[Qemu-devel] Re: SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU

[Qemu-devel] Re: SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU

[François Revol]

Le 28 févr. 2011 à 20:54, qemu-devel-request@nongnu.org a écrit :

> I proposed on GSoC 2010 to cleanup and finish the WIP that was done on 0.9.0 for emulation Acorn Archimedes platform.
> It was going to be mentored by Paul Brook but no one took the project, so the proposal is still up.
> I cannot mentor it as I know nothing about ARM.
> 
> Check on 	http://wiki.qemu.org/Google_Summer_of_Code_2011#Enhance.2C_update_and_integrate_Acorn_Archimedes_system_emulation

Oh, interesting list there...

I see someone wants BeBox support.
I already started on this but it doesn't do much yet.

There are also several other 68k machines that could be fun to support once the m68k branch is in shape in addition to NeXT, like Atari ST/Falcon and Amiga, and there are existing emulators for those to look at.

And I need 68k emulators to finish my Haiku port :-)

François.

Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU

[Natalia Portillo]

Hi,

El 28/02/2011, a las 22:57, François Revol escribió:

> 
> Le 28 févr. 2011 à 20:54, qemu-devel-request@nongnu.org a écrit :
> 
>> I proposed on GSoC 2010 to cleanup and finish the WIP that was done on 0.9.0 for emulation Acorn Archimedes platform.
>> It was going to be mentored by Paul Brook but no one took the project, so the proposal is still up.
>> I cannot mentor it as I know nothing about ARM.
>> 
>> Check on 	http://wiki.qemu.org/Google_Summer_of_Code_2011#Enhance.2C_update_and_integrate_Acorn_Archimedes_system_emulation
> 
> Oh, interesting list there...
> 
> I see someone wants BeBox support.
> I already started on this but it doesn't do much yet.
Loading Be's firmware or with a custom one?

> There are also several other 68k machines that could be fun to support once the m68k branch is in shape in addition to NeXT, like Atari ST/Falcon and Amiga, and there are existing emulators for those to look at.
Well, there are thousands of 68k machines, however the ones nobody emulates are of more interest. (Unless your Atari ST and Amiga emulation pretends to support things no other does, like Amiga UNIX, Apple UNIX)

> And I need 68k emulators to finish my Haiku port :-)
Interesting

Regards,
Natalia Portillo

Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU

[François Revol]

Le 1 mars 2011 à 00:19, Natalia Portillo a écrit :

>> I see someone wants BeBox support.
>> I already started on this but it doesn't do much yet.
> Loading Be's firmware or with a custom one?

I wrote a loader for their boot nub.
It currently starts by probing the PCI bridge and that's about it.

The boot nub can be extracted from the floppy images from there:
http://www.bebox.nu/tech.php?s=tech/bootROM/download
with this script:
http://revolf.free.fr/beos/extract_bebox_images.sh

I shall post a patch someday.

>> There are also several other 68k machines that could be fun to support once the m68k branch is in shape in addition to NeXT, like Atari ST/Falcon and Amiga, and there are existing emulators for those to look at.
> Well, there are thousands of 68k machines, however the ones nobody emulates are of more interest.

Indeed, and I'd love to get Haiku to boot on a NeXT :-)

> (Unless your Atari ST and Amiga emulation pretends to support things no other does, like Amiga UNIX, Apple UNIX)

Well, most of those emulators do not support the required mmu, except ARAnyM (and their mmu patch was backported to UAE I think).

A/UX would be fun to run :-)
There used to be UNIX for Atari TT also IIRC, though not sure it was ever published.

>> And I need 68k emulators to finish my Haiku port :-)
> Interesting

http://www.haiku-os.org/blog/mmu_man/2008-08-03/helping_on_m68k

Some recent stuff:
http://revolf.free.fr/beos/shots/shot_haiku_loader_m68k_amiga_vs_atari.png
http://revolf.free.fr/beos/shots/shot_haiku_loader_atari_m68k_splash_001.png

François.

Re: [Qemu-devel] 68k and BeBox (was SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU)

[Natalia Portillo]

Hi,

> Indeed, and I'd love to get Haiku to boot on a NeXT :-)
I'd love to boot NeXTStep/m68k even on emulation.

>> (Unless your Atari ST and Amiga emulation pretends to support things no other does, like Amiga UNIX, Apple UNIX)
> 
> Well, most of those emulators do not support the required mmu, except ARAnyM (and their mmu patch was backported to UAE I think).
That's the main problem, but first of all in QEMU there is the need for complete pre-Coldfire 68ks, as well as the modular support for FPUs and MMU (Sun and Apple's Lisa)

Currently the fastest ones would be BeBox, Mac68k and NeXT machines, because almost all devices are already emulated, but the assembly itself, firmware and CPU/FPU/MMU in case of 68k.

> A/UX would be fun to run :-)
> There used to be UNIX for Atari TT also IIRC, though not sure it was ever published.
There is a binary dump somewhere, I may have it.

Regards,
Natalia Portillo

Re: [Qemu-devel] 68k and BeBox (was SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU)

[François Revol]

Le 1 mars 2011 à 01:18, Natalia Portillo a écrit :

>> Well, most of those emulators do not support the required mmu, except ARAnyM (and their mmu patch was backported to UAE I think).
> That's the main problem, but first of all in QEMU there is the need for complete pre-Coldfire 68ks, as well as the modular support for FPUs and MMU (Sun and Apple's Lisa)

Yeah old Sun stuff used their own mmu due to missing support in pre-020 for some insn restart.

