not be that hard.
>> After it becomes popular people simply take care to buy working 
>> burners.  The old broken
>> tend to get upgraded after a while, or they can be used with the old 
>> cdrecord.
>> [...]
> 
> 
> Good point. Agreed.
> 
>>> I'll admit to having some time on my hands but acquiring equipment to 
>>> test with would be a stumbling block for me.
>>
>>
>> Take one thing at a time.  If you want to try this, start writing a 
>> program that works well
>> with your particular burner.  Chances are it'll work with many others 
>> too.  And then you
>> get patches from people who have other equipment.  You won't need to 
>> have everything
>> yourself.
> 
> 
> Another good point. Agreed.
> 
>>> It would be nice if everyone could just put their egos aside and 
>>> provide a united front wrt FOSS cd/dvd recording.
>>
>>
>> :-) This goes for all open source.  I don't think it'll happen though. 
>> :-/
> 
> 
> Hat trick on the Good Point(tm) front. Agreed!
> 
> Well then I may go and look into cd recording then...hmm...

I hate to say it, but why reinvent the wheel? I'm sure that if Jorg 
doesn't support new technology there will be a project, either on 
sourceforge or freestanding, to create OpenCDburn or some such. It would 
be very hard to find someone as technically good as Jorg in this area, 
and hard to find anyone worse at working with others.

That's really sad, because if he would accept more from others and not 
insist on having the last (or only) word on every issue the software 
would move faster and with less hostility.

-- 
    -bill davidsen (davidsen@tmr.com)
"The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the
  last possible moment - but no longer"  -me

Re: CD/DVD record

[Stephan von Krawczynski]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:07:09 -0400
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:

> > Hat trick on the Good Point(tm) front. Agreed!
> > 
> > Well then I may go and look into cd recording then...hmm...
> 
> I hate to say it, but why reinvent the wheel? I'm sure that if Jorg 
> doesn't support new technology there will be a project, either on 
> sourceforge or freestanding, to create OpenCDburn or some such. It would 
> be very hard to find someone as technically good as Jorg in this area, 
> [...]

Actually this is only FUD spread by Joerg. He is definitely not the only man on
this planet knowing how to program CD/DVD burning equipment.

Generally cdrecord has one big deficiency, which obviously was intended:
it does not allow medium skilled programmers from drive _vendors_ to add
support for their latest hardware easily. Everyone has to beg Joerg, which
obviously increased his ego dramatically over the years.
It would be a lot better to start off a new project where vendors (or anybody
with skill and will) can contribute more easily, i.e. something that is truely
_open_.

Regards,
Stephan

Re: CD/DVD record

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Stephan von Krawczynski <skraw@ithnet.com> writes:

>Actually this is only FUD spread by Joerg. He is definitely not the only man on
>this planet knowing how to program CD/DVD burning equipment.

>Generally cdrecord has one big deficiency, which obviously was intended:
>it does not allow medium skilled programmers from drive _vendors_ to add
>support for their latest hardware easily. Everyone has to beg Joerg, which
>obviously increased his ego dramatically over the years.
>It would be a lot better to start off a new project where vendors (or anybody
>with skill and will) can contribute more easily, i.e. something that is truely
>_open_.

... and you can start standing on the shoulders of cdrecord, looking
at all the "strange stuff" and "vendor information" that Mr. Schilling
has used. After all, this is what the GPL and open source is all
about.

Rip out, what is useful, discard the rest, ignore the
complaints. That's how it works.

	Regards
		Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen          INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de        +49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/

RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development  -- hero for hire
   Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development

"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
 fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
 position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
 is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
 deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
                       -- Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
                                    Open Source Software Development"

Re: CD/DVD record

[Bill Davidsen]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:07:09 -0400
> Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:
> 
> > > Hat trick on the Good Point(tm) front. Agreed!
> > > 
> > > Well then I may go and look into cd recording then...hmm...
> > 
> > I hate to say it, but why reinvent the wheel? I'm sure that if Jorg 
> > doesn't support new technology there will be a project, either on 
> > sourceforge or freestanding, to create OpenCDburn or some such. It would 
> > be very hard to find someone as technically good as Jorg in this area, 
> > [...]
> 
> Actually this is only FUD spread by Joerg. He is definitely not the only man on
> this planet knowing how to program CD/DVD burning equipment.

Good, glad you have a supply of SCSI gurus who want to dedicate all their
spare time to maintaining OS software. Joerg has been at this for years,
and I think that while identifying technically competent people is
possible, I doubt there's a big overlap with the set of people who have
nothing better to do with their spare time. When I said "find" I certainly
meant both qualifications.
> 
> Generally cdrecord has one big deficiency, which obviously was intended:
> it does not allow medium skilled programmers from drive _vendors_ to add
> support for their latest hardware easily. Everyone has to beg Joerg, which
> obviously increased his ego dramatically over the years.
> It would be a lot better to start off a new project where vendors (or anybody
> with skill and will) can contribute more easily, i.e. something that is truely
> _open_.

