[Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Thomas Munn]

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While I am not among those who are enlightened enought to talk about
opcodes and their proper optimization, I do have a few observations to
make, having watched this list for 2 months.
 
1.  People really don't like newcomers on this list.  
2.  QEMU-USERS would be great, if it actually worked.  I have asked on
the list TWICE now, with absolutely no comment (or way to get
qemu-users) working.  The interface fails, and messages never get
anywhere.  Unless this is a tricky INTENT, in that users will just go to
/dev/null.  Which is fine, if the project just wants to be for gear
heads.
3.  QEMU is rather DIFFICULT to use.  I have been a UNIX admin for 10
years, am fairly conversant in iptables etc.  Yet my firewalling
questions were ignored THREE times.  Firewalling a host is a cool
concept, I can have "trusted boxes" and make sure they only talk to whom
they are supposed to.  I figured out MYSELF that you have to filter on
the FORWARD chain.  No one was even kind enough to respond "RTFM" or
"You need to filter on the forward chain."  Its Not in the docs etc.
Most people wouldn't be able to do this( e.g figure out how to firewall
guest os).  Again, if you want gearheads only, then fine.  
4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing
documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.  The
existing documentation simply does not cover in high detail how to get
qemu working.  For example, I found it very confusing on what qemu-fast
is for.  A simple "QEMU-FAST ONLY works with linux at this time.  You
must install a working GUEST image, apply the appropriate patch to the
GUEST kernel, and then run qemu-fast.  DO NOT TRY to use QEMU-FAST
otherwise.  It will simply segfault!  
 
I will be posting the document to this list.  If anyone else has any
suggestions, I will incorporate them into a professional, and complete
document designed for the newcomer.
 
My perspective of this document, will, alas, only be from the linux
corner, as I do not use QEMU in windows......(as a host os)
 
Something akin to the GENTOO install handbook would be the caliber I
would be shooting for.
 
Sincerely,
 
Thomas J. Munn

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Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Kai Cherry]

Let me sum up all my thoughts on your post:
Thank You :)

Not only do i find the hostility *completly counterproductive* I also 
believe it is totally unmerited.

We aren't getting dumb questions, but what I see as valid points to at 
least think about.

And now, for a simple, but effective suggestion.

Fabrice, or whomever, can we get a simple key:value config file for the 
commandline switches?

I'd do it, but it would be biased towards xml so it could be easily be 
worked into a .plist for OS X...but I think most folks could be better 
served by a "flat file" key/val scheme.

This way, any/all "useless" GUI's could at least have a common format 
to look for, and write options to.

-K

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Johannes Martin]

Hi,

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Thomas Munn wrote:
> While I am not among those who are enlightened enought to talk about
> opcodes and their proper optimization, I do have a few observations to
> make, having watched this list for 2 months.
> [...]
> 4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing
> documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.
> [...]
> I will be posting the document to this list.  If anyone else has any
> suggestions, I will incorporate them into a professional, and complete
> document designed for the newcomer.

Just a thought: there is a Wiki for Qemu (see link on Qemu home page).
Couldn't we use this Wiki to collect documentation, tips, tricks and
patches for Qemu?

Quite a few patches and even some mini-tutorials have been sent to the
list, but if Hetz wasn't collecting them on dad-answers they would be
pretty much lost. Using the Wiki would also have the advantage that people
could post comments on these patches right in place.

Also, documentation could be improved and extended by whoever feels up to
doing it.


	Johannes

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Lionel Ulmer]

> 4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing
> documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.  The
> existing documentation simply does not cover in high detail how to get
> qemu working.  For example, I found it very confusing on what qemu-fast
> is for.  A simple "QEMU-FAST ONLY works with linux at this time.  You
> must install a working GUEST image, apply the appropriate patch to the
> GUEST kernel, and then run qemu-fast.  DO NOT TRY to use QEMU-FAST
> otherwise.  It will simply segfault!

<Aggressive Gear-Head mode=ON>

http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/qemu-doc.html#SEC7

So maybe you did not look long enough ?

<Aggressive Gear-Head mode=OFF>

          Lionel

-- 
		 Lionel Ulmer - http://www.bbrox.org/

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Kai Cherry]

You made my day :) STILL laughing!

-K


On Sep 1, 2004, at 4:38 PM, Magnus Damm wrote:

>
>> 1.  People really don't like newcomers on this list.
>
> Is that so? I think people seem to be pretty nice to each other here,
> but I might have been reading too much mplayer-dev-eng OTOH.

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Magnus Damm]

Hello Thomas,

> 1.  People really don't like newcomers on this list.  

