Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.

C.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Theo de Raadt <deraadt-VON6Tr2NNtkmbxgs1yVkuA@public.gmane.org>
Date: 31-Aug-2007 21:40
Subject: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing
To: misc-7YlrpqBBQ3VAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org


[bcc'd to Eben Moglen so that people don't flood him]

I stopped making public statements in the recent controversy because
Eben Moglen started working behind the scenes to 'improve' what Linux
people are doing wrong with licensing, and he asked me to give him
pause, so his team could work.  Honestly, I was greatly troubled by
the situation, because even people like Alan Cox were giving other
Linux developers advice to ... break the law.  And furthermore, there
are even greater potential risks for how the various communities
interact.

For the record -- I was right and the Linux developers cannot change
the licenses in any of those ways proposed in those diffs, or that
conversation (http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/28/157).

It is illegal to modify a license unless you are the owner/author,
because it is a legal document.  If there are multiple owners/authors,
they must all agree.  A person who receives the file under two
licenses can use the file in either way....  but if they distribute
the file (modified or unmodified!), they must distribute it with the
existing license intact, because the licenses we all use have
statements which say that the license may not be removed.

It may seem that the licenses let one _distribute_ it under either
license, but this interpretation of the license is false -- it is
still illegal to break up, cut up, or modify someone else's legal
document, and, it cannot be replaced by another license because it may
not be removed.  Hence, a dual licensed file always remains dual
licensed, every time it is distributed.

Now I've been nice enough to give Eben and his team a few days time to
communicate inside the Linux community, to convince them that what
they have proposed/discussed is wrong at a legal level.  I think that
Eben also agrees with me that there are grave concerns about how this
leads to problems at the ethical and community levels (at some level,
a ethos is needed for Linux developers to work with *BSD developers).
And there are possibilities that similar issues could loom in the
larger open source communities who are writing applications.

Eben has thus far chosen not to make a public statement, but since
time is running out on people's memory, I am making one.  Also, I feel
that a lot of Linux "relicencing" meme-talkin' trolls basically have
attacked me very unfairly again, so I am not going to wait for Eben to
say something public about this.

In http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/29/183, Alan Cox managed to summarize
what Jiri Slaby and Luis Rodriguez were trying to do by proposing a
modification of a Dual Licenced file without the consent of all the
authors.  Alan asks "So whats the problem ?".  Well, Alan, I must
caution you -- your post is advising people to break the law.

I will attempt to describe in simple terms, based on what I have been
taught, how one must handle such licenses:

- If you receive dual licensed code, you may not delete the license
  you don't like and then distribute it.  It has to stay, because you
  may not edit someone's else's license -- which is a three-part legal
  document (For instance: Copyright notice, BSD, followed by GPL).

- If you receive ISC or BSD licensed code, you may not delete the
  license.  Same principle, since the notice says so.  It's the law.
  Really.

- If you add "large pieces of originality" to the code which are valid
  for copyright protection on their own, you may choose to put a different
  and seperate (must be non-conflicting...) license at the top of the file
  above the existing license.

    (Warning: things become less clear as to what the combination of
    licenses mean, though -- there are ethical traps, too).

- If you wish for everyone to remain friends, you should give code back.

  That means (at some ethical or friendliness level) you probably do
  not want to put a GPL at the top of a BSD or ISC file, because you
  would be telling the people who wrote the BSD or ISC file:

     "Thanks for what you wrote, but this is a one-way street, you give
     us code, and we take it, we give you you nothing back.  screw off."

In either case, I think a valuable lessons has been taught us here in
the BSD world -- there are many many GPL loving people who are going
to try to find any way to not give back and share (I will mention one
name: Luis Rodriguez has been a fanatic pushing us for dual licensed,
and I feel he is to blame for this particular problem).  Many of those
same people have been saying for years that BSD code can be stolen,
and that is why people should GPL their code.

Well, the lesson they have really taught us is that they consider the
GPL their best tool to take from us!

GPL fans said the great problem we would face is that companies would
take our BSD code, modify it, and not give back.  Nope -- the great
problem we face is that people would wrap the GPL around our code, and
lock us out in the same way that these supposed companies would lock
us out.  Just like the Linux community, we have many companies giving
us code back, all the time.  But once the code is GPL'd, we cannot get
it back.

Ironic.

I hope some people in the GPL community will give that some thought.
Your license may benefit you, but you could lose friends you need.
The GPL users have an opportunity to 'develop community', to keep an
ethic of sharing alive.

If the Linux developers wrap GPL's around things we worked very hard
on, it will definately not be viewed as community development.

Thank you for thinking about this.

[I ask that one person make sure that one copy of this ends up on the
linux kernel mailing list]

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Jeff Garzik]

Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.

What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?

	Jeff

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff-o2qLIJkoznsdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
>
> What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?

Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
to the original dispute.

That said, I don't see what exact wording you consider inaccurate.

C.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Alan Cox]

> It is illegal to modify a license unless you are the owner/author,
> because it is a legal document.  If there are multiple owners/authors,

Oh dear - Theo, go talk to a lawyer, or do a course on licencing.

The owner generally starts with the rights to control who performs acts
covered by copyright law. They pass some of those rights on to others by
contract, licence or statutory means. It is quite normal for the owner to
pass on the right to relicence or modify the licencing of a work. In many
cases the owner actually hands on all such rights to a third party
(eg an evil music company).

[Owner and author often differ as many legal systems start from the basis
that an employee produces a work for the employer rather than it being
transferred solely by contract]

The ath5k C file in question (not the headers) seems to give recipients
permission to further convey the work under a choice of two licences. It
doesn't say they must redistribute under both. So I appear to have a
right to convey the work under the GPL to a third party, who from me
receives no right to use it except under the GPL. 

The Ath5K C code is very clear about the intention of the licencing:

 * Alternatively, this software may be distributed under the terms of the
 * GNU General Public License ("GPL") version 2 as published by the Free
 * Software Foundation.

The choice appears to be delegated to the recipient very clearly and
very specifically by the licencing on the file. It does not say that I
must convey the work under both licences. It quite specifically says I may
convey the work under whichever of the two I prefer (and probably both if
I wish). Clearly if that had not been the intent it would not have
included the clause giving the choice.

This is quite different to the case Theo tries to discuss.

> In http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/29/183, Alan Cox managed to summarize
> what Jiri Slaby and Luis Rodriguez were trying to do by proposing a
> modification of a Dual Licenced file without the consent of all the
> authors.  Alan asks "So whats the problem ?".  Well, Alan, I must
> caution you -- your post is advising people to break the law.

Re-read my email and then apologize. I do question the .h files where
they are BSD licence and no changes were made to the work. I also point
out that the dual licence on that code appears to give permission to
distribute under one of those licences by choice.

> - If you receive dual licensed code, you may not delete the license
>   you don't like and then distribute it.  It has to stay, because you
>   may not edit someone's else's license -- which is a three-part legal
>   document (For instance: Copyright notice, BSD, followed by GPL).

