Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[John W. Linville]

The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium.  OLS is
generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
travel funds for key community participants as well.

Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
proposed schedule of topics.

I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!

John

P.S.  If you intend to attend the event in Ottawa, please send me a
private reply to this note -- even if you believe that I already know
that you are coming! :-)

---

3rd Linux Wireless Summit
Ottawa, Canada
22 July 2008

Proposed Agenda

0830	Meet & Greet

	Introductions and opening remarks

0900	Status Reports

	Overview of where things stand today

	- 802.11n

	- QoS/Multiqueue

	- Mesh mode (802.11s)

	- RF kill

1015	Break

1100	Vendor/Distro Round Table

	Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
	discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
	development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
	are causing for each other.

1200	Lunch/Break (sorry, no funding)

1300	Current Work

	Short presentations/discussions about work in progress

	- encrypted management frames (802.11w)

	- regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)

	- virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)

1445	Break

1500	Future work

	Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
	been suggested or requested

	- cfg80211/nl80211
		- time to push to replace WEXT?
		- tool enhancements and/or userland support?

	- power management (suspend/resume)

	- lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)

	- rate scaling algorithms
		- minstrel
		- others?

	- userland MLME

	- userland driver implementation

1645	Break

1700	Maintainence Issues

	Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
	the wireless trees

	- trivial/cleanup patches
		- testing or other requirements?
		- should they have lower priority?
		- should they require ACKs from primary author?

	- submissions to -stable
		- who should drive it?
		- what policies?

	- rate scaling algs
		- driver-specific ok?  what limitations?
		- build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)

	- questions/suggestions/complaints

1800	Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)

2000	BoF/Break-out Sessions

	Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
	participants

-- 
John W. Linville
linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Tomas Winkler]

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 PM, John W. Linville
<linville@tuxdriver.com> wrote:
> The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
> 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium.  OLS is
> generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
> projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
> Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
> employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
> travel funds for key community participants as well.
>
> Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
> on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
> those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
> an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
> amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
> proposed schedule of topics.
>
> I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!

One more topic would be probably
 power management/power save - connection to system power/power supply
(Battery/AC)

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Mark Ryden]

Hello,
 Linux wireless is, without any doubt, a very important subject.
Many people show interest in it.

It is good to hear that the third Linux Wireless mini-summit will
occur at OLS, which will give opportunity to  many people (which some
of them don't know much about linux wireless) to attend it (whereas
the two last wireless mini-summits were not part of OLS, as far as I
know).

I want to add that It would be great if part of it (or hopefully, all
of it) will be videoed and put on the web. I am sure that many
(including me) will be glad to watch it. I am sure that making an
effort like this is important and is of interest for the linux
wireless community.

Regards,
Mark Ryden


On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 PM, John W. Linville
<linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
> 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium.  OLS is
> generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
> projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
> Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
> employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
> travel funds for key community participants as well.
>
> Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
> on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
> those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
> an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
> amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
> proposed schedule of topics.
>
> I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!
>
> John
>
> P.S.  If you intend to attend the event in Ottawa, please send me a
> private reply to this note -- even if you believe that I already know
> that you are coming! :-)
>
> ---
>
> 3rd Linux Wireless Summit
> Ottawa, Canada
> 22 July 2008
>
> Proposed Agenda
>
> 0830    Meet & Greet
>
>        Introductions and opening remarks
>
> 0900    Status Reports
>
>        Overview of where things stand today
>
>        - 802.11n
>
>        - QoS/Multiqueue
>
>        - Mesh mode (802.11s)
>
>        - RF kill
>
> 1015    Break
>
> 1100    Vendor/Distro Round Table
>
>        Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
>        discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
>        development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
>        are causing for each other.
>
> 1200    Lunch/Break (sorry, no funding)
>
> 1300    Current Work
>
>        Short presentations/discussions about work in progress
>
>        - encrypted management frames (802.11w)
>
>        - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)
>
>        - virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)
>
> 1445    Break
>
> 1500    Future work
>
>        Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
>        been suggested or requested
>
>        - cfg80211/nl80211
>                - time to push to replace WEXT?
>                - tool enhancements and/or userland support?
>
>        - power management (suspend/resume)
>
>        - lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)
>
>        - rate scaling algorithms
>                - minstrel
>                - others?
>
>        - userland MLME
>
>        - userland driver implementation
>
> 1645    Break
>
> 1700    Maintainence Issues
>
>        Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
>        the wireless trees
>
>        - trivial/cleanup patches
>                - testing or other requirements?
>                - should they have lower priority?
>                - should they require ACKs from primary author?
>
>        - submissions to -stable
>                - who should drive it?
>                - what policies?
>
>        - rate scaling algs
>                - driver-specific ok?  what limitations?
>                - build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)
>
>        - questions/suggestions/complaints
>
> 1800    Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)
>
> 2000    BoF/Break-out Sessions
>
>        Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
>        participants
>
> --
> John W. Linville
> linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in
> the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
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>
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Ron Rindjunsky]

