[Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[Oliver Gerlich]

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Could this:
http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/06/06/1752234.shtml?tid=118&tid=179&tid=3
help to run Mac OS X at near-native speed on x86? I'd really like to try
 OS X myself, but money-wise Qemu will most likely be the only way for me...
So maybe this switch to x86 could eliminate any byte ordering slowdowns
and make it run as fast as x86-on-x86?

Curious about comments from insiders,
Oliver Gerlich
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Re: [Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[Hetz Ben Hamo]

Not exactly...

As many Apple fans can tell you, apple just love to stick their own
ROM in there machines (I think it's called open firmware these days).
Since your own PC doesn't have this ROM (and I imagine they'll add
couple of tricks more to the package) - you won't be able even to
install OS X on an avrage PC you buy on the market, unless it came
from Apple.

Compiling QEMU under OS-X/Pentium machine, that could be another story
with more more success...

Thanks,
Hetz

On 6/6/05, Oliver Gerlich <olig9@gmx.de> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Could this:
> http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/06/06/1752234.shtml?tid=118&tid=179&tid=3
> help to run Mac OS X at near-native speed on x86? I'd really like to try
>  OS X myself, but money-wise Qemu will most likely be the only way for me...
> So maybe this switch to x86 could eliminate any byte ordering slowdowns
> and make it run as fast as x86-on-x86?
> 
> Curious about comments from insiders,
> Oliver Gerlich
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFCpJ5tTFOM6DcNJ6cRAmPqAJ4vpF8B8KETNVd3hPhC6MEpa13DiQCgmM4t
> uNq6QoDKyFyMiZia3hYdllI=
> =VOCw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Qemu-devel mailing list
> Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel
>

Re: [Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[Natalia Portillo]

Apple will use standard PC architecture: hardware, memory map, ROM  
(the BIOS), etc.
Apple will remain the kernel as Open Source.

Just search XPostFacto.
Was easy to make OS X work in machines not officially supported, and  
so will be.

El 06/06/2005, a las 23:21, Hetz Ben Hamo escribió:

> Not exactly...
>
> As many Apple fans can tell you, apple just love to stick their own
> ROM in there machines (I think it's called open firmware these days).
> Since your own PC doesn't have this ROM (and I imagine they'll add
> couple of tricks more to the package) - you won't be able even to
> install OS X on an avrage PC you buy on the market, unless it came
> from Apple.
>
> Compiling QEMU under OS-X/Pentium machine, that could be another story
> with more more success...
>
> Thanks,
> Hetz
>
> On 6/6/05, Oliver Gerlich <olig9@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Could this:
>> http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/06/06/1752234.shtml? 
>> tid=118&tid=179&tid=3
>> help to run Mac OS X at near-native speed on x86? I'd really like  
>> to try
>>  OS X myself, but money-wise Qemu will most likely be the only way  
>> for me...
>> So maybe this switch to x86 could eliminate any byte ordering  
>> slowdowns
>> and make it run as fast as x86-on-x86?
>>
>> Curious about comments from insiders,
>> Oliver Gerlich
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iD8DBQFCpJ5tTFOM6DcNJ6cRAmPqAJ4vpF8B8KETNVd3hPhC6MEpa13DiQCgmM4t
>> uNq6QoDKyFyMiZia3hYdllI=
>> =VOCw
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qemu-devel mailing list
>> Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Qemu-devel mailing list
> Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel
>

Re: [Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[Hetz Ben Hamo]

Not exactly.

XpostFacto let you install OS X on macs with PPC chips (G3 as
minimum), not on Intel based PC's.

Apple will *not* let users install OS-X/ X86 on your PC. Thats the
official word from Phil Schiller, Vice president of worldwide
marketting at Apple.

So, I'm pretty sure Apple will use some tricks to not-allow users to
install OS-X/X86 on non-apple  X86 based machines by using some tricks
(different BIOS, additional ROM, or some heavy modifications to some
chipset).

Sure, Darwin can run on any X86 machine, but it's not going to be easy
running OS-X/X86 that easily..