Is that so? I think people seem to be pretty nice to each other here,
but I might have been reading too much mplayer-dev-eng OTOH.

> 2.  QEMU-USERS would be great, if it actually worked.

Is the list broken? Or is no one answering? I think that we need to
separate these things. I am not subscribed to that list, mainly because
I'm more interested in the development part. If the list is broken then
someone should fix it.

> 3.  QEMU is rather DIFFICULT to use.

I think that depends on what you want to do. It is quite easy to just
boot a DOS floppy compared to have a fully networked guest OS. I
personally believe that the networking part is very tricky with
different modes and their pros and cons.

> 4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing
> documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.

Great! Hopefully this will attract more non-developers that can share
their experience with each other. 

Thanks!

/ magnus

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Derek Fawcus]

On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:38:09PM +0200, Magnus Damm wrote:
> 
> > 2.  QEMU-USERS would be great, if it actually worked.
> 
> Is the list broken? Or is no one answering?

I suspect it's broke.  I believe I subscribed,  but I can't recall ever
receiving a message from it.

DF

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Lindsay Mathieson]

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Thomas Munn wrote:

> While I am not among those who are enlightened enought to talk about 
> opcodes and their proper optimization, I do have a few observations to 
> make, having watched this list for 2 months.
>  
> 1.  People really don't like newcomers on this list.

As a newbie from a few weeks ago, that is *not* my experience, people 
have been quite helpful.


> 3.  QEMU is rather DIFFICULT to use.  I have been a UNIX admin for 10 
> years.

Well I haven't, and I managed fine. I would venture to say that qemu is 
*not* for casual users at the moment, its in heavy dev and prone to 
breaking :(

> 4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing 
> documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.  The 
> existing documentation simply does not cover in high detail how to get 
> qemu working.  For example, I found it very confusing on what 
> qemu-fast is for.  A simple "QEMU-FAST ONLY works with linux at this 
> time.  You must install a working GUEST image, apply the appropriate 
> patch to the GUEST kernel, and then run qemu-fast.  DO NOT TRY to use 
> QEMU-FAST otherwise.  It will simply segfault!

Thats great - thanks, gotta admit I spent a long time trying to get 
qemu-fast working before I realised it was the guest that was patched, 
not the host :)



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Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Bochnig, Martin]

Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
> Thomas Munn wrote:
> 
>> While I am not among those who are enlightened enought to talk about 
>> opcodes and their proper optimization, I do have a few observations to 
>> make, having watched this list for 2 months.
>>  
>> 1.  People really don't like newcomers on this list.
> 
> As a newbie from a few weeks ago, that is *not* my experience, people 
> have been quite helpful.

I can only confirm the latter: Pretty helpful suggestions, comments and 
help.

>> 3.  QEMU is rather DIFFICULT to use.  I have been a UNIX admin for 10 
>> years.
How do you define "UNIX admin" ?  *lol*
> 
> Well I haven't, and I managed fine. I would venture to say that qemu is 
> *not* for casual users at the moment, its in heavy dev and prone to 
> breaking :(
> 
>> 4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing 
>> documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.  The 
>> existing documentation simply does not cover in high detail how to get 
>> qemu working.

How to start a terminal window?

   For example, I found it very confusing on what
>> qemu-fast is for.  A simple "QEMU-FAST ONLY works with linux at this 
>> time.  You must install a working GUEST image, apply the appropriate 
>> patch to the GUEST kernel, and then run qemu-fast.  DO NOT TRY to use 
>> QEMU-FAST otherwise.  It will simply segfault!

Did you ever visit QEMU's mainpage?
If so, did you read anything?

Martin Bochnig
QEMU newbie
SCSecA Solaris 9
SCNA   Solaris 9, 8
SCSA   Solaris 9, 8
Student of Maths ans BSciIT

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Johannes Martin]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Derek Fawcus wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:38:09PM +0200, Magnus Damm wrote:
> > > 2.  QEMU-USERS would be great, if it actually worked.
> > Is the list broken? Or is no one answering?
> I suspect it's broke.  I believe I subscribed,  but I can't recall ever
> receiving a message from it.
I never tried to subscribe, but I see some indications for the list being
broken:
- it does not show up in the list of lists on nongnu.org (qemu-devel does
  show up)
- the archive link is broken
- lots of messages on this list from users not being able to subscribe
  (starting right after Fabrice announced the existence of the new list,
   and since all the complainants seemed to be able to subscribe to
   qemu-devel without problems I think it's quite likely that it isn't
   their inability to handle the list interface that prevents them from
   subscribing successfully).

