* Re: [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events [not found] <20231123030732.111576-1-lulie@linux.alibaba.com> @ 2023-11-23 12:37 ` Philo Lu 2023-11-24 9:47 ` Daniel Borkmann 2023-11-29 0:33 ` Martin KaFai Lau 0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Philo Lu @ 2023-11-23 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bpf Cc: xuanzhuo, dust.li, alibuda, guwen, hengqi, edumazet, davem, kuba, pabeni, ast, daniel, andrii, martin.lau, song, yonghong.song, john.fastabend, kpsingh, sdf, haoluo, jolsa, dsahern, netdev Sorry, I forgot to cc the maintainers. On 2023/11/23 11:07, Philo Lu wrote: > Add 3 sock_ops operators, namely BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, > BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, and BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. A flag > BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG is provided to minimize the performance > impact. The flag must be explicitly set to enable these callbacks. > > If the flag is enabled, bpf sock_ops program will be called every time a > tcp data packet is sent, received, and acked. > BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB: call bpf after a data packet is sent. > BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB: call bpf after a data packet is receviced. > BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB: call bpf after a valid ack packet is > processed (some sent data are ackknowledged). > > We use these callbacks for fine-grained tcp monitoring, which collects > and analyses every tcp request/response event information. The whole > system has been described in SIGMOD'18 (see > https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3183713.3190659 for details). To > achieve this with bpf, we require hooks for data events that call > sock_ops bpf (1) when any data packet is sent/received/acked, and (2) > after critical tcp state variables have been updated (e.g., snd_una, > snd_nxt, rcv_nxt). However, existing sock_ops operators cannot meet our > requirements. > > Besides, these hooks also help to debug tcp when data send/recv/acked. > > Signed-off-by: Philo Lu <lulie@linux.alibaba.com> > --- > include/net/tcp.h | 9 +++++++++ > include/uapi/linux/bpf.h | 14 +++++++++++++- > net/ipv4/tcp_input.c | 4 ++++ > net/ipv4/tcp_output.c | 2 ++ > 4 files changed, 28 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-) > > diff --git a/include/net/tcp.h b/include/net/tcp.h > index d2f0736b76b8..73eda03fdda5 100644 > --- a/include/net/tcp.h > +++ b/include/net/tcp.h > @@ -2660,6 +2660,15 @@ static inline void tcp_bpf_rtt(struct sock *sk) > tcp_call_bpf(sk, BPF_SOCK_OPS_RTT_CB, 0, NULL); > } > > +/* op must be one of BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, > + * or BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. > + */ > +static inline void tcp_bpf_data_event(struct sock *sk, int op) > +{ > + if (BPF_SOCK_OPS_TEST_FLAG(tcp_sk(sk), BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG)) > + tcp_call_bpf(sk, op, 0, NULL); > +} > + > #if IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_SMC) > extern struct static_key_false tcp_have_smc; > #endif > diff --git a/include/uapi/linux/bpf.h b/include/uapi/linux/bpf.h > index 7cf8bcf9f6a2..2154a6235901 100644 > --- a/include/uapi/linux/bpf.h > +++ b/include/uapi/linux/bpf.h > @@ -3016,6 +3016,7 @@ union bpf_attr { > * * **BPF_SOCK_OPS_RETRANS_CB_FLAG** (retransmission) > * * **BPF_SOCK_OPS_STATE_CB_FLAG** (TCP state change) > * * **BPF_SOCK_OPS_RTT_CB_FLAG** (every RTT) > + * * **BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG** (data packet send/recv/acked) > * > * Therefore, this function can be used to clear a callback flag by > * setting the appropriate bit to zero. e.g. to disable the RTO > @@ -6755,8 +6756,10 @@ enum { > * options first before the BPF program does. > */ > BPF_SOCK_OPS_WRITE_HDR_OPT_CB_FLAG = (1<<6), > + /* Call bpf when data send/recv/acked. */ > + BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG = (1<<7), > /* Mask of all currently supported cb flags */ > - BPF_SOCK_OPS_ALL_CB_FLAGS = 0x7F, > + BPF_SOCK_OPS_ALL_CB_FLAGS = 0xFF, > }; > > /* List of known BPF sock_ops operators. > @@ -6869,6 +6872,15 @@ enum { > * by the kernel or the > * earlier bpf-progs. > */ > + BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, /* Calls BPF program when a > + * data packet