[Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Avi Kivity]

block.c says:

>     /*
>      * Yes, BDRV_O_NOCACHE aka O_DIRECT means we have to present a
>      * write cache to the guest.  We do need the fdatasync to flush
>      * out transactions for block allocations, and we maybe have a
>      * volatile write cache in our backing device to deal with.
>      */
>     if (flags & (BDRV_O_CACHE_WB|BDRV_O_NOCACHE))
>         bs->enable_write_cache = 1;

This means that if I start a guest with cache=writethrough and then 
restart (or live migrate) it with cache=none, then the guest will see a 
change, even though the user only changed the drive's backing, not 
something guest visible.  In the case of live migration, the guest will 
not even notice the change and we may be at risk of data loss.

For 0.13 I propose setting enable_write_cache to true unconditionally.  
For 0.12 the question is more difficult, since we'll be changing the 
guest ABI.  Given that guests are unlikely not to be able to cope with 
write caches, and that the alternative is data loss, I believe that's 
also the right solution there.

-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

Re: [Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 04:42:18PM +0200, Avi Kivity wrote:
> This means that if I start a guest with cache=writethrough and then 
> restart (or live migrate) it with cache=none, then the guest will see a 
> change, even though the user only changed the drive's backing, not 
> something guest visible.  In the case of live migration, the guest will 
> not even notice the change and we may be at risk of data loss.
> 
> For 0.13 I propose setting enable_write_cache to true unconditionally.  
> For 0.12 the question is more difficult, since we'll be changing the 
> guest ABI.  Given that guests are unlikely not to be able to cope with 
> write caches, and that the alternative is data loss, I believe that's 
> also the right solution there.

Setting it to true unconditionally will cause performance degradation
for cache=writethrough devices, as we now have to drain the queue in
the guest for no reason at all.

I think the better option would be to move the cache setting to qdev
property on the block device at it's a device visible setting.

Re: [Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Avi Kivity]

On 03/08/2010 11:39 AM, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 04:42:18PM +0200, Avi Kivity wrote:
>    
>> This means that if I start a guest with cache=writethrough and then
>> restart (or live migrate) it with cache=none, then the guest will see a
>> change, even though the user only changed the drive's backing, not
>> something guest visible.  In the case of live migration, the guest will
>> not even notice the change and we may be at risk of data loss.
>>
>> For 0.13 I propose setting enable_write_cache to true unconditionally.
>> For 0.12 the question is more difficult, since we'll be changing the
>> guest ABI.  Given that guests are unlikely not to be able to cope with
>> write caches, and that the alternative is data loss, I believe that's
>> also the right solution there.
>>      
> Setting it to true unconditionally will cause performance degradation
> for cache=writethrough devices, as we now have to drain the queue in
> the guest for no reason at all.
>    

True.

> I think the better option would be to move the cache setting to qdev
> property on the block device at it's a device visible setting.
>    

Reasonable.  Should default to write cache enabled since that's 
compatible across all host caching policies; if the user knows they will 
keep the host caching policy consistent, they can disable it and reap 
the gain.

Or keep the default as it is now, and make it the user's responsibility 
to keep track.  In this case we need to add a paragraph to the qemu 
management guide.

-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

Re: [Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Jamie Lokier]

Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 04:42:18PM +0200, Avi Kivity wrote:
> > This means that if I start a guest with cache=writethrough and then 
> > restart (or live migrate) it with cache=none, then the guest will see a 
> > change, even though the user only changed the drive's backing, not 
> > something guest visible.  In the case of live migration, the guest will 
> > not even notice the change and we may be at risk of data loss.
> > 
> > For 0.13 I propose setting enable_write_cache to true unconditionally.  
> > For 0.12 the question is more difficult, since we'll be changing the 
> > guest ABI.  Given that guests are unlikely not to be able to cope with 
> > write caches, and that the alternative is data loss, I believe that's 
> > also the right solution there.
> 
> Setting it to true unconditionally will cause performance degradation
> for cache=writethrough devices, as we now have to drain the queue in
> the guest for no reason at all.
> 
> I think the better option would be to move the cache setting to qdev
> property on the block device at it's a device visible setting.