>
> > The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
> > 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium.  OLS is
> > generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
> > projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
> > Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
> > employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
> > travel funds for key community participants as well.
> >
> > Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
> > on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
> > those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
> > an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
> > amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
> > proposed schedule of topics.
> >
> > I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!
>
> One more topic would be probably
> power management/power save - connection to system power/power supply
> (Battery/AC)

brief discussion about AP mode current and future plans would be
appreciated, maybe as part of the MLME topic.
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Holger Schurig]

Suspend/Resume?
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Johannes Berg]

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On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 09:21 +0200, Holger Schurig wrote:
> Suspend/Resume?

Umm? It's on his list.

johannes

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Johannes Berg]

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> 0900	Status Reports
> 	Overview of where things stand today
> 	- 802.11n
> 	- QoS/Multiqueue
> 	- Mesh mode (802.11s)
> 	- RF kill

And spectrum management (Tomas) please.

> 1300	Current Work
> 
> 	Short presentations/discussions about work in progress
> 	- encrypted management frames (802.11w)
> 	- regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)
> 	- virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)

or here :)

We've seen initial patches that add a bit of infrastructure, but aren't
using these things yet.

johannes

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Tomas Winkler]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Johannes Berg
<johannes@sipsolutions.net> wrote:
>
>> 0900  Status Reports
>>       Overview of where things stand today
>>       - 802.11n
>>       - QoS/Multiqueue
>>       - Mesh mode (802.11s)
>>       - RF kill
>
> And spectrum management (Tomas) please.



>
> We've seen initial patches that add a bit of infrastructure, but aren't
> using these things yet.

Hope to submit all the patches before symposium.
The whole package is already visible in iwl5000 branch of
iwlwifi-2.6.git Need to clean it up and submit.

Thanks
Tomas

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Kalle Valo]

Tomas Winkler <tomasw-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

>> Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
>> on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
>> those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
>> an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
>> amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
>> proposed schedule of topics.
>>
>> I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!
>
> One more topic would be probably
>  power management/power save - connection to system power/power supply
> (Battery/AC)

I'm also very interested about this. mac80211 is lacking any support
for Power Save Mode and I think we should fix that. At least having an
interface to enable and disable PSM would be a start, but we could go
even further than that.

I'm just worried if one day is enough for us. The agenda is getting
quite long already.

-- 
Kalle Valo
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Johannes Berg]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 306 bytes --]


> 1500	Future work

Maybe something about testing? Or I'll do a testing brainstorming
session after dinner.

Obviously, testing at orbit never worked out, but it'd be good to have
_something_ other than everybody testing their thing locally. Ties in
with the virtual hardware, maybe?

johannes

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Tomas Winkler]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Johannes Berg
<johannes@sipsolutions.net> wrote:
>
>> 1500  Future work
>
> Maybe something about testing? Or I'll do a testing brainstorming
> session after dinner.
>
> Obviously, testing at orbit never worked out, but it'd be good to have
> _something_ other than everybody testing their thing locally. Ties in
> with the virtual hardware, maybe?
>
>From the driver perspective it would be loop back phy (tx/rx), The
peer side might be running on virtual HW. Currently it's not easy to
establish automated regression over the air. Good portion of the flows
can be tested this way.

I'm also looking for easier bug reporting for unexperienced users
maybe some uevent/HAL popping to application and emails it out/. Not
sure really how to handle this and not create spams. I'm just
expecting more real 'end users'.


Thanks
Tomas

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Inaky Perez-Gonzalez]

On Wednesday 09 July 2008, John W. Linville wrote:
> The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
> 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium.  OLS is
> generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
> projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
> Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
> employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
> travel funds for key community participants as well.
> 
> Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
> on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
> those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
> an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
> amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
> proposed schedule of topics.