If you got BSD licenced code that doesn't give you a choice of licence
then of course the original work remains BSD and you can't go around
removing that information, the copyright holder's name and other things
protected variously by different legal systems. I would submit the ath5k
header files fit this (if they are even copyrightable works at all)

> - If you wish for everyone to remain friends, you should give code back.

That's about the first thing I would agree on - its somewhat rude and
not something I personally woul usually choose todo.  However to many
there are problems as the BSD licence doesn't mean giving it back to the
community it means giving a copy to everyone who wants rip it off for
private proprietary use.

>      "Thanks for what you wrote, but this is a one-way street, you give
>      us code, and we take it, we give you you nothing back.  screw off."

The BSD licence allows this. If you in the BSD world don't want that to
happen you need to look hard at your licencing. Linux takes very little
from the BSD world this way, the big one way takers are all proprietary
software companies. Perhaps Theo should write to that nice Bill guy
instead.

> GPL fans said the great problem we would face is that companies would
> take our BSD code, modify it, and not give back.  Nope -- the great
> problem we face is that people would wrap the GPL around our code, and

You just don't realise who takes your code and what they do with it. The
proprietary people don't tell you, but the free ones you can see.

> If the Linux developers wrap GPL's around things we worked very hard
> on, it will definately not be viewed as community development.

So you'd prefer that the Linux developers worked on it and then Microsoft
took the results of all our work and didn't give anything back. At least
if the Linux work is GPL licenced its protected from further abuse. See
the viewpoint the free software people come from - you may not agree with
it but it has a logic.

If OpenBSD wants a world where code must be returned, but you can mix it
with free code in a product in some fashion and do binary only releases
then OpenBSD needs to fix its licencing. Not to GPL which is clearly not
the BSD intention but to something which does what BSD wants rather than
an academic research licence developed thirty odd years ago for the
purpose of showing that US research funds were properly spent. Perhaps
its time for BSD2 licencing ?

Alan

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff-o2qLIJkoznsdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> >
> > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> 
> Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> to the original dispute.

It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD 
people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.

So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this 
dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...

> That said, I don't see what exact wording you consider inaccurate.

Both the FreeBSD and Linux people draw the logical conclusion that this 
"Alternatively" means everyone can always choose to remove one of the 
two choices alternatively offered.

According to Theo, that is "breaking the law"...

> C.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Jacob Meuser]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 09:30:52PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:

> If OpenBSD wants a world where code must be returned

OpenBSD does not want this.

OpenBSD wants a world where people do things because they are the
right thing to do.

OpenBSD lets you decide; it doesn't dictate.

someone poo-poos your decision, well, it was your decision.

someone poo-poos you because you do exactly the thing that you are so
afraid of having happen to you, well, it was your decision.

-- 
jakemsr-VThn6mlTRQFChFL4AGkBsw@public.gmane.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 10:54:57PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org> wrote:
> > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > >
> > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > 
> > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > to the original dispute.

Oh, and if you look at the OpenBSD CVS you see versions 4 months old 
with dozens of contributions by Reyk and with:

/*      $OpenBSD: ath.c,v 1.63 2007/05/09 16:41:14 reyk Exp $  */
/*      $NetBSD: ath.c,v 1.37 2004/08/18 21:59:39 dyoung Exp $        */

/*-
 * Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Sam Leffler, Errno Consulting
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer,
 *    without modification.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce at minimum a disclaimer
 *    similar to the "NO WARRANTY" disclaimer below ("Disclaimer") and any
 *    redistribution must be conditioned upon including a substantially
 *    similar Disclaimer requirement for further binary redistribution.
 * 3. Neither the names of the above-listed copyright holders nor the names
 *    of any contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived
 *    from this software without specific prior written permission.
 *
 * Alternatively, this software may be distributed under the terms of the
 * GNU General Public License ("GPL") version 2 as published by the Free
 * Software Foundation.
 *
 * NO WARRANTY
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS
 * ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT
 * LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTIBILITY
 * AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL
 * THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY,
 * OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF
 * SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS
 * INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER
 * IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
 * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF
 * THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
 */

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff-o2qLIJkoznsdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > >
> > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> >
> > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > to the original dispute.
>
> It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD
> people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.

FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL, which OpenHAL is based on.

FreeBSD has a driver written by Sam, and a binary-only HAL, also written by Sam.

> So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this
> dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...

How? FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL from OpenBSD, so there are
no possible licensing accusations and violations.

> > That said, I don't see what exact wording you consider inaccurate.
>
> Both the FreeBSD and Linux people draw the logical conclusion that this
> "Alternatively" means everyone can always choose to remove one of the
> two choices alternatively offered.
>
> According to Theo, that is "breaking the law"...

FreeBSD's ath(4) code, both the driver and the HAL, is entirely
written by Sam Leffler, who can licence it in whichever way he seems
reasonable. The driver part of Sam's code is also present in OpenBSD,
but the HALs in OpenBSD and FreeBSD are entirely different.

C.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 10:54:57PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org> wrote:
> > > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > > >
> > > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > >
> > > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > > to the original dispute.
>
> Oh, and if you look at the OpenBSD CVS you see versions 4 months old
> with dozens of contributions by Reyk and with:
>
> /*      $OpenBSD: ath.c,v 1.63 2007/05/09 16:41:14 reyk Exp $  */
> /*      $NetBSD: ath.c,v 1.37 2004/08/18 21:59:39 dyoung Exp $        */
>
> /*-
>  * Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Sam Leffler, Errno Consulting
>  * All rights reserved.
>  *
>  * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
>  * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
>  * are met:
>  * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
>  *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer,
>  *    without modification.
>  * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce at minimum a disclaimer
>  *    similar to the "NO WARRANTY" disclaimer below ("Disclaimer") and any
>  *    redistribution must be conditioned upon including a substantially
>  *    similar Disclaimer requirement for further binary redistribution.
>  * 3. Neither the names of the above-listed copyright holders nor the names
>  *    of any contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived
>  *    from this software without specific prior written permission.
>  *
>  * Alternatively, this software may be distributed under the terms of the
>  * GNU General Public License ("GPL") version 2 as published by the Free
>  * Software Foundation.
>  *
>  * NO WARRANTY
>  * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS
>  * ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT
>  * LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTIBILITY
>  * AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL
>  * THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY,
>  * OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF
>  * SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS
>  * INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER
>  * IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
>  * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF
>  * THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
>  */

Where exactly do you see Reyk's copyright in the above quote?

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=ath&sektion=4#AUTHORS

C.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 05:27:03PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org> wrote:
> > > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > > >
> > > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > >
> > > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > > to the original dispute.
> >
> > It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD
> > people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.
> 
> FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL, which OpenHAL is based on.
> 
> FreeBSD has a driver written by Sam, and a binary-only HAL, also written by Sam.
> 
> > So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this
> > dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...
> 
> How? FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL from OpenBSD, so there are
> no possible licensing accusations and violations.

OK, I begin to understand this, there seem to be three different types 
of files changed by Jiri's patch:
1. dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
2. previously dual licenced files with a too recent version used planned 
   to make GPL-only
3. never dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only

For files under 1. and 2. Reyk did contribute to dual licenced code 
without touching the licence, but I missed that there's also code unter 3.