Assuming the outcome is that it becomes a qdev property, and stays
preserved across migrations, even if the backing device access
changes, then I think the right thing is to dynamically decide to set
O_DSYNC and/or call fdatasync before completing writes from qemu when
the guest thinks enable_write_cache=0 (or sets it to 0).  With
cache=none, that would set O_DSYNC|O_DIRECT if the two flags do work
properly together on our favourite hosts.

Thus enable_write_cache won't always have the default value for the
different backing device access type, but it will match the guest's
expectations and be actually safe.  Moreover more, by responding to
the guest changing that, it's closer to behaving like real harware.

-- Jamie

Re: [Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 09:47:32AM +0000, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> Assuming the outcome is that it becomes a qdev property, and stays
> preserved across migrations, even if the backing device access
> changes, then I think the right thing is to dynamically decide to set
> O_DSYNC and/or call fdatasync before completing writes from qemu when
> the guest thinks enable_write_cache=0 (or sets it to 0).  With
> cache=none, that would set O_DSYNC|O_DIRECT if the two flags do work
> properly together on our favourite hosts.
> 
> Thus enable_write_cache won't always have the default value for the
> different backing device access type, but it will match the guest's
> expectations and be actually safe.  Moreover more, by responding to
> the guest changing that, it's closer to behaving like real harware.

I'd have to look at other uses of qdev, but I would assume that we
always look at the qdev properties and only use the existing drive
suboptions as compatiblity if we do not have the qdev properties set.

Re: [Qemu-devel] bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Jamie Lokier]

Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 09:47:32AM +0000, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> > Assuming the outcome is that it becomes a qdev property, and stays
> > preserved across migrations, even if the backing device access
> > changes, then I think the right thing is to dynamically decide to set
> > O_DSYNC and/or call fdatasync before completing writes from qemu when
> > the guest thinks enable_write_cache=0 (or sets it to 0).  With
> > cache=none, that would set O_DSYNC|O_DIRECT if the two flags do work
> > properly together on our favourite hosts.
> > 
> > Thus enable_write_cache won't always have the default value for the
> > different backing device access type, but it will match the guest's
> > expectations and be actually safe.  Moreover more, by responding to
> > the guest changing that, it's closer to behaving like real harware.
> 
> I'd have to look at other uses of qdev, but I would assume that we
> always look at the qdev properties and only use the existing drive
> suboptions as compatiblity if we do not have the qdev properties set.

I'm not sure if I was clear or not: I mean if the guest runs "hdparm
-W $value" or Windows equivalent, and cache!=writethrough, it should
have the effect of turning on/off the host's O_DSYNC flag (or qemu
calling fdatasync() before signalling every write completion), because
that's really just another way for the guest say it wants to flush
write caches after every write.  So that's what the emulation should
do, either explicitly (fdatasync) or a subtler way (O_DSYNC).

That guest-visible flag, which is part of the emulated drive state,
should be preserved across migration.

-- Jamie

[Qemu-devel] Re: bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Juan Quintela]

Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com> wrote:
> block.c says:
>
>>     /*
>>      * Yes, BDRV_O_NOCACHE aka O_DIRECT means we have to present a
>>      * write cache to the guest.  We do need the fdatasync to flush
>>      * out transactions for block allocations, and we maybe have a
>>      * volatile write cache in our backing device to deal with.
>>      */
>>     if (flags & (BDRV_O_CACHE_WB|BDRV_O_NOCACHE))
>>         bs->enable_write_cache = 1;
>
> This means that if I start a guest with cache=writethrough and then
> restart (or live migrate) it with cache=none, then the guest will see
> a change, even though the user only changed the drive's backing, not
> something guest visible.  In the case of live migration, the guest
> will not even notice the change and we may be at risk of data loss.
>
> For 0.13 I propose setting enable_write_cache to true unconditionally.
> For 0.12 the question is more difficult, since we'll be changing the
> guest ABI.  Given that guests are unlikely not to be able to cope with
> write caches, and that the alternative is data loss, I believe that's
> also the right solution there.