Fabrice has created the list and is currently the list admin. He is
currently the only one who can fix it unless he transfers ownership to
somebody else.

Johannes

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Jim C. Brown]

On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 03:11:30PM -0400, Thomas Munn wrote:
> While I am not among those who are enlightened enought to talk about
> opcodes and their proper optimization, I do have a few observations to
> make, having watched this list for 2 months.
>  
> 1.  People really don't like newcomers on this list.  

Some of us do.

> 2.  QEMU-USERS would be great, if it actually worked.  I have asked on
> the list TWICE now, with absolutely no comment (or way to get
> qemu-users) working.  The interface fails, and messages never get
> anywhere.  Unless this is a tricky INTENT, in that users will just go to
> /dev/null.  Which is fine, if the project just wants to be for gear
> heads.

>From what I've heard, no one has. Apparently Bellard doesn't have enough time
to fix the problems .... I wouldn't know. This is a must. Perhaps a user-sponsored
list can be setup in the meantime, and those who ask about QEMU-USERS on this
list will be pointed to there.

> 3.  QEMU is rather DIFFICULT to use.  I have been a UNIX admin for 10
> years, am fairly conversant in iptables etc.  Yet my firewalling
> questions were ignored THREE times.  Firewalling a host is a cool
> concept, I can have "trusted boxes" and make sure they only talk to whom
> they are supposed to.  I figured out MYSELF that you have to filter on
> the FORWARD chain.  No one was even kind enough to respond "RTFM" or
> "You need to filter on the forward chain."  Its Not in the docs etc.
> Most people wouldn't be able to do this( e.g figure out how to firewall
> guest os).  Again, if you want gearheads only, then fine.  

Well, this (firewall) has been asked so many times that it gets annoying.

If you had searched the mail archive, you would have found your answer.

To be fair, a question this common should have been in the FAQ.
So should have the example scripts that others have posted. Etc.

> 4.  I am compiling a list of my difficulties, and will be writing
> documentation to help people setting qemu for the first time.  The
> existing documentation simply does not cover in high detail how to get
> qemu working.  For example, I found it very confusing on what qemu-fast
> is for.  A simple "QEMU-FAST ONLY works with linux at this time.  You
> must install a working GUEST image, apply the appropriate patch to the
> GUEST kernel, and then run qemu-fast.  DO NOT TRY to use QEMU-FAST
> otherwise.  It will simply segfault!  

This has been asked even more often. It is even more annoying. And this actually
is in the docs (last I checked anyways). Even if its gone, it is still in the
mail archive. One should check this first, before posting to the list.

>  
> I will be posting the document to this list.  If anyone else has any
> suggestions, I will incorporate them into a professional, and complete
> document designed for the newcomer.

This is good news. There are several HOWTOs out there for some specific stuff
w/ qemu (how to use win98 as a guest or how to use VDE for networking) but a
newbie manual would be an invaluable resource.

>  
> My perspective of this document, will, alas, only be from the linux
> corner, as I do not use QEMU in windows......(as a host os)

Odds are good that if you start, others will help.

>  
> Something akin to the GENTOO install handbook would be the caliber I
> would be shooting for.
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> Thomas J. Munn

> _______________________________________________
> Qemu-devel mailing list
> Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel


-- 
Infinite complexity begets infinite beauty.
Infinite precision begets infinite perfection.

Re: [Qemu-devel] Attitute and Predisposition of the List & newbie documets

[Jim C. Brown]

On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 03:22:19PM -0400, Kai Cherry wrote:
> We aren't getting dumb questions, but what I see as valid points to at 
> least think about.
> 
> And now, for a simple, but effective suggestion.
> 
> Fabrice, or whomever, can we get a simple key:value config file for the 
> commandline switches?
> 

I guess the .qmu config files don't work. Attached is the script I use to
give me key=value config files for the command line switches. I've posted
this before but no one took notice then.

I would have said "just search the mail archive for it" but apparently attached
files don't always work ... so in this case it's possible you might have looked
(and even found it) but couldn't download it. I attach it here as text so others
won't have this problem next time.

Since config file support clearly exists for qemu (the bottom of this email
proves it), either accept it/improve it, write your own code to replace it,
or reject it and stop complaining.

> I'd do it, but it would be biased towards xml so it could be easily be 
> worked into a .plist for OS X...but I think most folks could be better 
> served by a "flat file" key/val scheme.
> 
> This way, any/all "useless" GUI's could at least have a common format 
> to look for, and write options to.

Agreed.