So there is a problem, but not with the code under 1. (unless you plan 
to change the semantics of the word "alternatively"), the problem is 
with some headers under 2. plus the code under 3.

It's funny how Theo missed the part of Jiri's patch that actually is a 
copyright violation and instead complains about the part that is OK...

> > > That said, I don't see what exact wording you consider inaccurate.
> >
> > Both the FreeBSD and Linux people draw the logical conclusion that this
> > "Alternatively" means everyone can always choose to remove one of the
> > two choices alternatively offered.
> >
> > According to Theo, that is "breaking the law"...
> 
> FreeBSD's ath(4) code, both the driver and the HAL, is entirely
> written by Sam Leffler, who can licence it in whichever way he seems
> reasonable. The driver part of Sam's code is also present in OpenBSD,
> but the HALs in OpenBSD and FreeBSD are entirely different.

Sam also changed the licence of a file additionally containing an
  Copyright (c) 2004 Video54 Technologies, Inc.

> C.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Sam Leffler]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
>   
>> On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff-o2qLIJkoznsdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>     
>>> Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
>>>       
>>>> This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
>>>>         
>>> What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
>>>       
>> Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
>> to the original dispute.
>>     
>
> It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD 
> people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.
>
> So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this 
> dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...
>   

Sigh, why actually check the facts when you can make them up.   The code 
in question is my code.  It has my copyright (modulo bits shared with 
onoe-san who was consulted on the switch from dual-bsd/gpl to bsd only 
in freebsd).  Of course what was amusing was how after I changed the 
license on the current code in freebsd certain folks retroactively 
applied the license changes to code that was 3 years old.

But is there a point to all this nonsense?  I dual-licensed the code so 
folks could adopt and use it however they saw fit.  As I've said before 
I don't care what people do with the work I give away so long as they 
don't claim it's their own.

>   
>> That said, I don't see what exact wording you consider inaccurate.
>>     
>
> Both the FreeBSD and Linux people draw the logical conclusion that this 
> "Alternatively" means everyone can always choose to remove one of the 
> two choices alternatively offered.
>
> According to Theo, that is "breaking the law"...
>
>   

I've yet to see "FreeBSD people" speak up so again you're just spouting 
jibberish.  I am speaking up as the author of the code that set the dual 
license in place.  I have the definitive say and I have said that any of 
my code that is dual-licensed can be made gpl only.

    Sam

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 05:51:49PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 10:54:57PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org> wrote:
> > > > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > > > >
> > > > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > > >
> > > > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > > > to the original dispute.
> >
> > Oh, and if you look at the OpenBSD CVS you see versions 4 months old
> > with dozens of contributions by Reyk and with:
> >
> > /*      $OpenBSD: ath.c,v 1.63 2007/05/09 16:41:14 reyk Exp $  */
> > /*      $NetBSD: ath.c,v 1.37 2004/08/18 21:59:39 dyoung Exp $        */
> >
> > /*-
> >  * Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Sam Leffler, Errno Consulting
> >  * All rights reserved.
> >  *
> >  * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
> >  * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
> >  * are met:
> >  * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
> >  *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer,
> >  *    without modification.
> >  * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce at minimum a disclaimer
> >  *    similar to the "NO WARRANTY" disclaimer below ("Disclaimer") and any
> >  *    redistribution must be conditioned upon including a substantially
> >  *    similar Disclaimer requirement for further binary redistribution.
> >  * 3. Neither the names of the above-listed copyright holders nor the names
> >  *    of any contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived
> >  *    from this software without specific prior written permission.
> >  *
> >  * Alternatively, this software may be distributed under the terms of the
> >  * GNU General Public License ("GPL") version 2 as published by the Free
> >  * Software Foundation.
> >  *
> >  * NO WARRANTY
> >  * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS
> >  * ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT
> >  * LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTIBILITY
> >  * AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL
> >  * THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY,
> >  * OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF
> >  * SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS
> >  * INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER
> >  * IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
> >  * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF
> >  * THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
> >  */
> 
> Where exactly do you see Reyk's copyright in the above quote?
>...

He has automatically a copyright on his contributions if they are 
non-trivial.

> C.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 03:03:36PM -0700, Sam Leffler wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
>>   
>>> On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff-o2qLIJkoznsdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>     
>>>> Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
>>>>       
>>>>> This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code 
>>>>> licensing.
>>>>>         
>>>> What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
>>>>       
>>> Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
>>> to the original dispute.
>>>     
>>
>> It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD 
>> people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.
>>
>> So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this 
>> dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...
>>   
>
> Sigh, why actually check the facts when you can make them up.   The code in 
> question is my code.  It has my copyright (modulo bits shared with onoe-san 
> who was consulted on the switch from dual-bsd/gpl to bsd only in freebsd).  

The latter is the code by Video54 Technologies?

> Of course what was amusing was how after I changed the license on the 
> current code in freebsd certain folks retroactively applied the license 
> changes to code that was 3 years old.
>
> But is there a point to all this nonsense?  I dual-licensed the code so 
> folks could adopt and use it however they saw fit.  As I've said before I 
> don't care what people do with the work I give away so long as they don't 
> claim it's their own.

Fully agreed.  :-)

>>> That said, I don't see what exact wording you consider inaccurate.
>>>     
>>
>> Both the FreeBSD and Linux people draw the logical conclusion that this 
>> "Alternatively" means everyone can always choose to remove one of the two 
>> choices alternatively offered.
>>
>> According to Theo, that is "breaking the law"...
>
> I've yet to see "FreeBSD people" speak up so again you're just spouting 
> jibberish.  I am speaking up as the author of the code that set the dual 
> license in place.  I have the definitive say and I have said that any of my 
> code that is dual-licensed can be made gpl only.

Sorry, this has been a thinko on my side:

If noone except you and onoe-san made any contributions to this code 
that were non-trivial enough for automatically giving its author a 
copyright on his contributions (whatever this means in various 
jurisdictions...) it was indeed an author-only change.

>    Sam

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 05:27:03PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org> wrote:
> > > > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > > > >
> > > > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > > >
> > > > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > > > to the original dispute.
> > >
> > > It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD
> > > people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.
> >
> > FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL, which OpenHAL is based on.
> >
> > FreeBSD has a driver written by Sam, and a binary-only HAL, also written by Sam.
> >
> > > So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this
> > > dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...
> >
> > How? FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL from OpenBSD, so there are
> > no possible licensing accusations and violations.
>
> OK, I begin to understand this, there seem to be three different types
> of files changed by Jiri's patch:
> 1. dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
> 2. previously dual licenced files with a too recent version used planned
>    to make GPL-only
> 3. never dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
>
> For files under 1. and 2. Reyk did contribute to dual licenced code
> without touching the licence, but I missed that there's also code unter 3.
>
> So there is a problem, but not with the code under 1. (unless you plan
> to change the semantics of the word "alternatively"), the problem is
> with some headers under 2. plus the code under 3.
>
> It's funny how Theo missed the part of Jiri's patch that actually is a
> copyright violation and instead complains about the part that is OK...

