From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F11D2CAC5AE for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 17:48:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v177D-0008D4-Sl; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 13:47:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v177B-0008Cp-7H for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 13:47:45 -0400 Received: from casper.infradead.org ([2001:8b0:10b:1236::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v1778-0001HN-0u for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 13:47:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=el/r33LCTx8sq3IjgLlIJQ0Sy62EXbhAmHMnx1vTPdI=; b=D8PdYTLrY0UZVX6jWze71dhTza ad7a0t0wjwV3/bIf6pCrsUc3ihSpgRx45/x0NXOEP8F7PJ8s8uRJLnf8eBWGcThSU8nSDnaR2IqUW ogdxPVPulws6zFDfUTqboVhWEhtcZZmGah7E/7QSOFGySRUGc5f2CPzbb5VMawQxuwNUxkewzSWAe RNgRiDd5kDJZhJ0qdEjwGpxneBKdgst/MFuWwDpFFaRl4Nxg5Tcul/t1CYgepux0wAc7FgSGQH1Y2 1b747PUaJSyO/TisoVFsk+sj0MO2sSOPwwIzrr8UmHxK4fIpa7PQST4jrsZlo55x4bGpzv41C/9A+ 9ub1iMnQ==; Received: from [54.239.6.190] (helo=u09cd745991455d.ant.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.98.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1v1772-0000000GSUd-0hAm; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 17:47:36 +0000 Message-ID: <2e958c58d1d1f0107475b3d91f7a6f2a28da13de.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: Should QEMU (accel=kvm) kvm-clock/guest_tsc stop counting during downtime blackout? From: David Woodhouse To: Dongli Zhang , qemu-devel@nongnu.org Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 18:47:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <2d375ec3-a071-4ae3-b03a-05a823c48016@oracle.com> <3d30b662b8cdb2d25d9b4c5bae98af1c45fac306.camel@infradead.org> <1e9f9c64-af03-466b-8212-ce5c828aac6e@oracle.com> <7d91b34c-36fe-44ee-8a2a-fb00eaebddd8@oracle.com> <71b79d3819b5f5435b7bc7d8c451be0d276e02db.camel@infradead.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-4sxJyxtKia8vBAt4pR9G" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html Received-SPF: none client-ip=2001:8b0:10b:1236::1; envelope-from=BATV+c9925e9796c0bf3b58bb+8066+infradead.org+dwmw2@casper.srs.infradead.org; helo=casper.infradead.org X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org --=-4sxJyxtKia8vBAt4pR9G Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2025-09-23 at 10:25 -0700, Dongli Zhang wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/23/25 9:26 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Mon, 2025-09-22 at 12:37 -0700, Dongli Zhang wrote: > > > On 9/22/25 11:16 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: >=20 > [snip] >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > As demonstrated in my test, currently guest_tsc doesn't stop coun= ting during > > > > > blackout because of the lack of "MSR_IA32_TSC put" at > > > > > kvmclock_vm_state_change(). Per my understanding, it is a bug and= we may need to > > > > > fix it. > > > > >=20 > > > > > BTW, kvmclock_vm_state_change() already utilizes KVM_SET_CLOCK to= re-configure > > > > > kvm-clock before continuing the guest VM. > >=20 > > Yeah, right now it's probably just introducing errors for a stop/start > > of the VM. >=20 > But that help can meet the expectation? >=20 > Thanks to KVM_GET_CLOCK and KVM_SET_CLOCK, QEMU saves the clock with > KVM_GET_CLOCK when the VM is stopped, and restores it with KVM_SET_CLOCK = when > the VM is continued. It saves the actual *value* of the clock. I would prefer to phrase that as "it makes the clock jump backwards to the time at which the guest was paused". > This ensures that the clock value itself does not change between stop and= cont. >=20 > However, QEMU does not adjust the TSC offset via MSR_IA32_TSC during stop= . >=20 > As a result, when execution resumes, the guest TSC suddenly jumps forward= . Oh wow, that seems really broken. If we're going to make it experience a time warp, we should at least be *consistent*. So a guest which uses the TSC for timekeeping should be mostly unaffected by this and its wallclock should still be accurate. A guest which uses the KVM clock will be hosed by it. I think we should fix this so that the KVM clock is unaffected too. > >=20 > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > KVM already lets you restore the TSC correctly. To restore KVM = clock > > > > > > correctly, you want something like KVM_SET_CLOCK_GUEST from > > > > > > https://lore.kernel.org/all/20240522001817.619072-4-dwmw2@infra= dead.org/ > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > For cross machine migration, you *do* need to use a realtime cl= ock > > > > > > reference as that's the best you have (make sure you use TAI no= t UTC > > > > > > and don't get affected by leap seconds or smearing). Use that t= o > > > > > > restore the *TSC* as well as you can to make it appear to have = kept > > > > > > running consistently. And then KVM_SET_CLOCK_GUEST just as you = would on > > > > > > the same host. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Indeed QEMU Live Migration also relies on kvmclock_vm_state_chang= e() to > > > > > temporarily stop/cont the source/target VM. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Would you mean we expect something different for live migration, = i.e., > > > > >=20 > > > > > 1. Live Migrate a source VM to a file. > > > > > 2. Copy the file to another server. > > > > > 3. Wait for 1 hour. > > > > > 4. Migrate from the file to target VM. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Although it is equivalent to a one-hour downtime, we do need to c= ount the > > > > > missing one-hour, correct? > > > >=20 > > > > I don't look at it as counting anything. The clock keeps running ev= en > > > > when I'm not looking at it. If I wake up and look at it again, ther= e is > > > > no 'counting' how long I was asleep... > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > That means: > > >=20 > > > - stop/cont: clock/tsc stop running > > > - savevm/loadvm: clock/tsc stop running > >=20 > > What does "stop running" even mean here? You can never stop the clock > > running. The only thing you can do is change its offset so that it > > jumps back to an earlier value, when you resume a VM? > >=20 >=20 > Yes, I meant "change its offset so that it jumps back to an earlier value= ." From > the VM's perspective, this is equivalent to "the clock was stopped." Yeah... let's stop doing that :) > Could you help explain why we treat stop/cont differently from live migra= tion? We shouldn't. Hardware companies spent *years* learning the lesson about clocks. That they should just keep counting. At the same rate. Unconditionally. Even if the CPU is running slower. Or stopped. Or whatever. Just count. Do not stop counting. 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