Hetz

On 6/9/05, Natalia Portillo <claunia@claunia.com> wrote:
> Apple will use standard PC architecture: hardware, memory map, ROM
> (the BIOS), etc.
> Apple will remain the kernel as Open Source.
> 
> Just search XPostFacto.
> Was easy to make OS X work in machines not officially supported, and
> so will be.
> 
> El 06/06/2005, a las 23:21, Hetz Ben Hamo escribió:
> 
> > Not exactly...
> >
> > As many Apple fans can tell you, apple just love to stick their own
> > ROM in there machines (I think it's called open firmware these days).
> > Since your own PC doesn't have this ROM (and I imagine they'll add
> > couple of tricks more to the package) - you won't be able even to
> > install OS X on an avrage PC you buy on the market, unless it came
> > from Apple.
> >
> > Compiling QEMU under OS-X/Pentium machine, that could be another story
> > with more more success...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Hetz
> >
> > On 6/6/05, Oliver Gerlich <olig9@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> Could this:
> >> http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/06/06/1752234.shtml?
> >> tid=118&tid=179&tid=3
> >> help to run Mac OS X at near-native speed on x86? I'd really like
> >> to try
> >>  OS X myself, but money-wise Qemu will most likely be the only way
> >> for me...
> >> So maybe this switch to x86 could eliminate any byte ordering
> >> slowdowns
> >> and make it run as fast as x86-on-x86?
> >>
> >> Curious about comments from insiders,
> >> Oliver Gerlich
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> >>
> >> iD8DBQFCpJ5tTFOM6DcNJ6cRAmPqAJ4vpF8B8KETNVd3hPhC6MEpa13DiQCgmM4t
> >> uNq6QoDKyFyMiZia3hYdllI=
> >> =VOCw
> >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Qemu-devel mailing list
> >> Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> >> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Qemu-devel mailing list
> > Qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel
> >
> 
>

Re: [Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[André Braga]

Open Firmware is a "fantasy name" for the IEEE-1275 standard. It's not
some idiotic gratuitous Apple fluff.


2005/6/6, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh@gmail.com>:
> Not exactly...
> 
> As many Apple fans can tell you, apple just love to stick their own
> ROM in there machines (I think it's called open firmware these days).
> Since your own PC doesn't have this ROM (and I imagine they'll add
> couple of tricks more to the package) - you won't be able even to
> install OS X on an avrage PC you buy on the market, unless it came
> from Apple.

Re: [Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[André Braga]

2005/6/9, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh@gmail.com>:
> XpostFacto let you install OS X on macs with PPC chips (G3 as
> minimum)

Not exactly. Jaguar can be installed on a 603/604 machine. Panther and
later versions require G3s at minimum.

> On 6/9/05, Natalia Portillo <claunia@claunia.com> wrote:
> > Apple will use standard PC architecture: hardware, memory map, ROM
> > (the BIOS), etc.
> > Apple will remain the kernel as Open Source.

Darwin is one thing, Mac OS X is another. There's more to booting an
operating system than the kernel, and you know it, Natalia.

The same way there are some closed-source, binary-only drivers on
Darwin today, probably some part of the stage 1/2/3 bootloader will be
proprietary and based upon some sort of DRM. It will be cracked
eventually, but it's not gonna be a walk in the park, and it's
definitely not going to be made public by any responsible group (like
OpenDarwin, who hosts XPostFacto).

Re: [Qemu-devel] Mac OS X at native speed...

[Ryan Rempel]

On 6/9/05, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh@gmail.com> wrote:

> XpostFacto let you install OS X on macs with PPC chips (G3 as
> minimum), not on Intel based PC's.
> 
> Apple will *not* let users install OS-X/ X86 on your PC. Thats the
> official word from Phil Schiller, Vice president of worldwide
> marketting at Apple.
> 
> So, I'm pretty sure Apple will use some tricks to not-allow users to
> install OS-X/X86 on non-apple  X86 based machines by using some tricks
> (different BIOS, additional ROM, or some heavy modifications to some
> chipset).

It will be interesting to see what Apple does to prevent Mac OS X /
Intel from running on generic hardware. At the moment, there isn't
anything special in Mac OS X / PPC that prevents it from running on
generic PPC hardware -- of course, there are a variety of technical
issues to deal with, but there isn't anything either at the Darwin
layer or the GUI layer that actively prevents people from getting it
to work on generic PPC hardware. (Well, the Mac OS X Installer in 10.3
and 10.4 does decline to install on certain known systems that were
supported by previous versions of Mac OS X, but it will install on
unknown systems).

However, the Mac OS X license does restrict the user to installing on
Apple hardware. I haven't given much thought to how enforceable that
restriction would be. The license for the "developer preview" of Mac
OS X / Intel is currently even more restrictive -- it prevents the
developer from installing Mac OS X / Intel on any other machine than
the one which Apple supplies (on which Mac OS X / Intel is
pre-installed).

The interesting thing about the technical tricks that Apple might use
to "lock out" non-Apple hardware is that most of those tricks will
have to trust the kernel, and the Mac OS X kernel is heavily
modifiable in one way or another (kernel extensions, patching,
recompiling, etc.). Perhaps there could be some kind of
motherboard-based DRM, but even that would need to be accessed through
the kernel, one presumes.

Perhaps some moderate technical difficulties combined with licensing
prohibitions would be sufficient for Apple's purposes -- it will be
interesting to see what they come up with.