I'm not sure how you conclude that Theo missed the relevant parts --
there were many messages posted to misc@openbsd.org mailing list and
to The OpenBSD Journal in the last few days, and to me it appears as
all of the problems were discussed ad nauseam.

After the obvious copyright violations were addressed, I think the
problem started being an ethical one.

As a free software user and developer, the question I have is how come
the Linux community feels that they can take the BSD code that was
reverse-engineered at OpenBSD, and put a more restrictive licence onto
it, such that there will be no possibility of the changes going back
to OpenBSD, given that the main work on the code has happened at
OpenBSD? (Obviously, such a scenario it is permitted by the licence,
but my question is an ethical one -- after all, most components of
OpenHAL were specifically based on the OpenBSD's ath(4) HAL code.)

You can see that Christoph Hellwig agrees with this ethical problem,
as in the message below.

C.


On 28/08/07, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 12:00:50PM -0400, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> > ath5k, license is GPLv2
> >
> > The files are available only under GPLv2 since now.
>
> Is this really a good idea?  Most of the reverse-engineering was
> done by the OpenBSD folks, and it would certainly be helpful to
> work together with them on new hardware revisions, etc..

( from http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/28/178 )

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

I urge developers to not bait into this and just leave this alone.
Those involved know what they are doing and have a strong team of
attorneys watching their backs. Any *necessary* discussions are be
done privately.

  Luis

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Bob Beck]

>As a free software user and developer, the question I have is how come
>the Linux community feels that they can take the BSD code that was
>reverse-engineered at OpenBSD, and put a more restrictive licence onto
>it, such that there will be no possibility of the changes going back
>to OpenBSD, given that the main work on the code has happened at
>OpenBSD? (Obviously, such a scenario it is permitted by the licence,
>but my question is an ethical one -- after all, most components of
>OpenHAL were specifically based on the OpenBSD's ath(4) HAL code.)
>
>You can see that Christoph Hellwig agrees with this ethical problem,
>as in the message below.
>
>C.
>
>
>>On 28/08/07, Christoph Hellwig <hch-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 12:00:50PM -0400, Jiri Slaby wrote:
>> > ath5k, license is GPLv2
>> >
>> > The files are available only under GPLv2 since now.
>>
>> Is this really a good idea?  Most of the reverse-engineering was
>> done by the OpenBSD folks, and it would certainly be helpful to
>> work together with them on new hardware revisions, etc..

I couldn't agree more. The point is, while we BSD license fans know and
expect people from private industry to take our stuff and use it, at
least private industry does not come to the table with "hey, let's
cooperate" - we know who the corporate whores are, and we act accordingly. 

However, when a linux developer comes to us and say "hey lets cooperate"
usually there is a thought of "this is a kindred spirit who understands
what our mutual goals are and won't stab us in the back".  My concern
is that this situation will change if this is not rectified. 

I think the community needs to decide, should cooperation be based on
morals and trust, or does the Linux community need to be regarded with
less trust than a Corporation, something to be avoided, as while
corporations can be counted on to act without morals, the knife is up
front and visible. They do not come to you with one hand of
cooperation extended and a knife kept behind their back.

 -Bob 

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 07:29:39PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 05:27:03PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff-o2qLIJkoznsdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > > > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > > > >
> > > > > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > > > > to the original dispute.
> > > >
> > > > It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD
> > > > people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.
> > >
> > > FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL, which OpenHAL is based on.
> > >
> > > FreeBSD has a driver written by Sam, and a binary-only HAL, also written by Sam.
> > >
> > > > So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this
> > > > dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...
> > >
> > > How? FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL from OpenBSD, so there are
> > > no possible licensing accusations and violations.
> >
> > OK, I begin to understand this, there seem to be three different types
> > of files changed by Jiri's patch:
> > 1. dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
> > 2. previously dual licenced files with a too recent version used planned
> >    to make GPL-only
> > 3. never dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
> >
> > For files under 1. and 2. Reyk did contribute to dual licenced code
> > without touching the licence, but I missed that there's also code unter 3.
> >
> > So there is a problem, but not with the code under 1. (unless you plan
> > to change the semantics of the word "alternatively"), the problem is
> > with some headers under 2. plus the code under 3.
> >
> > It's funny how Theo missed the part of Jiri's patch that actually is a
> > copyright violation and instead complains about the part that is OK...
> 
> I'm not sure how you conclude that Theo missed the relevant parts --
> there were many messages posted to misc-7YlrpqBBQ3VAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org mailing list and
> to The OpenBSD Journal in the last few days, and to me it appears as
> all of the problems were discussed ad nauseam.
>...

Then it's your fault that you forwarded the wrong email - in the email 
you forwarded the only action for which Theo accused the Linux 
developers of breaking the law was for choosing one licence when using 
dual licenced code.

> After the obvious copyright violations were addressed, I think the
> problem started being an ethical one.
> 
> As a free software user and developer, the question I have is how come
> the Linux community feels that they can take the BSD code that was
> reverse-engineered at OpenBSD, and put a more restrictive licence onto
> it, such that there will be no possibility of the changes going back
> to OpenBSD, given that the main work on the code has happened at
> OpenBSD? (Obviously, such a scenario it is permitted by the licence,
> but my question is an ethical one -- after all, most components of
> OpenHAL were specifically based on the OpenBSD's ath(4) HAL code.)
> 
> You can see that Christoph Hellwig agrees with this ethical problem,
> as in the message below.

Is it a legal problem or is it "only" an ethical problem?

If choosing one licence when using dual licenced code is not a legal 
problem then Theo repeatedly talking about it would "break the law" in 
the email you forwarded was very unethical and the worst he could do
for his cause.

> C.
>...

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Luis R. Rodriguez <mcgrof-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I urge developers to not bait into this and just leave this alone.
> Those involved know what they are doing and have a strong team of
> attorneys watching their backs. Any *necessary* discussions are be
> done privately.

Err...

I don't understand why you need a lawyer to interpret this document:

/*     $OpenBSD: ar5210.c,v 1.39 2007/04/10 17:47:55 miod Exp $        */

/*
 * Copyright (c) 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 Reyk Floeter <reyk-7YlrpqBBQ3VAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>
 *
 * Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any
 * purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above
 * copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.
 *
 * THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES
 * WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
 * MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR
 * ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES
 * WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN
 * ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF
 * OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
 */

If you want to add more code to it, and your contribution is
significant, simply add you name next to Reyk's. Where's the problem?

I don't know how licensing could be any simpler than this. Please,
notice, that there are no additional documents (other than the
copyright law) to read here -- _this is the complete licence_! (And
you have to read the copyright law even if you use the GNU GPL.)

C.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Theo de Raadt]

When companies have taken our wireless device drivers, many many of
them have given changes and fixes back.  Some maybe didn't, but that
is OK.

When Linux took our changes back, they immediately locked the door
against changes moving back, by putting a GPL license on guard.

Why does our brother Linux take a file that is 90% BSD licensed,
and refuse to let us see the 10% he adds?