Please add a note about WiMAX. We'd like to give a quick intro to the
technology and the infrastructure work we are doing for it.

-- 
Inaky
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Stefanik Gábor]

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:09 PM, John W. Linville <linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
> 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium.  OLS is
> generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
> projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
> Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
> employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
> travel funds for key community participants as well.
>
> Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
> on our agenda for the meeting.  Based on current upstream topics and
> those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
> an agenda proposal below.  Please review it and feel free to suggest
> amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
> proposed schedule of topics.
>
> I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!
>
> John
>
> P.S.  If you intend to attend the event in Ottawa, please send me a
> private reply to this note -- even if you believe that I already know
> that you are coming! :-)
>
> ---
>
> 3rd Linux Wireless Summit
> Ottawa, Canada
> 22 July 2008
>
> Proposed Agenda
>
> 0830    Meet & Greet
>
>        Introductions and opening remarks
>
> 0900    Status Reports
>
>        Overview of where things stand today
>
>        - 802.11n
>
>        - QoS/Multiqueue
>
>        - Mesh mode (802.11s)
>
>        - RF kill
>
> 1015    Break
>
> 1100    Vendor/Distro Round Table
>
>        Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
>        discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
>        development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
>        are causing for each other.
>
> 1200    Lunch/Break (sorry, no funding)
>
> 1300    Current Work
>
>        Short presentations/discussions about work in progress
>
>        - encrypted management frames (802.11w)
>
>        - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)
>
>        - virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)
>
> 1445    Break
>
> 1500    Future work
>
>        Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
>        been suggested or requested
>
>        - cfg80211/nl80211
>                - time to push to replace WEXT?
>                - tool enhancements and/or userland support?
>
>        - power management (suspend/resume)
>
>        - lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)
>
>        - rate scaling algorithms
>                - minstrel
>                - others?
>
>        - userland MLME
>
>        - userland driver implementation
>
> 1645    Break
>
> 1700    Maintainence Issues
>
>        Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
>        the wireless trees
>
>        - trivial/cleanup patches
>                - testing or other requirements?
>                - should they have lower priority?
>                - should they require ACKs from primary author?
>
>        - submissions to -stable
>                - who should drive it?
>                - what policies?
>
>        - rate scaling algs
>                - driver-specific ok?  what limitations?
>                - build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)
>
>        - questions/suggestions/complaints
>
> 1800    Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)
>
> 2000    BoF/Break-out Sessions
>
>        Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
>        participants
>
> --
> John W. Linville
> linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-wireless" in
> the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
- New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)
- Radiotap enhancements
- Userspace MLME: Plans and status

-- 
Vista: [V]iruses, [I]ntruders, [S]pyware, [T]rojans and [A]dware. :-)
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Michael Buesch]

On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
> Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
> - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)

I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?

> - Radiotap enhancements

What radiotap enhancements specifically? If it's just a field or a bit
to add, just mail the radiotap people. I think there's no need to discuss that
(except for with the radiotap people on their mailinglist).

> - Userspace MLME: Plans and status

Already on the list.

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Jouni Malinen]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 05:30:47PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:

> I'm just worried if one day is enough for us. The agenda is getting
> quite long already.

There should be plenty of time to continue discussions after (or even
before) the mini-summit since I would assume most people stay for OLS.
For example, I will be in Ottawa for the full week (July 18-27) and
will be available for discussions related to wireless topics both
before and after the mini-summit itself.
 
-- 
Jouni Malinen                                            PGP id EFC895FA
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Kalle Valo]

Jouni Malinen <j@w1.fi> writes:

> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 05:30:47PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
>
>> I'm just worried if one day is enough for us. The agenda is getting
>> quite long already.
>
> There should be plenty of time to continue discussions after (or even
> before) the mini-summit since I would assume most people stay for OLS.

Yes, you are right. I guess there are vacant rooms during the OLS
which we can use, if needed.

> For example, I will be in Ottawa for the full week (July 18-27) and
> will be available for discussions related to wireless topics both
> before and after the mini-summit itself.

I'm also very interested in any discussions. I will be arriving on the
20th and leaving on the 27th of July.

