From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.1 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18198C5517A for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 04:09:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C5E206A1 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 04:09:50 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="uBTFA/Gy" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1732095AbgKJEJt (ORCPT ); Mon, 9 Nov 2020 23:09:49 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:49406 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1731265AbgKJEJt (ORCPT ); Mon, 9 Nov 2020 23:09:49 -0500 Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11234C0613CF; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 20:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id x7so10537754ili.5; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 20:09:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Utwg1xneuTB1DBHIkBfa/pGwylx/dG7h4KQnrhH/0NM=; b=uBTFA/GyAp2x/Sl39FT2wp8Hzh0vnDazURfwIMHDO6wq8d6X3cvGBGumfzy+Hcp3RN jU5DTRtu3aNVO7QJfTTE1xfpYm/rDl3WDwf+H5bJWoJwFg+rScyudInBwmxoEvzuDuCg AIbzyYNfIOcCFWYBZPgkYTZPsbMML7qm0GFEkOMpQvvLC41jnQkG06ij/m6n8yKbxxMV rgfa7sMSJkitUNhjOSB86WPNo8B5Q4nz4bkIZ7radfTk8ypgvd5swZadEEbYByCxXKIG kCSTopMwsJbd2oBaatepsGI3zeZKrfcWVZ2iROYSrvw4V9r9tPSOYFiDHKfUXrFBSaG3 XTrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Utwg1xneuTB1DBHIkBfa/pGwylx/dG7h4KQnrhH/0NM=; b=iVtZVtd7YsvilTx1epxiYhIvKlMB6zD36S8GQzGk9K2FO4N43rAtYdoNOPZ/7YluJf BGFHNma/ewvzwEPSlhhIcWa8H//Y47A7HlvAxILk2C27Csv4QQBjfPC2qK1VVx9PJXZV CzB8jeKlEvKfZ+JuEAcnS2dn+r6Z+DYZlP6qIkBhpxbeSg5R02Nzae9G9kEEstyHo22j 2qca6iX1EHHmFX3ZeywIKYkxhTEZeSuiyE4Ef+jLw3u+pSZtYkZme6JUP4Xyu5htWp2y 0Pn1kogvOwX/4gfEyoBPbYj/QDnMc1bovCVhLwLGSR4hS8FqmcmJRke7dgvcc/vWEoh3 VBGA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ft16nADyT7d6qHRQMMglrxsjtPrWYZ8pbrAd9Jq1FzMaV11s7 Bl6FoYMCXcMKchskb+CNazk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw13o4Oa2PLdGoZBDR6cN42/13Zwro8be5eInCsk7i0PYOhbKkURYECDl3TfmJ6gTbxuDEkLQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:4a9:: with SMTP id e9mr12630174ils.24.1604981388270; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 20:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from Davids-MacBook-Pro.local ([2601:282:800:dc80:7980:a277:20c7:aa44]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id l78sm8440977ild.30.2020.11.09.20.09.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Nov 2020 20:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support To: Alexei Starovoitov Cc: Stephen Hemminger , Andrii Nakryiko , Jiri Benc , Edward Cree , Hangbin Liu , Daniel Borkmann , Alexei Starovoitov , Martin KaFai Lau , Song Liu , Yonghong Song , David Miller , Jesper Dangaard Brouer , Networking , bpf , Andrii Nakryiko , =?UTF-8?B?VG9rZSBIw7hpbGFuZC1Kw7hyZ2Vu?= =?UTF-8?Q?sen?= References: <20201104031145.nmtggnzomfee4fma@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com> <07f149f6-f8ac-96b9-350d-b289ef16d82f@solarflare.com> <20201106094425.5cc49609@redhat.com> <20201106152537.53737086@hermes.local> <45d88ca7-b22a-a117-5743-b965ccd0db35@gmail.com> <20201109014515.rxz3uppztndbt33k@ast-mbp> From: David Ahern Message-ID: <14c9e6da-e764-2e2c-bbbb-bc95992ed258@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 21:09:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201109014515.rxz3uppztndbt33k@ast-mbp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: netdev@vger.kernel.org On 11/8/20 6:45 PM, Alexei Starovoitov wrote: > > I don't understand why on one side you're pointing out existing quirkiness with > bpf usability while at the same time arguing to make it _less_ user friendly I believe you have confused my comments with others. My comments have focused on one aspect: The insistence by BPF maintainers that all code bases and users constantly chase latest and greatest versions of relevant S/W to use BPF - though I believe a lot of the tool chasing stems from BTF. I am fairly certain I have been consistent in that theme within this thread. > when myself, Daniel, Andrii explained in detail what libbpf does and how it > affects user experience? > > The analogy of libbpf in iproute2 and libbfd in gdb is that both libraries Your gdb / libbfd analogy misses the mark - by a lot. That analogy is relevant for bpftool, not iproute2. iproute2 can leverage libbpf for 3 or 4 tc modules and a few xdp hooks. That is it, and it is a tiny percentage of the functionality in the package.