Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Lennert Buytenhek]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Stefan Roese wrote:

> The main question I have is, where should the IXP4xx access-library
> be located in the kernel directory structure?

Maybe you can explain to the list readers what it is and what it does?

If it's ixp4xx-specific, arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx might just be the best
place.  The ixp2000 microengine loader was put into arch/arm/mach-ixp2000
for mostly that reason (being ixp2000-specific), while the ethernet driver
that uses that microengine loader will live under drivers/net/.


> Please comment on this and let me know if such an effort has any chance
> of getting accepted into the official kernel.

Assuming that the license issues have all been worked out now, it'll
mostly depend on the quality of the code.  (If this is the same Intel
code that I saw a while ago, I think it'll need a fair amount of work
before it can go in.)


cheers,
Lennert

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Lennert Buytenhek]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 03:48:22PM +0100, Stefan Roese wrote:

> Hi Lennert,

Hello,


> > > The main question I have is, where should the IXP4xx access-library
> > > be located in the kernel directory structure?
> >
> > Maybe you can explain to the list readers what it is and what it does?
> 
> It's the library needed for the NPE (network processor engines)
> ethernet driver to access the on chip NPE's (e.g. download microcode,
> communicate with the NPE's etc.). Unfortunately a pretty big piece of
> software written to support multiple OS's. :-(

So that means that there are wrappers for malloc and free and stuff
like that?  Doesn't sound very likely that you'll get that merged..


> > > Please comment on this and let me know if such an effort has any chance
> > > of getting accepted into the official kernel.
> >
> > Assuming that the license issues have all been worked out now, it'll
> > mostly depend on the quality of the code.  (If this is the same Intel
> > code that I saw a while ago, I think it'll need a fair amount of work
> > before it can go in.)
> 
> It most likely is the same code. Currently it's version 2.0. This
> version is available under a special Intel license 
> (http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/ixp425swr1.htm)
> and under the BSD license (when you bug your Intel contact enough).
> The files seem to be the same, only the header with the license is
> exchanged.

That sounds very fishy -- are you 100% sure that the person doing the
s/Proprietary/BSD/ was in fact authorized to do so?  (This is one reason
why I'd love to see someone @intel.com submit this code upstream, BTW.)


cheers,
Lennert

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Deepak Saxena]

On Dec 21 2005, at 15:48, Stefan Roese was caught saying:
> Hi Lennert,
> 
> On Wednesday 21 December 2005 14:52, Lennert Buytenhek wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Stefan Roese wrote:
> > > The main question I have is, where should the IXP4xx access-library
> > > be located in the kernel directory structure?
> >
> > Maybe you can explain to the list readers what it is and what it does?
> 
> It's the library needed for the NPE (network processor engines) ethernet 
> driver to access the on chip NPE's (e.g. download microcode, communicate with 
> the NPE's etc.). Unfortunately a pretty big piece of software written to 
> support multiple OS's. :-(

As I mentioned in my earlier reply, we don't want all those abstractions
in the kernel.

> It most likely is the same code. Currently it's version 2.0. This version is 
> available under a special Intel license 
> (http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/ixp425swr1.htm) and 
> under the BSD license (when you bug your Intel contact enough). The files 
> seem to be the same, only the header with the license is exchanged.

I'll take a look a this some more, but is it just the HAL or the whole
stack that's open?

~Deepak

-- 
Deepak Saxena - dsaxena@plexity.net - http://www.plexity.net

A starving child in Africa or you in front of your TV?
Where's the real tragedy?

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Marc Singer]

On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 06:07:52AM -0800, Deepak Saxena wrote:
> On Dec 21 2005, at 15:48, Stefan Roese was caught saying:
> > Hi Lennert,
> > 
> > On Wednesday 21 December 2005 14:52, Lennert Buytenhek wrote:
> > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Stefan Roese wrote:
> > > > The main question I have is, where should the IXP4xx access-library
> > > > be located in the kernel directory structure?
> > >
> > > Maybe you can explain to the list readers what it is and what it does?
> > 
> > It's the library needed for the NPE (network processor engines) ethernet 
> > driver to access the on chip NPE's (e.g. download microcode, communicate with 
> > the NPE's etc.). Unfortunately a pretty big piece of software written to 
> > support multiple OS's. :-(
> 
> As I mentioned in my earlier reply, we don't want all those abstractions
> in the kernel.
> 
> > It most likely is the same code. Currently it's version 2.0. This version is 
> > available under a special Intel license 
> > (http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/ixp425swr1.htm) and 
> > under the BSD license (when you bug your Intel contact enough). The files 
> > seem to be the same, only the header with the license is exchanged.
> 
> I'll take a look a this some more, but is it just the HAL or the whole
> stack that's open?