-- 
Kalle Valo
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Guy Cohen]

I think that probably the most burning topics were a little diminished
in our agenda, and should be put higher:
- cfg80211/nl80211 - much of the current wext begins to fall behind
the emerging capabilities of the mac80211 and moreover - from future
abilities and needs of future fullmac devices. The functionality and
ABI to userspace must be finalized as soon as possible. The status of
this is very unclear and should be treated more thoroughly, and it
seems it can't be shared with 5 other topics in less than 2 hours.
- fullmac support - seems to be very relevant in the next couple of
years with the integration of wifi into low power devices running
linux.

I think that these two topics should take precedence over other topics
that although important consume more time in the agenda, and are
currently less likely to have impact on the average users such as 11s
and 11w.

it would be good if these topics will get substantial time slot in the agenda.
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Guy Cohen]

I think that probably the most burning topics were a little diminished
in our agenda, and should be put higher:
- cfg80211/nl80211 - much of the current wext begins to fall behind
the emerging capabilities of the mac80211 and moreover - from future
abilities and needs of future fullmac devices. The functionality and
ABI to userspace must be finalized as soon as possible. The status of
this is very unclear and should be treated more thoroughly, and it
seems it can't be shared with 5 other topics in less than 2 hours.
- fullmac support - seems to be very relevant in the next couple of
years with the integration of wifi into low power devices running
linux.

I think that these two topics should take precedence over other topics
that although important consume more time in the agenda, and are
currently less likely to have impact on the average users such as 11s
and 11w.

it would be good if these topics will get substantial time slot in the agenda.

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 18:15 +0200, Michael Buesch wrote:
> On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
> > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
> > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)
> 
> I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
> Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?

Maybe during the week we could organize some hackfests to work on the
Marvell/SiS/etc mac80211 drivers?  Everyone bring their favorite
non-working Marvell 88w83xx card and we make mrv8k our bitch or
something like that.

Dan

> > - Radiotap enhancements
> 
> What radiotap enhancements specifically? If it's just a field or a bit
> to add, just mail the radiotap people. I think there's no need to discuss that
> (except for with the radiotap people on their mailinglist).
> 
> > - Userspace MLME: Plans and status
> 
> Already on the list.
> 

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Nicolas Pitre]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 985 bytes --]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 18:15 +0200, Michael Buesch wrote:
> > On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
> > > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
> > > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)
> > 
> > I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
> > Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?
> 
> Maybe during the week we could organize some hackfests to work on the
> Marvell/SiS/etc mac80211 drivers?  Everyone bring their favorite
> non-working Marvell 88w83xx card and we make mrv8k our bitch or
> something like that.

FYI...

Lennert Buytenhek and I are writing a GPL driver for mv8300 class of 
Marvell WIFI chips right now, present and future versions. This is 
Marvell work as we work for Marvell.  I have access to firmware sources, 
etc. but obviously cannot share them.

We both will be in Ottawa next week.


Nicolas

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[John W. Linville]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 06:05:13PM +0300, Guy Cohen wrote:
> I think that probably the most burning topics were a little diminished
> in our agenda, and should be put higher:
> - cfg80211/nl80211 - much of the current wext begins to fall behind
> the emerging capabilities of the mac80211 and moreover - from future
> abilities and needs of future fullmac devices. The functionality and
> ABI to userspace must be finalized as soon as possible. The status of
> this is very unclear and should be treated more thoroughly, and it
> seems it can't be shared with 5 other topics in less than 2 hours.

FWIW, I listed this one first under Future Work.

> - fullmac support - seems to be very relevant in the next couple of
> years with the integration of wifi into low power devices running
> linux.

Not sure exactly what you mean with this one.  Are you talking about
the lib80211 line item?  Or enhancements to the mac80211 component
to support full(er) MAC designs?

> I think that these two topics should take precedence over other topics
> that although important consume more time in the agenda, and are
> currently less likely to have impact on the average users such as 11s
> and 11w.
> 
> it would be good if these topics will get substantial time slot in the agenda.

There are lots of items listed, and I'm not sure we will cover all
of them.  If there are any that you would like to suggest be dropped
completely then please do so.

That said, I don't think we have enough time for real working sessions
on Tuesday.  I think it would be better just to touch on a variety
of topics that can benefit from some face-to-face discussions.
>From that perspective, I think some status reports and some brief
proposals are most appropriate.

I'll post a revised (mostly just augmented) agenda proposal today.