is sent. Pure ack is ignored. > + */ > + BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, /* Calls BPF program when a > + * data packet is received. Pure ack is ignored. > + */ > + BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB, /* Calls BPF program when sent > + * data are acknowledged. > + */ > }; > > /* List of TCP states. There is a build check in net/ipv4/tcp.c to detect > diff --git a/net/ipv4/tcp_input.c b/net/ipv4/tcp_input.c > index bcb55d98004c..72c6192e7cd0 100644 > --- a/net/ipv4/tcp_input.c > +++ b/net/ipv4/tcp_input.c > @@ -824,6 +824,8 @@ static void tcp_event_data_recv(struct sock *sk, struct sk_buff *skb) > > now = tcp_jiffies32; > > + tcp_bpf_data_event(sk, BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB); > + > if (!icsk->icsk_ack.ato) { > /* The _first_ data packet received, initialize > * delayed ACK engine. > @@ -3454,6 +3456,8 @@ static int tcp_clean_rtx_queue(struct sock *sk, const struct sk_buff *ack_skb, > flag |= FLAG_SET_XMIT_TIMER; /* set TLP or RTO timer */ > } > > + tcp_bpf_data_event(sk, BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB); > + > if (icsk->icsk_ca_ops->pkts_acked) { > struct ack_sample sample = { .pkts_acked = pkts_acked, > .rtt_us = sack->rate->rtt_us }; > diff --git a/net/ipv4/tcp_output.c b/net/ipv4/tcp_output.c > index eb13a55d660c..ddd6a9c2150f 100644 > --- a/net/ipv4/tcp_output.c > +++ b/net/ipv4/tcp_output.c > @@ -2821,6 +2821,8 @@ static bool tcp_write_xmit(struct sock *sk, unsigned int mss_now, int nonagle, > /* Send one loss probe per tail loss episode. */ > if (push_one != 2) > tcp_schedule_loss_probe(sk, false); > + > + tcp_bpf_data_event(sk, BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB); > return false; > } > return !tp->packets_out && !tcp_write_queue_empty(sk); ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events 2023-11-23 12:37 ` [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events Philo Lu @ 2023-11-24 9:47 ` Daniel Borkmann 2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu 2023-11-29 0:33 ` Martin KaFai Lau 1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Daniel Borkmann @ 2023-11-24 9:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Philo Lu, bpf Cc: xuanzhuo, dust.li, alibuda, guwen, hengqi, edumazet, davem, kuba, pabeni, ast, andrii, martin.lau, song, yonghong.song, john.fastabend, kpsingh, sdf, haoluo, jolsa, dsahern, netdev On 11/23/23 1:37 PM, Philo Lu wrote: > Sorry, I forgot to cc the maintainers. > > On 2023/11/23 11:07, Philo Lu wrote: >> Add 3 sock_ops operators, namely BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, and BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. A flag >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG is provided to minimize the performance >> impact. The flag must be explicitly set to enable these callbacks. >> >> If the flag is enabled, bpf sock_ops program will be called every time a >> tcp data packet is sent, received, and acked. >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB: call bpf after a data packet is sent. >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB: call bpf after a data packet is receviced. >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB: call bpf after a valid ack packet is >> processed (some sent data are ackknowledged). >> >> We use these callbacks for fine-grained tcp monitoring, which collects >> and analyses every tcp request/response event information. The whole >> system has been described in SIGMOD'18 (see >> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3183713.3190659 for details). To >> achieve this with bpf, we require hooks for data events that call >> sock_ops bpf (1) when any data packet is sent/received/acked, and (2) >> after critical tcp state variables have been updated (e.g., snd_una, >> snd_nxt, rcv_nxt). However, existing sock_ops operators cannot meet our >> requirements. >> >> Besides, these hooks also help to debug tcp when data send/recv/acked. >> >> Signed-off-by: Philo Lu <lulie@linux.alibaba.com> >> --- >> include/net/tcp.h | 9 +++++++++ >> include/uapi/linux/bpf.h | 14 +++++++++++++- >> net/ipv4/tcp_input.c | 4 ++++ >> net/ipv4/tcp_output.c | 2 ++ >> 4 files changed, 28 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-) Please also add selftests for the new hooks, and speaking of the latter looks like this fails current BPF selftests : https://github.com/kernel-patches/bpf/actions/runs/6974541866/job/18980491457 Notice: Success: 502/3526, Skipped: 56, Failed: 1 Error: #348 tcpbpf_user Error: #348 tcpbpf_user test_tcpbpf_user:PASS:open and load skel 0 nsec test_tcpbpf_user:PASS:test__join_cgroup(/tcpbpf-user-test) 0 nsec test_tcpbpf_user:PASS:attach_cgroup(bpf_testcb) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:start_server 0 nsec run_test:PASS:connect_to_fd(listen_fd) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:accept(listen_fd) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:send(cli_fd) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:recv(accept_fd) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:send(accept_fd) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:recv(cli_fd) 0 nsec run_test:PASS:recv(cli_fd) for fin 0 nsec run_test:PASS:recv(accept_fd) for fin 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:event_map 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:bytes_received 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:bytes_acked 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:data_segs_in 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:data_segs_out 0 nsec verify_result:FAIL:bad_cb_test_rv unexpected bad_cb_test_rv: actual 0 != expected 128 verify_result:PASS:good_cb_test_rv 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:num_listen 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:num_close_events 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:tcp_save_syn 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:tcp_saved_syn 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:window_clamp_client 0 nsec verify_result:PASS:window_clamp_server 0 nsec Test Results: bpftool: PASS test_progs: FAIL (returned 1) shutdown: CLEAN Error: Process completed with exit code 1. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events 2023-11-24 9:47 ` Daniel Borkmann @ 2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Philo Lu @ 2023-11-29 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Daniel Borkmann, bpf Cc: xuanzhuo, dust.li, alibuda, guwen, hengqi, edumazet, davem, kuba, pabeni, ast, andrii, martin.lau, song, yonghong.song, john.fastabend, kpsingh, sdf, haoluo, jolsa, dsahern, netdev On 2023/11/24 17:47, Daniel Borkmann wrote: > On 11/23/23 1:37 PM, Philo Lu wrote: >> Sorry, I forgot to cc the maintainers. >> >> On 2023/11/23 11:07, Philo Lu wrote: >>> Add 3 sock_ops operators, namely BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, and BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. A flag >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG is provided to minimize the performance >>> impact. The flag must be explicitly set to enable these callbacks. >>> >>> If the flag is enabled, bpf sock_ops program will be called every >>> time a >>> tcp data packet is sent, received, and acked. >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB: call bpf after a data packet is sent. >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB: call bpf after a data packet is receviced. >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB: call bpf after a valid ack packet is >>> processed (some sent data are ackknowledged). >>> >>> We use these callbacks for fine-grained tcp monitoring, which collects >>> and analyses every tcp request/response event information. The whole >>> system has been described in SIGMOD'18 (see >>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3183713.3190659 for details). To >>> achieve this with bpf, we require hooks for data events that call >>> sock_ops bpf (1) when any data packet is sent/received/acked, and (2) >>> after critical tcp state variables have been updated (e.g., snd_una, >>> snd_nxt, rcv_nxt). However, existing sock_ops operators cannot meet our >>> requirements. >>> >>> Besides, these hooks also help to debug tcp when data send/recv/acked. >>> >>> Signed-off-by: Philo Lu <lulie@linux.alibaba.com> >>> --- >>> include/net/tcp.h | 9 +++++++++ >>> include/uapi/linux/bpf.h | 14 +++++++++++++- >>> net/ipv4/tcp_input.c | 4 ++++ >>> net/ipv4/tcp_output.c | 2 ++ >>> 4 files changed, 28 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-) > > Please also add selftests for the new hooks, and speaking of the latter > looks like this fails current BPF selftests : > > https://github.com/kernel-patches/bpf/actions/runs/6974541866/job/18980491457 > > We will add selftests in the next version. The current selftests fail just because of the new flag added, and we can also fix this in the next version. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events 2023-11-23 12:37 ` [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events Philo Lu 2023-11-24 9:47 ` Daniel Borkmann @ 2023-11-29 0:33 ` Martin KaFai Lau 2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Martin KaFai Lau @ 2023-11-29 0:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Philo Lu Cc: xuanzhuo, dust.li, alibuda, guwen, hengqi, edumazet, davem, kuba, pabeni, ast, daniel, andrii, song, yonghong.song, john.fastabend, kpsingh, sdf, haoluo, jolsa, dsahern, netdev, bpf On 11/23/23 4:37 AM, Philo Lu wrote: > Sorry, I forgot to cc the maintainers. > > On 2023/11/23 11:07, Philo Lu wrote: >> Add 3 sock_ops operators, namely BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, and BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. A flag >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG is provided to minimize the performance >> impact. The flag must be explicitly set to enable these callbacks. >> >> If the flag is enabled, bpf sock_ops program will be called every time a >> tcp data packet is sent, received, and acked. >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB: call bpf after a data packet is sent. >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB: call bpf after a data packet is receviced. >> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB: call bpf after a valid ack packet is >> processed (some sent data are ackknowledged). >> >> We use these callbacks for fine-grained tcp monitoring, which collects >> and analyses every tcp request/response event information. The whole >> system has been described in SIGMOD'18 (see >> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3183713.3190659 for details). To >> achieve this with bpf, we require hooks for data events that call >> sock_ops bpf (1) when any data packet is sent/received/acked, and (2) >> after critical tcp state variables have been updated (e.g., snd_una, >> snd_nxt, rcv_nxt). However, existing sock_ops operators cannot meet our >> requirements. >> >> Besides, these hooks also help to debug tcp when data send/recv/acked. This all sounds like a tracing use case. Why tracepoint is not used instead? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events 2023-11-29 0:33 ` Martin KaFai Lau @ 2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu 2023-11-30 18:13 ` Martin KaFai Lau 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Philo Lu @ 2023-11-29 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martin KaFai Lau Cc: xuanzhuo, dust.li, alibuda, guwen, hengqi, edumazet, davem, kuba, pabeni, ast, daniel, andrii, song, yonghong.song, john.fastabend, kpsingh, sdf, haoluo, jolsa, dsahern, netdev, bpf On 2023/11/29 08:33, Martin KaFai Lau wrote: > On 11/23/23 4:37 AM, Philo Lu wrote: >> Sorry, I forgot to cc the maintainers. >> >> On 2023/11/23 11:07, Philo Lu wrote: >>> Add 3 sock_ops operators, namely BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, and BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. A flag >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG is provided to minimize the performance >>> impact. The flag must be explicitly set to enable these callbacks. >>> >>> If the flag is enabled, bpf sock_ops program will be called every >>> time a >>> tcp data packet is sent, received, and acked. >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB: call bpf after a data packet is sent. >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB: call bpf after a data packet is receviced. >>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB: call bpf after a valid ack packet is >>> processed (some sent data are ackknowledged). >>> >>> We use these callbacks for fine-grained tcp monitoring, which collects >>> and analyses every tcp request/response event information. The whole >>> system has been described in SIGMOD'18 (see >>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3183713.3190659 for details). To >>> achieve this with bpf, we require hooks for data events that call >>> sock_ops bpf (1) when any data packet is sent/received/acked, and (2) >>> after critical tcp state variables have been updated (e.g., snd_una, >>> snd_nxt, rcv_nxt). However, existing sock_ops operators