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 07:29:39PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 05:27:03PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > On 01/09/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 01:37:18PM -0400, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > > On 01/09/07, Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> > > > > > > > This will hopefully help diminish certain myths about the code licensing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What myth?  The myth that Theo understands dual licensing?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reyk's code was never dual licensed, so it's not like it even matters
> > > > > > to the original dispute.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's no longer dual licenced in the FreeBSD tree because the FreeBSD
> > > > > people removed the GPL choice of the dual licenced code 3 months ago.
> > > >
> > > > FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL, which OpenHAL is based on.
> > > >
> > > > FreeBSD has a driver written by Sam, and a binary-only HAL, also written by Sam.
> > > >
> > > > > So all of Theo's accusations of people breaking the law by making this
> > > > > dual licenced code GPL-only apply as well to the FreeBSD people...
> > > >
> > > > How? FreeBSD doesn't have Reyk's ath(4) HAL from OpenBSD, so there are
> > > > no possible licensing accusations and violations.
> > >
> > > OK, I begin to understand this, there seem to be three different types
> > > of files changed by Jiri's patch:
> > > 1. dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
> > > 2. previously dual licenced files with a too recent version used planned
> > >    to make GPL-only
> > > 3. never dual licenced files planned to make GPL-only
> > >
> > > For files under 1. and 2. Reyk did contribute to dual licenced code
> > > without touching the licence, but I missed that there's also code unter 3.
> > >
> > > So there is a problem, but not with the code under 1. (unless you plan
> > > to change the semantics of the word "alternatively"), the problem is
> > > with some headers under 2. plus the code under 3.
> > >
> > > It's funny how Theo missed the part of Jiri's patch that actually is a
> > > copyright violation and instead complains about the part that is OK...
> >
> > I'm not sure how you conclude that Theo missed the relevant parts --
> > there were many messages posted to misc@openbsd.org mailing list and
> > to The OpenBSD Journal in the last few days, and to me it appears as
> > all of the problems were discussed ad nauseam.
> >...
>
> Then it's your fault that you forwarded the wrong email - in the email
> you forwarded the only action for which Theo accused the Linux
> developers of breaking the law was for choosing one licence when using
> dual licenced code.

For the sake of the discussion, at the time I forwarded the message,
the obvious licensing problems (e.g. the original infamous patch by
Jiri) were already addressed.

Personally, these problems were so obvious -- entirely changing the
licence under Reyk's Copyright notice -- that I didn't even take them
for real when they first came across.

BTW, I've now once again re-read the original message that I've
forwarded, and it does contain Theo's reiteration of his response that
the original re-licensing patch had clear violations. E.g. re-read
this part of his message:

- If you receive ISC or BSD licensed code, you may not delete the
 license.  Same principle, since the notice says so.  It's the law.
 Really.

> > After the obvious copyright violations were addressed, I think the
> > problem started being an ethical one.
> >
> > As a free software user and developer, the question I have is how come
> > the Linux community feels that they can take the BSD code that was
> > reverse-engineered at OpenBSD, and put a more restrictive licence onto
> > it, such that there will be no possibility of the changes going back
> > to OpenBSD, given that the main work on the code has happened at
> > OpenBSD? (Obviously, such a scenario it is permitted by the licence,
> > but my question is an ethical one -- after all, most components of
> > OpenHAL were specifically based on the OpenBSD's ath(4) HAL code.)
> >
> > You can see that Christoph Hellwig agrees with this ethical problem,
> > as in the message below.
>
> Is it a legal problem or is it "only" an ethical problem?

I don't particularly like to repeat myself -- after the obvious
licensing issues were addressed, it has indeed become an ethical
problem: why do you think that you as the Linux community has to act
ruder to the *BSD community than the supposed corporations that we
always hear about in the BSD/GPL licensing arguments?

I really like the response that Bob Beck gave on this question:
http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/9/1/197

> If choosing one licence when using dual licenced code is not a legal
> problem then Theo repeatedly talking about it would "break the law" in
> the email you forwarded was very unethical and the worst he could do
> for his cause.

My understanding is that with dual-licensed code, you choose to comply
with all of the terms of either licence. However, you cannot simply
remove either of these licences from the code, unless you specifically
receive such right from the copyright holder (remember, with the
copyright law, unless the rights are specifically given, they are
retained). This is what Theo was trying to educate the community on. I
don't see anything unethical in explaining the legal issues.

Constantine.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 06:36:36PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> When companies have taken our wireless device drivers, many many of
> them have given changes and fixes back.  Some maybe didn't, but that
> is OK.
> 
> When Linux took our changes back, they immediately locked the door
> against changes moving back, by putting a GPL license on guard.
> 
> Why does our brother Linux take a file that is 90% BSD licensed,
> and refuse to let us see the 10% he adds?

Theo, the primary claim you made in your email that was forwarded to 
linux-kernel was:

<--  snip  -->

In http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/29/183, Alan Cox managed to summarize
what Jiri Slaby and Luis Rodriguez were trying to do by proposing a
modification of a Dual Licenced file without the consent of all the
authors.  Alan asks "So whats the problem ?".  Well, Alan, I must
caution you -- your post is advising people to break the law.

<--  snip  -->

It is a quite heavy accusation against Alan that saying it was OK to 
change dual licenced code to one of the offered licences would advise
to break the law.

There's nothing about goodwill or other ethical questions in your 
statement, this statement you made can be verified or falsified by 
lawyers.

If it is true, all ethical questions about this are anyway moot because 
it was illegal as you claim.

If you wrongly accused Alan, you owe Alan an apology.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 06:02:26PM -0600, Bob Beck wrote:
> >As a free software user and developer, the question I have is how come
> >the Linux community feels that they can take the BSD code that was
> >reverse-engineered at OpenBSD, and put a more restrictive licence onto
> >it, such that there will be no possibility of the changes going back
> >to OpenBSD, given that the main work on the code has happened at
> >OpenBSD? (Obviously, such a scenario it is permitted by the licence,
> >but my question is an ethical one -- after all, most components of
> >OpenHAL were specifically based on the OpenBSD's ath(4) HAL code.)
> >
> >You can see that Christoph Hellwig agrees with this ethical problem,
> >as in the message below.
> >
> >C.
> >
> >
> >>On 28/08/07, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org> wrote:
> >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 12:00:50PM -0400, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> >> > ath5k, license is GPLv2
> >> >
> >> > The files are available only under GPLv2 since now.
> >>
> >> Is this really a good idea?  Most of the reverse-engineering was
> >> done by the OpenBSD folks, and it would certainly be helpful to
> >> work together with them on new hardware revisions, etc..
> 
> I couldn't agree more. The point is, while we BSD license fans know and
> expect people from private industry to take our stuff and use it, at
> least private industry does not come to the table with "hey, let's
> cooperate" - we know who the corporate whores are, and we act accordingly. 
> 
> However, when a linux developer comes to us and say "hey lets cooperate"
> usually there is a thought of "this is a kindred spirit who understands
> what our mutual goals are and won't stab us in the back".  My concern
> is that this situation will change if this is not rectified. 
> 
> I think the community needs to decide, should cooperation be based on
> morals and trust, or does the Linux community need to be regarded with
> less trust than a Corporation, something to be avoided, as while
> corporations can be counted on to act without morals, the knife is up
> front and visible. They do not come to you with one hand of
> cooperation extended and a knife kept behind their back.