John
-- 
John W. Linville
linville@tuxdriver.com

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 13:31 -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 18:15 +0200, Michael Buesch wrote:
> > > On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
> > > > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
> > > > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)
> > > 
> > > I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
> > > Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?
> > 
> > Maybe during the week we could organize some hackfests to work on the
> > Marvell/SiS/etc mac80211 drivers?  Everyone bring their favorite
> > non-working Marvell 88w83xx card and we make mrv8k our bitch or
> > something like that.
> 
> FYI...
> 
> Lennert Buytenhek and I are writing a GPL driver for mv8300 class of 
> Marvell WIFI chips right now, present and future versions. This is 
> Marvell work as we work for Marvell.  I have access to firmware sources, 
> etc. but obviously cannot share them.
> 
> We both will be in Ottawa next week.

Great!  Lets definitely sit down and talk then.  There is already some
GPL-ed source code for 83xx chips out there but it always used net80211,
not mac80211.  So the mrv8k effort is meant to write a mac80211 driver
for 8310/8335/etc and perhaps TopDog chips too since they don't seem
that much different from a driver perspective.

Some of the issues with the current Marvell 83xx GPL drivers that have
gotten out are (a) code style, (b) lots of commented out stuff that's
never used, (c) OS abstraction that's unnecessary on Linux, (d) doesn't
use mac80211, and (e) uses private ioctls.  So hopefully you're writing
a new 83xx driver from scratch :)

We cleaned up a lot of stuff for the OLPC 8388 libertas driver, but
unfortunately we never were able to get the Marvell 8388 team onboard,
and so they just went off and kept working on their driver and didn't
really move the upstream libertas driver forward at all.

Dan


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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 13:58 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 13:31 -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 18:15 +0200, Michael Buesch wrote:
> > > > On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
> > > > > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
> > > > > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)
> > > > 
> > > > I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
> > > > Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?
> > > 
> > > Maybe during the week we could organize some hackfests to work on the
> > > Marvell/SiS/etc mac80211 drivers?  Everyone bring their favorite
> > > non-working Marvell 88w83xx card and we make mrv8k our bitch or
> > > something like that.
> > 
> > FYI...
> > 
> > Lennert Buytenhek and I are writing a GPL driver for mv8300 class of 
> > Marvell WIFI chips right now, present and future versions. This is 
> > Marvell work as we work for Marvell.  I have access to firmware sources, 
> > etc. but obviously cannot share them.
> > 
> > We both will be in Ottawa next week.
> 
> Great!  Lets definitely sit down and talk then.  There is already some
> GPL-ed source code for 83xx chips out there but it always used net80211,
> not mac80211.  So the mrv8k effort is meant to write a mac80211 driver
> for 8310/8335/etc and perhaps TopDog chips too since they don't seem
> that much different from a driver perspective.
> 
> Some of the issues with the current Marvell 83xx GPL drivers that have
> gotten out are (a) code style, (b) lots of commented out stuff that's
> never used, (c) OS abstraction that's unnecessary on Linux, (d) doesn't
> use mac80211, and (e) uses private ioctls.  So hopefully you're writing
> a new 83xx driver from scratch :)
> 
> We cleaned up a lot of stuff for the OLPC 8388 libertas driver, but
> unfortunately we never were able to get the Marvell 8388 team onboard,
> and so they just went off and kept working on their driver and didn't
> really move the upstream libertas driver forward at all.

Forgot to finish this last bit...

So hopefully that won't happen here, since this would be pretty much the
same situation up to this point.  Ideally you can get the internal
Marvell developers onboard so we're all working on essentially the same
bits, exactly like Intel has done.  Yeah, they develop on private trees
internally but at the end of the day, their base code is the same
upstream base code everyone else uses.

Dan

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:

> Some of the issues with the current Marvell 83xx GPL drivers that have
> gotten out are (a) code style, (b) lots of commented out stuff that's
> never used, (c) OS abstraction that's unnecessary on Linux, (d) doesn't
> use mac80211, and (e) uses private ioctls.  So hopefully you're writing
> a new 83xx driver from scratch :)

Yes, this is all from scratch.  The objective for this work is to be 
"mainlinable".

> We cleaned up a lot of stuff for the OLPC 8388 libertas driver, but
> unfortunately we never were able to get the Marvell 8388 team onboard,
> and so they just went off and kept working on their driver and didn't
> really move the upstream libertas driver forward at all.

Libertas is a rather different beast.