cannot meet our >>> requirements. >>> >>> Besides, these hooks also help to debug tcp when data send/recv/acked. > > This all sounds like a tracing use case. Why tracepoint is not used > instead? Yes, our use case is pure tracing. We add hooks to sockops because we also use other ops like BPF_SOCK_OPS_STATE_CB. Thus, sockops seems a natural solution for us. We can also use tracepoint (with sockops) instead. So we think which to use depends on your opinions. Many thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events 2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu @ 2023-11-30 18:13 ` Martin KaFai Lau 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Martin KaFai Lau @ 2023-11-30 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Philo Lu Cc: xuanzhuo, dust.li, alibuda, guwen, hengqi, edumazet, davem, kuba, pabeni, ast, daniel, andrii, song, yonghong.song, john.fastabend, kpsingh, sdf, haoluo, jolsa, dsahern, netdev, bpf On 11/29/23 2:05 AM, Philo Lu wrote: > > On 2023/11/29 08:33, Martin KaFai Lau wrote: >> On 11/23/23 4:37 AM, Philo Lu wrote: >>> Sorry, I forgot to cc the maintainers. >>> >>> On 2023/11/23 11:07, Philo Lu wrote: >>>> Add 3 sock_ops operators, namely BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB, >>>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB, and BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB. A flag >>>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_EVENT_CB_FLAG is provided to minimize the performance >>>> impact. The flag must be explicitly set to enable these callbacks. >>>> >>>> If the flag is enabled, bpf sock_ops program will be called every time a >>>> tcp data packet is sent, received, and acked. >>>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_SEND_CB: call bpf after a data packet is sent. >>>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_RECV_CB: call bpf after a data packet is receviced. >>>> BPF_SOCK_OPS_DATA_ACKED_CB: call bpf after a valid ack packet is >>>> processed (some sent data are ackknowledged). >>>> >>>> We use these callbacks for fine-grained tcp monitoring, which collects >>>> and analyses every tcp request/response event information. The whole >>>> system has been described in SIGMOD'18 (see >>>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3183713.3190659 for details). To >>>> achieve this with bpf, we require hooks for data events that call >>>> sock_ops bpf (1) when any data packet is sent/received/acked, and (2) >>>> after critical tcp state variables have been updated (e.g., snd_una, >>>> snd_nxt, rcv_nxt). However, existing sock_ops operators cannot meet our >>>> requirements. >>>> >>>> Besides, these hooks also help to debug tcp when data send/recv/acked. >> >> This all sounds like a tracing use case. Why tracepoint is not used instead? > > Yes, our use case is pure tracing. We add hooks to sockops because we also use > other ops like BPF_SOCK_OPS_STATE_CB. Thus, sockops seems a natural solution > for us. There is also an existing trace_inet_sock_set_state() tracepoint for tracking the state change. There are other existing tracepoints in include/trace/events/tcp.h for tcp perf monitoring/analysis purpose (e.g. trace_tcp_retransmit_skb). All it needs is read-only access to sk and the purpose is for tcp perf monitoring/analysis. If a hook is needed here (cgroup-bpf or tracepoint), I would think it is better to supplement the existing tcp tracepoints which were also added to do tcp monitoring. I suspect the fexit bpf prog may also work because the fexit bpf prog is called after the traced kernel function is called. However, the kernel functions may get inlined and the tracepoint will still be needed. May be the netdev maintainer can chime in here regarding the tracepoint additions. > > We can also use tracepoint (with sockops) instead. So we think which to use > depends on your opinions. Many thanks. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
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[not found] <20231123030732.111576-1-lulie@linux.alibaba.com>
2023-11-23 12:37 ` [PATCH bpf-next] bpf: add sock_ops callbacks for data send/recv/acked events Philo Lu
2023-11-24 9:47 ` Daniel Borkmann
2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu
2023-11-29 0:33 ` Martin KaFai Lau
2023-11-29 10:05 ` Philo Lu
2023-11-30 18:13 ` Martin KaFai Lau
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