A nice idea, but in truth if a vendor wants support in cdrecord a tech ref
and sample unit will almost certainly do it. I'd love to have support for
HD_BURN in Linux, but Joerg can't seem to get the info needed. I doubt
that people who won't release the info will trouble to write the driver.

-- 
bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
  CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.

Re: CD/DVD record

[Stephan von Krawczynski]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:54:25 -0400 (EDT)
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:
> >
> > Actually this is only FUD spread by Joerg. He is definitely not the only
> > man on this planet knowing how to program CD/DVD burning equipment.
> 
> Good, glad you have a supply of SCSI gurus who want to dedicate all their
> spare time to maintaining OS software. Joerg has been at this for years,
> and I think that while identifying technically competent people is
> possible, I doubt there's a big overlap with the set of people who have
> nothing better to do with their spare time. When I said "find" I certainly
> meant both qualifications.

Well, please read the docs for cdrecord again carefully. The story is not about
_free_, it is about _money_. Certain versions of cdrecord are licensed to
commercial customers for _money_. So please rethink your position.

> > Generally cdrecord has one big deficiency, which obviously was intended:
> > it does not allow medium skilled programmers from drive _vendors_ to add
> > support for their latest hardware easily. Everyone has to beg Joerg, which
> > obviously increased his ego dramatically over the years.
> > It would be a lot better to start off a new project where vendors (or
> > anybody with skill and will) can contribute more easily, i.e. something
> > that is truely_open_.
> 
> A nice idea, but in truth if a vendor wants support in cdrecord a tech ref
> and sample unit will almost certainly do it. I'd love to have support for
> HD_BURN in Linux, but Joerg can't seem to get the info needed. I doubt
> that people who won't release the info will trouble to write the driver.

Well, if I were owner of docs that are important for Joerg to make money and
had listened to him for the past 4 or 5 years and how he treated people (and
still does) it would be highly probable that I wouldn't be very cooperative,
too.
Please see the whole picture, not only what Joerg talks about.
Just take a clear look at his latest code changes and tell me if they look like
being done by an open-minded and friendly person to you.

Speaking from a potential commercial customers' point of view I decided against
using this software, not because of the money, but because of the
closed-everything-and-his-ears habit of the author. I don't see how this
project can survive its current author. Therefore I consider it an already dead
horse.

-- 
Regards,
Stephan

Re: CD/DVD record

[Bill Davidsen]

Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:54:25 -0400 (EDT)
> Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:
>>
>>>Actually this is only FUD spread by Joerg. He is definitely not the only
>>>man on this planet knowing how to program CD/DVD burning equipment.
>>
>>Good, glad you have a supply of SCSI gurus who want to dedicate all their
>>spare time to maintaining OS software. Joerg has been at this for years,
>>and I think that while identifying technically competent people is
>>possible, I doubt there's a big overlap with the set of people who have
>>nothing better to do with their spare time. When I said "find" I certainly
>>meant both qualifications.
> 
> 
> Well, please read the docs for cdrecord again carefully. The story is not about
> _free_, it is about _money_. Certain versions of cdrecord are licensed to
> commercial customers for _money_. So please rethink your position.

You mean ProDVD? It's a JOKE! I tried to buy a copy when it came out, 
and he doesn't take Paypal, and he doesn't take credit cards, and he 
doesn't want personal checks, and given the new rules about sending cash 
to a foreign national from the US I doubt if he makes enough to buy 
beer. Particularly since he found it easier to give a free license for 
personal use than to setup the accounts he could use to get money in 
convenient ways.
> 
> 
>>>Generally cdrecord has one big deficiency, which obviously was intended:
>>>it does not allow medium skilled programmers from drive _vendors_ to add
>>>support for their latest hardware easily. Everyone has to beg Joerg, which
>>>obviously increased his ego dramatically over the years.
>>>It would be a lot better to start off a new project where vendors (or
>>>anybody with skill and will) can contribute more easily, i.e. something
>>>that is truely_open_.
>>
>>A nice idea, but in truth if a vendor wants support in cdrecord a tech ref
>>and sample unit will almost certainly do it. I'd love to have support for
>>HD_BURN in Linux, but Joerg can't seem to get the info needed. I doubt
>>that people who won't release the info will trouble to write the driver.
> 
> 
> Well, if I were owner of docs that are important for Joerg to make money and
> had listened to him for the past 4 or 5 years and how he treated people (and
> still does) it would be highly probable that I wouldn't be very cooperative,
> too.
> Please see the whole picture, not only what Joerg talks about.
> Just take a clear look at his latest code changes and tell me if they look like
> being done by an open-minded and friendly person to you.
> 
> Speaking from a potential commercial customers' point of view I decided against
> using this software, not because of the money, but because of the
> closed-everything-and-his-ears habit of the author. I don't see how this
> project can survive its current author. Therefore I consider it an already dead
> horse.
> 
That is a problem, but I will pass on starting over when there is a fine 
  software to use. He's not the only dificult author around, or even the 
most dificult, just the most visible.

-- 
    -bill davidsen (davidsen@tmr.com)
"The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the
  last possible moment - but no longer"  -me