Nicolas
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 13:42 -0400, John W. Linville wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 06:05:13PM +0300, Guy Cohen wrote:
> > I think that probably the most burning topics were a little diminished
> > in our agenda, and should be put higher:
> > - cfg80211/nl80211 - much of the current wext begins to fall behind
> > the emerging capabilities of the mac80211 and moreover - from future
> > abilities and needs of future fullmac devices. The functionality and
> > ABI to userspace must be finalized as soon as possible. The status of
> > this is very unclear and should be treated more thoroughly, and it
> > seems it can't be shared with 5 other topics in less than 2 hours.
> 
> FWIW, I listed this one first under Future Work.
> 
> > - fullmac support - seems to be very relevant in the next couple of
> > years with the integration of wifi into low power devices running
> > linux.
> 
> Not sure exactly what you mean with this one.  Are you talking about
> the lib80211 line item?  Or enhancements to the mac80211 component
> to support full(er) MAC designs?

I hope just lib80211.  We shouldn't be extending mac80211 to fullmac or
quasi-fullmac parts.  But we can certainly share a lot of stuff.
lib80211 is where I see any additional fullmac effort going.

Dan

> > I think that these two topics should take precedence over other topics
> > that although important consume more time in the agenda, and are
> > currently less likely to have impact on the average users such as 11s
> > and 11w.
> > 
> > it would be good if these topics will get substantial time slot in the agenda.
> 
> There are lots of items listed, and I'm not sure we will cover all
> of them.  If there are any that you would like to suggest be dropped
> completely then please do so.
> 
> That said, I don't think we have enough time for real working sessions
> on Tuesday.  I think it would be better just to touch on a variety
> of topics that can benefit from some face-to-face discussions.
> From that perspective, I think some status reports and some brief
> proposals are most appropriate.
> 
> I'll post a revised (mostly just augmented) agenda proposal today.
> 
> John

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REVISED AGENDA -- Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[John W. Linville]

I revised the agenda based on the feedback from last week.
Most changes are fairly minor, although I moved the vendor/distro
round table after lunch to give us a chance to cover some in-progress
work beforehand.

As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I don't think we have enough
time for work sessions on Tuesday.  As others have pointed-out, there
is plenty of time for extended discussions during the days at OLS.
So I think we should keep Tuesday for more high-level design and
development process discussions.

Feel free to volunteer to cover any of the listed topics.  Further
suggestions to alter or augment the agenda are, of course, still
welcome as well.

Thanks!

John

---

3rd Linux Wireless Summit
Ottawa, Canada
22 July 2008

Proposed Agenda

0830	Meet & Greet

	Introductions and opening remarks

0900	Status Reports

	Overview of where things stand today

	- 802.11n

	- QoS/Multiqueue

	- spectrum management

	- Mesh mode (802.11s)

	- RF kill

1015	Break

1030	Current Work

	Short presentations/discussions about work in progress

	- access point mode

	- cfg80211/nl80211
		- time to push to replace WEXT?
		- tool enhancements and/or userland support?

	- regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)

	- encrypted management frames (802.11w)

	- virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)

	- WiMAX

1200	Lunch/Break (provided by HP)

1300	Vendor/Distro Round Table

	Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
	discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
	development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
	are causing for each other.

1445	Break

1500	Future work

	Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
	been suggested or requested

	- power management 
		- suspend/resume
		- power savings

	- lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)

	- rate scaling algorithms
		- minstrel
		- others?

	- userland MLME

	- userland driver implementation

	- organized testing?

1645	Break

1700	Maintainence Issues

	Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
	the wireless trees

	- trivial/cleanup patches
		- testing or other requirements?
		- should they have lower priority?
		- should they require ACKs from primary author?

	- submissions to -stable
		- who should drive it?
		- what policies?

	- rate scaling algs
		- driver-specific ok?  what limitations?
		- build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)

	- questions/suggestions/complaints

1800	Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)

2000	BoF/Break-out Sessions

	Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
	participants

-- 
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 14:14 -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:
> 
> > Some of the issues with the current Marvell 83xx GPL drivers that have
> > gotten out are (a) code style, (b) lots of commented out stuff that's
> > never used, (c) OS abstraction that's unnecessary on Linux, (d) doesn't
> > use mac80211, and (e) uses private ioctls.  So hopefully you're writing
> > a new 83xx driver from scratch :)
> 
> Yes, this is all from scratch.  The objective for this work is to be 
> "mainlinable".
> 
> > We cleaned up a lot of stuff for the OLPC 8388 libertas driver, but
> > unfortunately we never were able to get the Marvell 8388 team onboard,
> > and so they just went off and kept working on their driver and didn't
> > really move the upstream libertas driver forward at all.
> 
> Libertas is a rather different beast.