Theo explicitely accused Alan that telling people that it was OK to 
choose one licence for dual licenced code was "advising people to break 
the law".

I hope you agree when talking about "cooperation [...] based on morals 
and trust" that such accusations should either be proven correct or the 
moral position of the person who made such accusations becomes quiet 
weak.

>  -Bob 

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 01/09/07, Theo de Raadt <deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> When companies have taken our wireless device drivers, many many of
> them have given changes and fixes back.  Some maybe didn't, but that
> is OK.
>
> When Linux took our changes back, they immediately locked the door
> against changes moving back, by putting a GPL license on guard.
>
> Why does our brother Linux take a file that is 90% BSD licensed,
> and refuse to let us see the 10% he adds?

Indeed, it's upsetting that people like Luis Rodriguez push for the
lawyers to be involved to (fight?) an open source project. Why, may I
ask?

Why Luis puts the phrase "legal hell" next to entirely free software?
[0] Why is he trying to go against the BSD community, which gave him
the entire HAL framework for the driver in question?

Best regards,
Constantine.

[0] http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=118857712529898&w=2

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Jeff Garzik]

Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> Indeed, it's upsetting that people like Luis Rodriguez push for the
> lawyers to be involved to (fight?) an open source project. Why, may I
> ask?


Is it not self-evident?  Legal review is the sane course of action, when 
legal issues are the bone of contention.

That said, Linux people are far more pragmatic than FSF people, and 
often disagree with the FSF.  I would not take an FSF lawyer's word as 
Gospel.

Theo manages to confuse "Linux" and "FSF" quite often, but that's 
characteristic of his muddled thinking and inexperience.

	Jeff

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Alan Cox]

> - If you receive ISC or BSD licensed code, you may not delete the
>  license.  Same principle, since the notice says so.  It's the law.
>  Really.

You can shout this all you like but you would be wrong. You can remove
the licence if you have permission to do so. For the ath c files there
was permission to do so.

> My understanding is that with dual-licensed code, you choose to comply
> with all of the terms of either licence. However, you cannot simply
> remove either of these licences from the code, unless you specifically
> receive such right from the copyright holder (remember, with the
> copyright law, unless the rights are specifically given, they are
> retained). This is what Theo was trying to educate the community on. I
> don't see anything unethical in explaining the legal issues.

Your understanding isn't quite right. One of many things you may get with
dual licensed code is the right to pick a licence from several choices,
you may also get the right to remove some choices from the recipient.

A work that combines GPL and BSD licensed material is not the same as a
work which says I may choose between two licences. If both licences must
always apply (which is a perfectly possible condition to put in a
licence) then putting such a "both" GPL/BSD licence piece of code into
OpenBSD would require any OpenBSD distributed containing it was GPL
licenced when conveyed, which I am *very* sure is not the intent.

Thus what you appear to be doing by putting the ath5k C code in OpenBSD is
conveying it under the BSD licence (making a choice between the two
offered) and conveying a right for parties down the chain to convey it
under one of the licences only.

And as we've already established the header files are quite different.


Doesn't mean its not somewhat rude but illegal and rude are two very
different things.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Igor Sobrado]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Alan Cox wrote:
> You can shout this all you like but you would be wrong. You can remove
> the licence if you have permission to do so. For the ath c files there
> was permission to do so.

There was permission to do so from Reyk Floeter?  Really?

> Your understanding isn't quite right. One of many things you may get with
> dual licensed code is the right to pick a licence from several choices,
> you may also get the right to remove some choices from the recipient.

Reyk code was never dual licensed!  His code is under truly free 
licensing terms (BSD).

> A work that combines GPL and BSD licensed material is not the same as a
> work which says I may choose between two licences. If both licences must
> always apply (which is a perfectly possible condition to put in a
> licence) then putting such a "both" GPL/BSD licence piece of code into
> OpenBSD would require any OpenBSD distributed containing it was GPL
> licenced when conveyed, which I am *very* sure is not the intent.
>
> Thus what you appear to be doing by putting the ath5k C code in OpenBSD is
> conveying it under the BSD licence (making a choice between the two
> offered) and conveying a right for parties down the chain to convey it
> under one of the licences only.

I think that Theo explained this point clearly quite a few times in the 
last days.

> And as we've already established the header files are quite different.

Is a simple change in the header files a reason to vindicate the people 
that changed the licensing terms?  Obviously, it isn't.

> Doesn't mean its not somewhat rude but illegal and rude are two very
> different things.

No, because this change is both rude and illegal.

Igor

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Sep 1 2007 18:36, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>
>When companies have taken our wireless device drivers, many many of
>them have given changes and fixes back.  Some maybe didn't, but that
>is OK.

For companies it's ok, but for linux people it is not?

(1) You do not know how much of the modifications companies did
    are actually returned

(2) You do not know whether the ath5k linux part authors will
    give back at a later point (much like companies)

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 01:20:27PM +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Alan Cox wrote:
>> You can shout this all you like but you would be wrong. You can remove
>> the licence if you have permission to do so. For the ath c files there
>> was permission to do so.
>
> There was permission to do so from Reyk Floeter?  Really?
>
>> Your understanding isn't quite right. One of many things you may get with
>> dual licensed code is the right to pick a licence from several choices,
>> you may also get the right to remove some choices from the recipient.
>
> Reyk code was never dual licensed!  His code is under truly free licensing 
> terms (BSD).

Jiri's patch touched both files containing BSD-only code by Reyk and 
code Reyk contributed to leaving the file dual licenced.

>> A work that combines GPL and BSD licensed material is not the same as a
>> work which says I may choose between two licences. If both licences must
>> always apply (which is a perfectly possible condition to put in a
>> licence) then putting such a "both" GPL/BSD licence piece of code into
>> OpenBSD would require any OpenBSD distributed containing it was GPL
>> licenced when conveyed, which I am *very* sure is not the intent.
>>
>> Thus what you appear to be doing by putting the ath5k C code in OpenBSD is
>> conveying it under the BSD licence (making a choice between the two
>> offered) and conveying a right for parties down the chain to convey it
>> under one of the licences only.
>
> I think that Theo explained this point clearly quite a few times in the 
> last days.
>
>> And as we've already established the header files are quite different.
>
> Is a simple change in the header files a reason to vindicate the people 
> that changed the licensing terms?  Obviously, it isn't.
>
>> Doesn't mean its not somewhat rude but illegal and rude are two very
>> different things.
>
> No, because this change is both rude and illegal.

You mixed two completely different things in your email:

1. Jiri's patch (that was never merged into Linux) not only removed the 
   BSD header from dual licenced files but also from not dual licenced
   files.

2. Theo accused Alan that telling people that it was OK to choose one 
   licence for dual licenced code was "advising people to break the law".