> 
> -K
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Qemu-devel mailing list
> Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel
> 

-- 
#! /bin/sh

# locate the config file
if [ "$1" = "-config" ]; then
	conffile=$2
	shift 2
else
	conffile=./.qemurc
fi

# hard-coded defaults here
qemu=
vde=off
boot=harddisk
megs=32
fda=
fdb=
hda=
hdachs=
hdb=
cdrom=
hdc=
hdd=
audio=off
pci=on
macaddr=
cirrus=off
localtime=off
usernet=off
nics=1
netscript=/etc/qemu-ifup
graphic=on

# if we have a valid config file, load it
if [ -f $conffile ]; then
	. $conffile
fi

# sanity check
if [ -z "$boot" ]; then
	echo 'Option boot must be set to floppy, harddisk, or cdrom, or'
	echo 'the decapriated options a, c, or d!'
	exit 1
fi
if [ -z "$megs" ]; then
#TODO: make sure this is a number
	echo 'Option megs must be set to a valid number!'
	exit 1
fi
if [ -z "$nics" ]; then
#TODO: make sure this is a number
	echo 'Option nics must be set to a valid number! (most likely this number will be 1)'
	exit 1
fi
if [ -z "$netscript" ]; then
	echo 'Warning: option netscript is not set. Will use /etc/qemu-ifup if asked.'
fi

#if [ "$boot" = "floppy" -o "$boot" = "a" ]; then
	#if [ -z "$fda" ]; then
		#echo 'Option fda must be set to a valid floppy image!'
		#exit 1
	#fi
#elif [ "$boot" = "harddisk" -o "$boot" = "c" ]; then
	#if [ -z "$hda" ]; then
		#echo 'Option hda must be set to a valid hard disk image!'
		#exit 1
	#fi
#elif [ "$boot" = "cdrom" -o "$boot" = "d" ]; then
	#if [ -z "$cdrom" ]; then
		#echo 'Option cdrom must be set to a valid cdrom iso image!'
		#exit 1
	#fi
#else
	# sanity check
	#echo -n "Option boot set to unknown value $boot. "
	#echo 'I don't know what to do!'
	#exit 1
#fi

# convert recommended values to the one qemu expects
if [ "$boot" = "floppy" ]; then
	boot=a
elif [ "$boot" = "harddisk" ]; then
	boot=c
elif [ "$boot" = "cdrom" ]; then
	boot=d
fi

# isa hack (Note that setting $pci overrides $isa completely)
if [ -z "$pci" ]; then
	if [ "$isa" = "on" ]; then
		pci = off
	else
		pci = on
	fi
fi

# interpret out configuration
comline=`which qemu`
if [ -n "$qemu" ]; then
	comline="$qemu"
fi
if [ "$vde" = "on" ]; then
	comline="vdeq $comline"
fi
comline="$comline -boot $boot"
comline="$comline -m $megs"
if [ -n "$fda" ]; then
	comline="$comline -fda $fda"
fi
if [ -n "$fdb" ]; then
	comline="$comline -fdb $fdb"
fi
if [ -n "$hda" ]; then
	comline="$comline -hda $hda"
fi
if [ -n "$hdachs" ]; then
	comline="$comline -hdachs $hdachs"
fi
if [ -n "$hdb" ]; then
	comline="$comline -hdb $hdb"
fi
if [ -n "$cdrom" ]; then
	comline="$comline -cdrom $cdrom"
fi
if [ -n "$hdc" ]; then
	comline="$comline -hda $hdc"
fi
if [ -n "$hdd" ]; then
	comline="$comline -hda $hdd"
fi
if [ "$audio" = "on" ]; then
	comline="$comline -enable-audio"
fi
if [ "$pci" != "on" ]; then
	comline="$comline -isa"
fi
if [ -n "$macaddr" ]; then
	comline="$comline -macaddr $macaddr"
fi
if [ "$cirrus" != "on" ]; then
	#comline="$comline -cirrusvga"
	comline="$comline -std-vga"
fi
if [ "$localtime" = "on" ]; then
	comline="$comline -localtime"
fi
if [ "$usernet" = "on" ]; then
	comline="$comline -user-net"
elif [ "$usernet" = "dummy" ]; then
	comline="$comline -dummy-net"
fi
# Don't pass the parameter if it is the qemu default
if [ "$nics" != "1" ]; then
	comline="$comline -nics $nics"
fi
if [ -n "$netscript" ]; then
	# Don't pass the parameter if it is the qemu default
	if [ "$netscript" != "/etc/qemu-ifup" ]; then
		comline="$comline -n $netscript"
	fi
fi
if [ "$graphic" != "on" ]; then
	comline="$comline -nographic"
fi
comline="$comline -monitor stdio -serial pty -no-sdl-grab"
echo $comline "$@"
exec $comline "$@"