Obviously; this was just an observation about the last time we got a
wireless driver from Marvell.  I expect it to work out rather
differently this time simply on the strength of your and Lennert's
track-record, but if it's really just you two guys and you don't have
buy-in from the actual hardware and software teams inside Marvell, it's
hard to see how this wouldn't just happen again.

Dan

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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Johannes Berg]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 615 bytes --]


> > Not sure exactly what you mean with this one.  Are you talking about
> > the lib80211 line item?  Or enhancements to the mac80211 component
> > to support full(er) MAC designs?
> 
> I hope just lib80211.  We shouldn't be extending mac80211 to fullmac or
> quasi-fullmac parts.  But we can certainly share a lot of stuff.
> lib80211 is where I see any additional fullmac effort going.

Just a minor point wrt. lib80211: I see little use in creating yet
another module since hopefully soon enough fullmac chipsets will bind
cfg80211 anyway so all of that stuff might as well be in there.

johannes

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 836 bytes --]

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 10:24 +0200, Johannes Berg wrote:
> > > Not sure exactly what you mean with this one.  Are you talking about
> > > the lib80211 line item?  Or enhancements to the mac80211 component
> > > to support full(er) MAC designs?
> > 
> > I hope just lib80211.  We shouldn't be extending mac80211 to fullmac or
> > quasi-fullmac parts.  But we can certainly share a lot of stuff.
> > lib80211 is where I see any additional fullmac effort going.
> 
> Just a minor point wrt. lib80211: I see little use in creating yet
> another module since hopefully soon enough fullmac chipsets will bind
> cfg80211 anyway so all of that stuff might as well be in there.

worksforme, I don't really care where that stuff goes as long as we get
it in one place :)

Dan

2nd REVISED AGENDA -- Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[John W. Linville]

I adjusted the times based on the schedule for lunch and coffee breaks
from the OLS crew.  I also adjusted the length of some slots, and
move the BoF/Break-Out/BarCamp section before adjourning for dinner.

I'm still looking for more/different topics and for people to
explicitly claim the ones on the list...speak up!

John

---

3rd Linux Wireless Summit
Les Suites Hotel, Byward Suite
Ottawa, Canada
22 July 2008

Proposed Agenda

0830	Meet & Greet

	Introductions and opening remarks

0900	Status Reports

	Overview of where things stand today

	- QoS/Multiqueue

	- 802.11n

	- spectrum management

	- Mesh mode (802.11s)

	- RF kill

	- driver status reports

1000	Break

1030	Current Work

	Short presentations/discussions about work in progress

	- access point mode

	- cfg80211/nl80211
		- time to push to replace WEXT?
		- tool enhancements and/or userland support?

	- regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)

	- encrypted management frames (802.11w)

	- virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)

	- WiMAX

1200	Vendor/Distro Round Table

	Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
	discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
	development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
	are causing for each other.

1230	Lunch/Break (provided by HP)

1330	Future work

	Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
	been suggested or requested

	- power management 
		- suspend/resume
		- power savings

	- lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)

	- rate scaling algorithms
		- minstrel
		- others?

	- userland MLME

	- userland driver implementation

	- organized testing (anyone have a proposal?)

1500	BoF/Break-out/BarCamp Session Proposals

1530	Break

1600	BoF/Break-out/BarCamp Sessions

	Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
	participants

1730	BoF/Break-out/BarCamp Session Reports

1800	Maintainence Issues

	Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
	the wireless trees

	- trivial/cleanup patches
		- testing or other requirements?
		- should they have lower priority?
		- should they require ACKs from primary author?

	- submissions to -stable
		- who should drive it?
		- what policies?

	- rate scaling algs
		- driver-specific ok?  what limitations?
		- build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)

	- questions/suggestions/complaints

1830	Adjourn

-- 
John W. Linville
linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org
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Re: 2nd REVISED AGENDA -- Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[John W. Linville]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 02:48:03PM -0400, John W. Linville wrote:

> 3rd Linux Wireless Summit
> Les Suites Hotel, Byward Suite
> Ottawa, Canada
> 22 July 2008

Just to emphasize, please note the location.  The mini-summit will
be held at Les Suites, _not_ at the Congress Centre.