Jiri's patch was legally not OK regarding 1. - there's no discussion 
regarding this.

The point 2 is what the email of Theo that was forwarded to linux-kernel 
is about and what the discussion is about. That's quite a rude action 
by Theo unless he's able to prove that this accusation is correct.

> Igor

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Igor Sobrado]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 01:20:27PM +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
>> Reyk code was never dual licensed!  His code is under truly free licensing
>> terms (BSD).
>
> Jiri's patch touched both files containing BSD-only code by Reyk and
> code Reyk contributed to leaving the file dual licenced.

Ok.

> You mixed two completely different things in your email:
>
> 1. Jiri's patch (that was never merged into Linux) not only removed the
>   BSD header from dual licenced files but also from not dual licenced
>   files.
>
> 2. Theo accused Alan that telling people that it was OK to choose one
>   licence for dual licenced code was "advising people to break the law".
>
> Jiri's patch was legally not OK regarding 1. - there's no discussion
> regarding this.
>
> The point 2 is what the email of Theo that was forwarded to linux-kernel
> is about and what the discussion is about. That's quite a rude action
> by Theo unless he's able to prove that this accusation is correct.

When code is multi-licensed it must be distributed under *all* these 
licensing terms concurrently.  It is easy to understand.  Removing (or 
changing) the conditions that apply to the program from the source code 
and documentation *without* an authorization from all the author(s) is 
illegal.

So, a multi-licensed file remains multi-licensed except when all authors 
agree about a change in the licensing terms.  And it is clear on the BSD 
license that a modification of the distribution terms is illegal.  It is 
the first clause on the BSD license:

  * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
  *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer,
  *    without modification.

So, removing (or changing) the list of conditions on the BSD license is 
not allowed.

Igor.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Alan Cox]

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 (CEST)
Igor Sobrado <igor@condmat1.ciencias.uniovi.es> wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Alan Cox wrote:
> > You can shout this all you like but you would be wrong. You can remove
> > the licence if you have permission to do so. For the ath c files there
> > was permission to do so.
> 
> There was permission to do so from Reyk Floeter?  Really?

The code pieces I quoted contained that choice. As far as I am concerned
that is what the discussion was about. 

Alan

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Jeff Garzik]

Igor Sobrado wrote:
> When code is multi-licensed it must be distributed under *all* these 
> licensing terms concurrently.  It is easy to understand.  Removing (or 
> changing) the conditions that apply to the program from the source code 
> and documentation *without* an authorization from all the author(s) is 
> illegal.


The plain English in the dual-license text directly contradicts this 
fiction.

	Jeff

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Alan Cox]

> So, a multi-licensed file remains multi-licensed except when all authors 
> agree about a change in the licensing terms.  And it is clear on the BSD 

Not strictly true. They can either agree to a change and issue one or
they can convey to other parties the right to change the terms. The GPL
for example does this for version selection.

A multi-licensed work (note work not file - don't assume a file is a
boundary of a work) which conveys the choice of licence (as some bits of
ath5k did) allows a receiving party to choose the licence it wishes.
Failing that OpenBSD would have turned itself GPL by adding that file as
according to your argument "it must be distributed under *all* these
licensing terms concurrently".

Alan

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Igor Sobrado]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Alan Cox wrote:

>> So, a multi-licensed file remains multi-licensed except when all authors
>> agree about a change in the licensing terms.  And it is clear on the BSD
>
> Not strictly true. They can either agree to a change and issue one or
> they can convey to other parties the right to change the terms. The GPL
> for example does this for version selection.

So, under a dual-licensed BSD/GPL code the latter license allows a 
developer to remove the GPL license itself and release a single-licensed 
BSD code if other parties want to do it?

> A multi-licensed work (note work not file - don't assume a file is a
> boundary of a work) which conveys the choice of licence (as some bits of
> ath5k did) allows a receiving party to choose the licence it wishes.
> Failing that OpenBSD would have turned itself GPL by adding that file as
> according to your argument "it must be distributed under *all* these
> licensing terms concurrently".

I would assume a file as a boundary of a work in the case that file is 
under different licensing terms to the rest of the software package.  On a 
lot of software packages different modules are covered under different 
licensing terms.

We can choose what license terms we will honor; however, we do not have 
the ability to remove the licensing terms we do not like.

Igor.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 03:00:46PM +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Alan Cox wrote:
>
>>> So, a multi-licensed file remains multi-licensed except when all authors
>>> agree about a change in the licensing terms.  And it is clear on the BSD
>>
>> Not strictly true. They can either agree to a change and issue one or
>> they can convey to other parties the right to change the terms. The GPL
>> for example does this for version selection.
>
> So, under a dual-licensed BSD/GPL code the latter license allows a 
> developer to remove the GPL license itself and release a single-licensed 
> BSD code if other parties want to do it?


Exactly.


>> A multi-licensed work (note work not file - don't assume a file is a
>> boundary of a work) which conveys the choice of licence (as some bits of
>> ath5k did) allows a receiving party to choose the licence it wishes.
>> Failing that OpenBSD would have turned itself GPL by adding that file as
>> according to your argument "it must be distributed under *all* these
>> licensing terms concurrently".
>
> I would assume a file as a boundary of a work in the case that file is 
> under different licensing terms to the rest of the software package.  On a 
> lot of software packages different modules are covered under different 
> licensing terms.
>
> We can choose what license terms we will honor; however, we do not have the 
> ability to remove the licensing terms we do not like.


We have the ability if the author explicitely allowed it.

This is the licencing text we are talking about:


/*-
 * Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Sam Leffler, Errno Consulting
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer,
 *    without modification.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce at minimum a disclaimer
 *    similar to the "NO WARRANTY" disclaimer below ("Disclaimer") and any
 *    redistribution must be conditioned upon including a substantially
 *    similar Disclaimer requirement for further binary redistribution.
 * 3. Neither the names of the above-listed copyright holders nor the names
 *    of any contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived
 *    from this software without specific prior written permission.
 *
 * Alternatively, this software may be distributed under the terms of the
 * GNU General Public License ("GPL") version 2 as published by the Free
 * Software Foundation.
 *
 * NO WARRANTY
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS
 * ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT
 * LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTIBILITY
 * AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL
 * THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY,
 * OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF
 * SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS
 * INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER
 * IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
 * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF
 * THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
 */


The author himself offered two _alternatives_ for distributing his code.


> Igor.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Alan Cox]

> > Not strictly true. They can either agree to a change and issue one or
> > they can convey to other parties the right to change the terms. The GPL
> > for example does this for version selection.
> 
> So, under a dual-licensed BSD/GPL code the latter license allows a 
> developer to remove the GPL license itself and release a single-licensed 
> BSD code if other parties want to do it?

If the dual licence permits you to select from two alternatives as
appears to be the case in

"* Alternatively, this software may be distributed under the terms of the
 * GNU General Public License ("GPL") version 2 as published by the Free
 * Software Foundation."

