From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACD64947A; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 14:58:21 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1717685901; cv=none; b=GJoMnHx0NWyWQQHyWBneN6vYkG7vjeIQRaBj0VaA4IqIPbtRUZ5cTgEKstUSF2SGwd0BSsUHtosQyK4qlH+QcAYEp61b6OfIsIg4QpYnEc2VB7vYjkhpZHx+VCvLxu0KAL9GfHbOLRdJ3F5w7L+bfOzexn94cdDkSEvHIL6sbnQ= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1717685901; c=relaxed/simple; bh=wUyTk2XCcfIgQiOCG5VskfpJs0gkjKHOkmBTY7ZiuMg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=owiXrBMlZcOihGavmt7+dVTaEq664oqQP3fGN1G2cs9IW2mbawN/fUDP82dIhm7FWB+7Rq1oQm1L0UV8XRTBuBJ+ja6fj1A4Y8Z+RAvx1YLsr2VzRqju5F1eicvSajFegY//iKZQyKqfhpm4ZlEhVW7iBuMI7i39uUCqDpbxZYQ= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=JcjBPwSS; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="JcjBPwSS" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B827C2BD10; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 14:58:20 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1717685901; bh=wUyTk2XCcfIgQiOCG5VskfpJs0gkjKHOkmBTY7ZiuMg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=JcjBPwSSdzr5td/KOY0/p5smNdNTakmoFkhLTiUlsOOB8Svz5s/YfdbPZr7ldWEAt PuUAFKPLPS+/fTmE6D+54msse/YFG9fqt2djgzU/g41yP9urWJvp1IDrSAUqaEcHga FnPEk70yeJfL+fpuKVpQwosEWJwgGcofn/OxNUA7kRmMYhIOPWEVcVdomGwXbNNQCT TnZRYo9f8neqIAYasLEIMqiJ7C6JqEXi6XIO0PbEGV333ejtexEtUHm4sttnYhReJ+ 4UEz0VecWvvs8ZHf4qoZzZLTLAUW4zgEav08ieyN2IVfqJ/l2PN5lwCvZyn7s8nn3l ArVauj3uuxHaw== Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2024 07:58:19 -0700 From: Jakub Kicinski To: Jason Gunthorpe Cc: Dan Williams , David Ahern , Jonathan Corbet , Itay Avraham , Leon Romanovsky , linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Paolo Abeni , Saeed Mahameed , Tariq Toukan , Andy Gospodarek , Aron Silverton , Christoph Hellwig , Jiri Pirko , Leonid Bloch , Leon Romanovsky , linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org, patches@lists.linux.dev Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/8] Introduce fwctl subystem Message-ID: <20240606075819.00795275@kernel.org> In-Reply-To: <20240606144102.GB19897@nvidia.com> References: <0-v1-9912f1a11620+2a-fwctl_jgg@nvidia.com> <20240603114250.5325279c@kernel.org> <214d7d82-0916-4c29-9012-04590e77df73@kernel.org> <20240604070451.79cfb280@kernel.org> <665fa9c9e69de_4a4e62941e@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch> <20240605135911.GT19897@nvidia.com> <6661416ed4334_2d412294a1@dwillia2-mobl3.amr.corp.intel.com.notmuch> <20240606144102.GB19897@nvidia.com> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: netdev@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:41:02 -0300 Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > In my view it is wrong to think the kernel is the only place we can > make generic things or that allowing userspace to see the raw device > interface immediately means fragmentation and chaos. The industry is > more robust than that. Giving people working in userspace room to > invent their own solutions is actually helpful to driving some > commonality. There are already soft targets in the K8S that people > need to fit into, if the first few steps are with abc/def tools and > that brings us to an eventual true commonality, then great. Yes, this is the core of our disagreement. And one which is quite hard to resolve with technical arguments. I believe kernel may not be a great place to keep all the controls, but it is in my opinion the most healthy open source project among the available options. You mention K8S, but I'd give SoNiC (the NOS) as a more relevant example. A hyperscaler or another trillion dollar company can certainly have a swing at creating other open layers of commonality. Together with its other trillion dollar friends. Removing the minor inconvenience of having to ship an out of tree module for out of tree tools is not worth the loss.