John
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Re: 2nd REVISED AGENDA -- Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM, John W. Linville
<linville@tuxdriver.com> wrote:

>        - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)

I'll cover this. If we can't cover this well in the time frame
provided we can discuss this over the course of the week in impromptu
sessions.

  Luis

Re: 2nd REVISED AGENDA -- Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM, John W. Linville
<linville@tuxdriver.com> wrote:

> I'm still looking for more/different topics

A couple I can think of:

* Compat-wireless, this can be discussed after new MQ patch. We may
have to freeze mac80211 for old kernels for compat-wireless after the
MQ patch goes through and only leave in it fixes moving forward. This
consideration is because porting the MQ patch may be very difficult to
maintain. It was expected though that the first MQ patch could not be
ported though so we'll see, we just might be able to port this
properly. We can talk about this further at the summit.

* Testing -- lets get serious about automation of testing. The Orbit
grid is still available, we just need to put together scripts and test
scenarios.

* Rate control cleanup -- this needs to a good review and cleanup.
Probably not high on our priority list though. We can talk about this
further during the "rate scaling algs" section on the agenda.

  Luis

3rd REVISED AGENDA -- Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[John W. Linville]

One more adjustment to account for change in the lunch schedule.

John

---

3rd Linux Wireless Summit
Les Suites Hotel, Byward Suite
Ottawa, Canada
22 July 2008

Proposed Agenda

0830	Meet & Greet

	Introductions and opening remarks

0900	Status Reports

	Overview of where things stand today

	- QoS/Multiqueue

	- 802.11n

	- spectrum management

	- Mesh mode (802.11s)

	- RF kill

	- driver status reports

1000	Break

1030	Current Work

	Short presentations/discussions about work in progress

	- access point mode

	- cfg80211/nl80211
		- time to push to replace WEXT?
		- tool enhancements and/or userland support?

	- regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)

	- encrypted management frames (802.11w)

	- virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)

	- WiMAX

1200	Vendor/Distro Round Table

	Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
	discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
	development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
	are causing for each other.

1230	Lunch/Break (provided)

1400	Future work

	Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
	been suggested or requested

	- power management 
		- suspend/resume
		- power savings

	- lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)

	- rate scaling algorithms
		- minstrel
		- others?

	- userland MLME

	- userland driver implementation

	- organized testing (anyone have a proposal?)

1530	BoF/Break-out/BarCamp Session Proposals

1600	Break

1630	BoF/Break-out/BarCamp Sessions

	Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
	participants

1800	BoF/Break-out/BarCamp Session Reports

1830	Maintainence Issues

	Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
	the wireless trees

	- trivial/cleanup patches
		- testing or other requirements?
		- should they have lower priority?
		- should they require ACKs from primary author?

	- submissions to -stable
		- who should drive it?
		- what policies?

	- rate scaling algs
		- driver-specific ok?  what limitations?
		- build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)

	- questions/suggestions/complaints

1900	Adjourn
-- 
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linville-2XuSBdqkA4R54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org
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Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Dan Williams]

On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 14:14 -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:
> 
> > Some of the issues with the current Marvell 83xx GPL drivers that have
> > gotten out are (a) code style, (b) lots of commented out stuff that's
> > never used, (c) OS abstraction that's unnecessary on Linux, (d) doesn't
> > use mac80211, and (e) uses private ioctls.  So hopefully you're writing
> > a new 83xx driver from scratch :)
> 
> Yes, this is all from scratch.  The objective for this work is to be 
> "mainlinable".

BTW, any chance on putting up a git repo somewhere so others can poke
around with it?  I'm quite interested in hacking on it.

Dan

Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 14:14 -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:
> > 
> > > Some of the issues with the current Marvell 83xx GPL drivers that have
> > > gotten out are (a) code style, (b) lots of commented out stuff that's
> > > never used, (c) OS abstraction that's unnecessary on Linux, (d) doesn't
> > > use mac80211, and (e) uses private ioctls.  So hopefully you're writing
> > > a new 83xx driver from scratch :)
> > 
> > Yes, this is all from scratch.  The objective for this work is to be 
> > "mainlinable".
> 
> BTW, any chance on putting up a git repo somewhere so others can poke
> around with it?  I'm quite interested in hacking on it.

Eventually, of course.  Let's discuss f2f tomorrow.


Nicolas
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