For RHEL I setted with adding enable_write_cache to the migration
state.  As you state, that value is guest visible.  I can update that
patches to qemu.  When I migrated from an old version, I just set that
value to 0.

What do you think?

Later, Juan.

[Qemu-devel] Re: bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Avi Kivity]

On 03/08/2010 12:29 PM, Juan Quintela wrote:
> Avi Kivity<avi@redhat.com>  wrote:
>    
>> block.c says:
>>
>>      
>>>      /*
>>>       * Yes, BDRV_O_NOCACHE aka O_DIRECT means we have to present a
>>>       * write cache to the guest.  We do need the fdatasync to flush
>>>       * out transactions for block allocations, and we maybe have a
>>>       * volatile write cache in our backing device to deal with.
>>>       */
>>>      if (flags&  (BDRV_O_CACHE_WB|BDRV_O_NOCACHE))
>>>          bs->enable_write_cache = 1;
>>>        
>> This means that if I start a guest with cache=writethrough and then
>> restart (or live migrate) it with cache=none, then the guest will see
>> a change, even though the user only changed the drive's backing, not
>> something guest visible.  In the case of live migration, the guest
>> will not even notice the change and we may be at risk of data loss.
>>
>> For 0.13 I propose setting enable_write_cache to true unconditionally.
>> For 0.12 the question is more difficult, since we'll be changing the
>> guest ABI.  Given that guests are unlikely not to be able to cope with
>> write caches, and that the alternative is data loss, I believe that's
>> also the right solution there.
>>      
> For RHEL I setted with adding enable_write_cache to the migration
> state.  As you state, that value is guest visible.  I can update that
> patches to qemu.  When I migrated from an old version, I just set that
> value to 0.
>
> What do you think?
>    

I think we have to go with a qdev property as Christoph suggests.  Then 
it becomes the management's responsibility to set it right.

-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

[Qemu-devel] Re: bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Juan Quintela]

Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com> wrote:
> On 03/08/2010 12:29 PM, Juan Quintela wrote:
>> Avi Kivity<avi@redhat.com>  wrote:
>> For RHEL I setted with adding enable_write_cache to the migration
>> state.  As you state, that value is guest visible.  I can update that
>> patches to qemu.  When I migrated from an old version, I just set that
>> value to 0.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>    
>
> I think we have to go with a qdev property as Christoph suggests.
> Then it becomes the management's responsibility to set it right.

Also works for me.

Later, Juan.

Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Jamie Lokier]

Avi Kivity wrote:
> I think we have to go with a qdev property as Christoph suggests.  Then 
> it becomes the management's responsibility to set it right.

How can the management be expected to know or follow dynamically
changing guest state?  There guests which disable a drive's write
cache in some application scripts, and others which enable it in boot
scripts.  That's not something management should be knowing about.

-- Jamie

Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Avi Kivity]

On 03/09/2010 01:00 AM, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> Avi Kivity wrote:
>    
>> I think we have to go with a qdev property as Christoph suggests.  Then
>> it becomes the management's responsibility to set it right.
>>      
> How can the management be expected to know or follow dynamically
> changing guest state?  There guests which disable a drive's write
> cache in some application scripts, and others which enable it in boot
> scripts.  That's not something management should be knowing about.
>    

The flag indicates whether the drive has a write cache or not.

-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: bs->enable_write_cache and the guest ABI

[Jamie Lokier]

Avi Kivity wrote:
> On 03/09/2010 01:00 AM, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> >Avi Kivity wrote:
> >   
> >>I think we have to go with a qdev property as Christoph suggests.  Then
> >>it becomes the management's responsibility to set it right.
> >>     
> >How can the management be expected to know or follow dynamically
> >changing guest state?  There guests which disable a drive's write
> >cache in some application scripts, and others which enable it in boot
> >scripts.  That's not something management should be knowing about.
> >   
> 
> The flag indicates whether the drive has a write cache or not.

Ok, thanks, I was confused by the name saying "enable" not "has".

I presume the dynamic actually-enabled-write-cache guest device state
is dealt with properly, then?

-- Jamie