I chatted with Lennert about this and was, well, amazed.  In reading
what I see on the web site, it looks to me that the library is still
heavily guarded. They're publishing a GPL'd 'driver' that links with
the library.

The click-through license establishes the same ol' terms.  "You can
only distribute this software with a hardware product."

Please show me where this new BSD license appears.




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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Stefan Roese]

On Saturday 24 December 2005 17:36, Marc Singer wrote:
> > > It most likely is the same code. Currently it's version 2.0. This
> > > version is available under a special Intel license
> > > (http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/ixp425swr1.htm)
> > > and under the BSD license (when you bug your Intel contact enough). The
> > > files seem to be the same, only the header with the license is
> > > exchanged.
> >
> > I'll take a look a this some more, but is it just the HAL or the whole
> > stack that's open?
>
> I chatted with Lennert about this and was, well, amazed.  In reading
> what I see on the web site, it looks to me that the library is still
> heavily guarded. They're publishing a GPL'd 'driver' that links with
> the library.

Yes, that's the ethernet driver using this access lib to communicate with the 
NPE's. This driver is published under the GPL.

> The click-through license establishes the same ol' terms.  "You can
> only distribute this software with a hardware product."
>
> Please show me where this new BSD license appears.

As far as I know, you can't find it on the Intel web site. As mentioned 
earlier, we (or our customer) had a lot of discussions with our Intel 
contacts, about getting a version of this access lib under a license allowing 
us to include it in GPL projects (U-Boot and Linux kernel). Finally we got 
access to this BSD version of this library, which seems to exist for quite 
some time. Please don't ask me why this version is not published officially 
by Intel.
 
Best regards,
Stefan

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Deepak Saxena]

On Dec 27 2005, at 08:49, jamal was caught saying:
> A question for you: Does the 4XX allow you to rewrite the
> microcode? And if yes, why would you push this intel specific
> microcode?

No. The NPEs on the 4xx are not user-programmable like the uEngines.
You basically download the FW into the NPEs and they provide a "known"
interface that is accessible through Intel's software stack. We don't
want the FW in the kernel, we want the kernel interface, but we want
it written from scratch with none of the abstraction in the Intel code.

~Deepak

-- 
Deepak Saxena - dsaxena@plexity.net - http://www.plexity.net

A starving child in Africa or you in front of your TV?
Where's the real tragedy?

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Deepak Saxena]

On Dec 27 2005, at 15:08, Krzysztof Halasa was caught saying:
> jamal <hadi@cyberus.ca> writes:
> 
> > No experience with the 4xx but some with the other intel NPs.
> > Is the driver a "dual stack" approach that Intel typically
> > has?
> 
> No, the Ethernet driver is Linux-only and uses the access library.
> Both are crap BTW, the library is much worse.
> 
> Actually I think the whole library needs to be rewritten from (almost)
> scratch (resulting in 5% or less code), and the Ethernet driver wouldn't
> be a problem then. The BSD-licensed version would of course help.
> 
> > Intel should be able to fund you to rewrite it - convincing them
> > they are going to sell more chips this way seems to be not too
> > hard, no?
> 
> Any Intel contacts interested? I could possibly earn some money as
> well :-)

Good luck. I've been working closely with Intel on the kernel side of the
IXP for 3 years now and the only business person in that division that 
understood the benefits of the going to GPL and how the Linux world works
is no longer there. From their point of view, it is simpler to have a single
codebase shared among VxWorks, WinCE, Linux, and QNX (?) than to have a 
separate Linux version.

