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Tsirkin" To: David Woodhouse Cc: Richard Cochran , Peter Hilber , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, virtualization@lists.linux.dev, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org, "Ridoux, Julien" , virtio-dev@lists.linux.dev, "Luu, Ryan" , "Chashper, David" , "Mohamed Abuelfotoh, Hazem" , "Christopher S . Hall" , Jason Wang , John Stultz , netdev@vger.kernel.org, Stephen Boyd , Thomas Gleixner , Xuan Zhuo , Marc Zyngier , Mark Rutland , Daniel Lezcano , Alessandro Zummo , Alexandre Belloni , qemu-devel , Simon Horman Subject: Re: [PATCH] ptp: Add vDSO-style vmclock support Message-ID: <20240725170328-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> References: <20240725082828-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20240725083215-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <98813a70f6d3377d3a9d502fd175be97334fcc87.camel@infradead.org> <20240725100351-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <2a27205bfc61e19355d360f428a98e2338ff68c3.camel@infradead.org> <20240725122603-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <0959390cad71b451dc19e5f9396d3f4fdb8fd46f.camel@infradead.org> <20240725163843-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=170.10.129.124; envelope-from=mst@redhat.com; helo=us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com X-Spam_score_int: -21 X-Spam_score: -2.2 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.144, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 10:00:24PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Thu, 2024-07-25 at 16:50 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 08:35:40PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > On Thu, 2024-07-25 at 12:38 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 04:18:43PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > > > The use case isn't necessarily for all users of gettimeofday(), of > > > > > course; this is for those applications which *need* precision time. > > > > > Like distributed databases which rely on timestamps for coherency, and > > > > > users who get fined millions of dollars when LM messes up their clocks > > > > > and they put wrong timestamps on financial transactions. > > > > > > > > I would however worry that with all this pass through, > > > > applications have to be coded to each hypervisor or even > > > > version of the hypervisor. > > > > > > Yes, that would be a problem. Which is why I feel it's so important to > > > harmonise the contents of the shared memory, and I'm implementing it > > > both QEMU and $DAYJOB, as well as aligning with virtio-rtc. > > > > > > Writing an actual spec for this would be another thing that might help. > > > > > > I don't think the structure should be changing between hypervisors (and > > > especially versions). We *will* see a progression from simply providing > > > the disruption signal, to providing the full clock information so that > > > guests don't have to abort transactions while they resync their clock. > > > But that's perfectly fine. > > > > > > And it's also entirely agnostic to the mechanism by which the memory > > > region is *discovered*. It doesn't matter if it's ACPI, DT, a > > > hypervisor enlightenment, a BAR of a simple PCI device, virtio, or > > > anything else. > > > > > > ACPI is one of the *simplest* options for a hypervisor and guest to > > > implement, and doesn't prevent us from using the same structure in > > > virtio-rtc. I'm happy enough using ACPI and letting virtio-rtc come > > > along later. > > > > > > > virtio has been developed with the painful experience that we keep > > > > making mistakes, or coming up with new needed features, > > > > and that maintaining forward and backward compatibility > > > > becomes a whole lot harder than it seems in the beginning. > > > > > > Yes. But as you note, this shared memory structure is a userspace ABI > > > all of its own, so we get to make a completely *different* kind of > > > mistake :) > > > > > > > > > So, something I still don't completely understand. > > Can't the VDSO thing be written to by kernel? > > Let's say on LM, an interrupt triggers and kernel copies > > data from a specific device to the VDSO. > > > > Is that problematic somehow? I imagine there is a race where > > userspace reads vdso after lm but before kernel updated > > vdso - is that the concern? > > > > Then can't we fix it by interrupting all CPUs right after LM? > > > > To me that seems like a cleaner approach - we then compartmentalize > > the ABI issue - kernel has its own ABI against userspace, > > devices have their own ABI against kernel. > > It'd mean we need a way to detect that interrupt was sent, > > maybe yet another counter inside that structure. > > > > WDYT? > > > > By the way the same idea would work for snapshots - > > some people wanted to expose that info to userspace, too. > > > was there supposed to be text here, or did you just like this so much you decided to repost my mail ;) -- MST