> Currently the fastest ones would be BeBox, Mac68k and NeXT machines, because almost all devices are already emulated, but the assembly itself, firmware and CPU/FPU/MMU in case of 68k.

IIRC the Mac68k hardware is quite obscure and model-dependant... but EMILE and BasiliskII should say enough.

Just posted my BeBox patch btw.

>> A/UX would be fun to run :-)
>> There used to be UNIX for Atari TT also IIRC, though not sure it was ever published.
> There is a binary dump somewhere, I may have it.

So should I, just can't recall where I left it.

François.

Re: [Qemu-devel] 68k and BeBox (was SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU)

[Laurent Vivier]

Le mardi 01 mars 2011 à 01:23 +0100, François Revol a écrit :
> Le 1 mars 2011 à 01:18, Natalia Portillo a écrit :
> 
> >> Well, most of those emulators do not support the required mmu, except ARAnyM (and their mmu patch was backported to UAE I think).
> > That's the main problem, but first of all in QEMU there is the need for complete pre-Coldfire 68ks, as well as the modular support for FPUs and MMU (Sun and Apple's Lisa)
> 
> Yeah old Sun stuff used their own mmu due to missing support in pre-020 for some insn restart.
> 
> > Currently the fastest ones would be BeBox, Mac68k and NeXT machines, because almost all devices are already emulated, but the assembly itself, firmware and CPU/FPU/MMU in case of 68k.
> 
> IIRC the Mac68k hardware is quite obscure and model-dependant... 
> but EMILE and BasiliskII should say enough.

They will not help you:
- EMILE uses Mac ROM to access hardware
- BasiliskII patches the ROM to call its internal drivers instead of
accessing hardware.

The best source for hardware definition is linux...
If it can help I think I have all hardware reference manuals for m68k
macintosh.

> Just posted my BeBox patch btw.
> 
> >> A/UX would be fun to run :-)
> >> There used to be UNIX for Atari TT also IIRC, though not sure it was ever published.
> > There is a binary dump somewhere, I may have it.
> 
> So should I, just can't recall where I left it.
> 
> François.

-- 
--------------------- laurent@vivier.eu ----------------------
"Tout ce qui est impossible reste à accomplir"    Jules Verne
"Things are only impossible until they're not" Jean-Luc Picard

Re: [Qemu-devel] 68k and BeBox (was SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU)

[François Revol]

Le 1 mars 2011 à 13:02, Laurent Vivier a écrit :
>>> Currently the fastest ones would be BeBox, Mac68k and NeXT machines, because almost all devices are already emulated, but the assembly itself, firmware and CPU/FPU/MMU in case of 68k.
>> 
>> IIRC the Mac68k hardware is quite obscure and model-dependant... 
>> but EMILE and BasiliskII should say enough.
> 
> They will not help you:
> - EMILE uses Mac ROM to access hardware
> - BasiliskII patches the ROM to call its internal drivers instead of
> accessing hardware.

Oh right, I was sure there was a trick somewhere :)

> The best source for hardware definition is linux...

Or NetBSD, if you don't have enough aspirin for Linux.
http://www.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/

And I have an LCIII around for testing.

As well for the BeBox:
http://www.netbsd.org/ports/bebox/hardware.html

> If it can help I think I have all hardware reference manuals for m68k
> macintosh.

Actually I think they used to be online until recently, but Apple revamped their archived not too long ago IIRC.

François.

Re: [Qemu-devel] 68k and BeBox (was SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU)

[Natalia Portillo]

Hi,

El 01/03/2011, a las 12:06, François Revol escribió:

> 
> Le 1 mars 2011 à 13:02, Laurent Vivier a écrit :
>>>> Currently the fastest ones would be BeBox, Mac68k and NeXT machines, because almost all devices are already emulated, but the assembly itself, firmware and CPU/FPU/MMU in case of 68k.
>>> 
>>> IIRC the Mac68k hardware is quite obscure and model-dependant... 
>>> but EMILE and BasiliskII should say enough.
>> 
>> They will not help you:
>> - EMILE uses Mac ROM to access hardware
>> - BasiliskII patches the ROM to call its internal drivers instead of
>> accessing hardware.
That's what MacOS itself does.
Indeed there is a document on how Mac OS X Server boots somewhere deep in the Apple's support page that describe the various patching methods they use to boot on m68k (for A/UX), OldWorld and NewWorld machines.
Remember that the Mac ROM, is the majority of the Mac OS APIs, that may be used or patched in RAM depending on the Mac OS version running.

vMac however is emulating the hardware more exactly.

> 
>> If it can help I think I have all hardware reference manuals for m68k
>> macintosh.
> 
> Actually I think they used to be online until recently, but Apple revamped their archived not too long ago IIRC.

For up to Mac II they are in the Inside Macintosh books, from them up to PowerPC you'll need to guess it, and for the cloneable systems, there is information in Apple Developer CDs.

Regards,
Natalia Portillo

Re: [Qemu-devel] 68k and BeBox (was SymbianOS, MeeGO, WebOS and QEMU)

[Bastien ROUCARIES]

Le mardi 1 mars 2011 15:51:49, Natalia Portillo a écrit :
> > Actually I think they used to be online until recently, but Apple
> > revamped their archived not too long ago IIRC.
> 
> For up to Mac II they are in the Inside Macintosh books, from them up to
> PowerPC you'll need to guess it, and for the cloneable systems, there is
> information in Apple Developer CDs.
> 
> Regards,
> Natalia Portillo

It could also resurect the debian mk68 port... 

It will be really nice to target the main machine used at debian port ask to Thorsten Glaser

Bastien