~Deepak

-- 
Deepak Saxena - dsaxena@plexity.net - http://www.plexity.net

A starving child in Africa or you in front of your TV?
Where's the real tragedy?

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Stefan Roese]

On Saturday 24 December 2005 15:07, Deepak Saxena wrote:
> On Dec 21 2005, at 15:48, Stefan Roese was caught saying:
> > Hi Lennert,
> >
> > On Wednesday 21 December 2005 14:52, Lennert Buytenhek wrote:
> > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Stefan Roese wrote:
> > > > The main question I have is, where should the IXP4xx access-library
> > > > be located in the kernel directory structure?
> > >
> > > Maybe you can explain to the list readers what it is and what it does?
> >
> > It's the library needed for the NPE (network processor engines) ethernet
> > driver to access the on chip NPE's (e.g. download microcode, communicate
> > with the NPE's etc.). Unfortunately a pretty big piece of software
> > written to support multiple OS's. :-(
>
> As I mentioned in my earlier reply, we don't want all those abstractions
> in the kernel.

Understood. But a total rewrite of this code is unfortunately not an option, 
since it's just too much work (without a sponsor).

> > It most likely is the same code. Currently it's version 2.0. This version
> > is available under a special Intel license
> > (http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/ixp425swr1.htm)
> > and under the BSD license (when you bug your Intel contact enough). The
> > files seem to be the same, only the header with the license is exchanged.
>
> I'll take a look a this some more, but is it just the HAL or the whole
> stack that's open?

It's the complete ixp400 access library. The file available via the link above 
is called "IPL_ixp400AccessLibrary-2_0.zip" and the BSD version of it is 
called "BSD_ixp400AccessLibrary-2_0.zip". Only the license headers seem to be 
replaced. As I heard the 2.1 version should also be available in the BSD 
version in december, but I didn't get access to it until now.

Best regards,
Stefan

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Deepak Saxena]

On Dec 27 2005, at 10:45, Stefan Roese was caught saying:
> 
> Understood. But a total rewrite of this code is unfortunately not an option, 
> since it's just too much work (without a sponsor).
> 
> > > It most likely is the same code. Currently it's version 2.0. This version
> > > is available under a special Intel license
> > > (http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/ixp425swr1.htm)
> > > and under the BSD license (when you bug your Intel contact enough). The
> > > files seem to be the same, only the header with the license is exchanged.
> >
> > I'll take a look a this some more, but is it just the HAL or the whole
> > stack that's open?
> 
> It's the complete ixp400 access library. The file available via the link above 
> is called "IPL_ixp400AccessLibrary-2_0.zip" and the BSD version of it is 
> called "BSD_ixp400AccessLibrary-2_0.zip". Only the license headers seem to be 
> replaced. As I heard the 2.1 version should also be available in the BSD 
> version in december, but I didn't get access to it until now.

If it ss already licensed as BSD minus the advertising clause, just make
your customer happy and integrate it as is into their kernel. There is
no point making a clean version of the library as it will never go
upstream.

~Deepak

-- 
Deepak Saxena - dsaxena@plexity.net - http://www.plexity.net

A starving child in Africa or you in front of your TV?
Where's the real tragedy?

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Re: Integrating IXP4xx NPE support in kernel (with IXP4xx accesslibrary)

[Deepak Saxena]

On Dec 21 2005, at 14:52, Lennert Buytenhek was caught saying:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Stefan Roese wrote:
> 
> > The main question I have is, where should the IXP4xx access-library
> > be located in the kernel directory structure?
> 
> Maybe you can explain to the list readers what it is and what it does?
> 
> If it's ixp4xx-specific, arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx might just be the best
> place.  The ixp2000 microengine loader was put into arch/arm/mach-ixp2000
> for mostly that reason (being ixp2000-specific), while the ethernet driver
> that uses that microengine loader will live under drivers/net/.

The access library is also used by the ixp2350 and will be used by next
generation Intel parts, so it needs to go somewhere common.
arch/arm/common or maybe drivers/net/ixp.

~Deepak

-- 
Deepak Saxena - dsaxena@plexity.net - http://www.plexity.net

A starving child in Africa or you in front of your TV?
Where's the real tragedy?

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