Then there is no problem in doing exactly what it says and distributing
it under the terms of the GPL v2 and the GPL v2 alone (or indeed the BSD
licence alone). Anyone who took the project code and produced a binary
only proprietary product from it would for example select the BSD licence
alone and convey almost no rights at all to their customer.

> I would assume a file as a boundary of a work in the case that file is 
> under different licensing terms to the rest of the software package.  On a 

Assuming is bad, you should consult caselaw.

> lot of software packages different modules are covered under different 
> licensing terms.
> 
> We can choose what license terms we will honor; however, we do not have 
> the ability to remove the licensing terms we do not like.

If the author has conveyed that right to you, then you may usually do so.

Alan

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Krzysztof Halasa]

IANAL, but:

Igor Sobrado <igor-wnk7FUYfzmtu2DZcH3qp6zJQgOOX0AMFMQBsIrBqeMw@public.gmane.org> writes:

> So, under a dual-licensed BSD/GPL code the latter license allows a
> developer to remove the GPL license itself and release a
> single-licensed BSD code if other parties want to do it?

Of course. If it wasn't legal, dual BSD/GPL would just be equal
to GPL. Now, dual BSD/GPL equals BSD.

OTOH I'd probable leave the original licence text, something like:

The actual licence conditions:
GPL or BSD or whatever.

Portions of this file were licenced under:
[the original licence text, not valid as a licence for current file]


WRT Atheros driver I'd probably leave the thing as is (i.e., BSD/GPL
= in fact BSD), unless something like 50+% of the code is rewritten -
it's mostly their hard work after all, isn't it? Not legal
requirement, though.
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Jeff Garzik]

Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> WRT Atheros driver I'd probably leave the thing as is (i.e., BSD/GPL
> = in fact BSD), unless something like 50+% of the code is rewritten -
> it's mostly their hard work after all, isn't it? Not legal
> requirement, though.

Yes.  This deserves to be reinforced:

There is definite value in sharing the ath5k HAL between OpenBSD and Linux.

	Jeff

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Bodo Eggert]

Igor Sobrado <igor@condmat1.ciencias.uniovi.es> wrote:

> When code is multi-licensed it must be distributed under *all* these
> licensing terms concurrently.

No. E.g.:

If I don't agree to the GPL (or if I had violated it and therefore have lost
it's privileges), I MUST NOT redistribute it under the GPL because I have no
license to do that, but the BSD license would still allow me to redistribute.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Igor Sobrado]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote:

> Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
>>  WRT Atheros driver I'd probably leave the thing as is (i.e., BSD/GPL
>>  = in fact BSD), unless something like 50+% of the code is rewritten -
>>  it's mostly their hard work after all, isn't it? Not legal
>>  requirement, though.
>
> Yes.  This deserves to be reinforced:
>
> There is definite value in sharing the ath5k HAL between OpenBSD and Linux.

Of course.  Sharing knowledge and efforts can only improve both the GPL 
and BSD licensed code.  It is important in all cases, but becomes critical 
when support from manufacturers is limited or even non existent.  In these 
cases, shared efforts are required to write successful code.

Cheers,
Igor.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Al Viro]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 03:00:46PM +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
> >Not strictly true. They can either agree to a change and issue one or
> >they can convey to other parties the right to change the terms. The GPL
> >for example does this for version selection.
> 
> So, under a dual-licensed BSD/GPL code the latter license allows a 
> developer to remove the GPL license itself and release a single-licensed 
> BSD code if other parties want to do it?

Exactly.  That's what dual-licensing is.

[quote]
This is no different from the fact that we have some drivers that are
GPLv2/BSD licensed. Within the kernel, they are GPLv2. But on their own, 
you can choose to use them under the BSD license, make your changes to
them, and release them commercially.
And correct - I cannot (and neither can anybody else) then accept those
*non*GPLv2 changes back.
[end quote]

That's from Linus and quite recently.

FWIW, it's damn hard to codify "... and changes to this code should not
change the situation".  It's certainly a very good policy and in this
case it's the only sane policy.

[quote]
Actually, normally I *do* have such a trust. It's why I have no problem
with drivers that are dual-GPL/BSD, and in fact, I've told people that I
don't want them to turn them into GPL-only, because that is simply not   
polite.
[end quote]

Same posting from Linus.  And that's much more relevant to shooting the patch
in question down (and IMO it ought to be shot down) than references to
legality.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[Matthew Jacob]

This has been pretty interesting for me to watch as I distribute my
isp driver under a dual license (at least the portions of it which are
common with the *BSD and Solaris ports)  that is almost identical to
Sam's verbiage.

I'll admit that I hadn't thought about whether redistribution included
the ability to modify the header (and thus the text of the licensing
as I had written) or not. On balance I'd say I believe that the
arguments for, on redistribution, picking one or the other license
makes sense and honored my general intent.

This allows people who modify the code (and presumably improve it) a
"chef's choice" based on where they're serving the meal.

IANAL, but I believe that none of this keeps me from continuing to put
a dual license on stuff I leave up for distribution, or changing that
to restricting the code to Martian Triathalon winners or what have
you.

Re: Fwd: That whole "Linux stealing our code" thing

[David H. Lynch Jr.]

Igor Sobrado wrote:
>>
>> There is definite value in sharing the ath5k HAL between OpenBSD and 
>> Linux.
>
> Of course. Sharing knowledge and efforts can only improve both the GPL 
> and BSD licensed code. It is important in all cases, but becomes 
> critical when support from manufacturers is limited or even non existent.

Cooperation between OpenBSD developers and Linux developers, wwould be 
wonderful, but this appears to just be the latest of a number of 
disputes that have devolved into legalism and acrimony.

The time wasted fighting over this seems significantly larger than the 
effort need to solve it.

The respective BSD and GPL licensed code is open documentation for the 
programming of the typically closed device.
What is wrong with chosing to rewrite the drivers in contention ?
If the level of bile is sufficiently high it might make sense to do so 
using "clean room" techniques, where one developer uses the source 
licensed driver as the basis for writing documentation
and another developer uses the documentation as the basis for writing a 
new driver. The original author could/should still be credited.

It might even make sense to use projects like this as a means of 
recruiting new driver developers and building their skills - drafting 
prospective kernel developers from kernel-newbies, or asking for
volunteers on the appropriate lists.
Not having looked at the code for either the Linux or BSD atheros 
driver, but having some limited linux network driver experience, I would 
be happy to make an attempt at writing a clean Linux GPL
driver for atheros cards.

Another benefit to this approach is it might cool tempers. Neither the 
GPL not the BSD/ISC Licenses protect the information their authors have 
painstakingly extracted about the hardware.
If both sides recognize that copyright - particularly Open Source 
copyright licenses do not somehow make the ideas and information they 
express proprietary, and that all that is really
in contention is credit and a reduction in labor, then maybe it would be 
easier to get them to agree to modifying licenses.










Dave Lynch 					  	    DLA Systems
Software Development:  				         Embedded Linux
717.627.3770 	       dhlii@dlasys.net 	  http://www.dlasys.net
fax: 1.253.369.9244 			           Cell: 1.717.587.7774
Over 25 years' experience in platforms, languages, and technologies too numerous to list.

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."
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