[Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Thomas Huth]

'-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
out a warning for a couple of releases first.

Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
---
 vl.c | 4 +++-
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
--- a/vl.c
+++ b/vl.c
@@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
                     exit(1);
                 }
                 break;
-             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
+            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
+                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
+                             "'-accel tcg' instead");
                 olist = qemu_find_opts("machine");
                 qemu_opts_parse_noisily(olist, "accel=tcg", false);
                 break;
-- 
1.8.3.1

Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Stefan Hajnoczi]

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On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
> '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
> qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
> the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
> in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
> knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
> without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
> out a warning for a couple of releases first.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
> ---
>  vl.c | 4 +++-
>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
> 
> diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
> index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
> --- a/vl.c
> +++ b/vl.c
> @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
>                      exit(1);
>                  }
>                  break;
> -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
> +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
> +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "

s/depreacted/deprecated/

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Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:48:37PM +0100, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
> > '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
> > qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
> > the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
> > in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
> > knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
> > without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
> > out a warning for a couple of releases first.
> > 
> > Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
> > ---
> >  vl.c | 4 +++-
> >  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
> > 
> > diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
> > index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
> > --- a/vl.c
> > +++ b/vl.c
> > @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
> >                      exit(1);
> >                  }
> >                  break;
> > -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
> > +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
> > +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
> 
> s/depreacted/deprecated/

Should we have an dedicated  'error_deprecated(oldfeat, newfeat)' method
that prints a standardized message, as well as a -no-deprecated flag that
turns off all the deprecation warnings. There's nothing more annoying than
an application that insists on spewing warnings to stdout that you know
about, but aren't in a position to address any time soon.

Regards,
Daniel
-- 
|: https://berrange.com      -o-    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org         -o-            https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org    -o-    https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|

Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Markus Armbruster]

"Daniel P. Berrange" <berrange@redhat.com> writes:

> On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:48:37PM +0100, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
>> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
>> > '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
>> > qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
>> > the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
>> > in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
>> > knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
>> > without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
>> > out a warning for a couple of releases first.
>> > 
>> > Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
>> > ---
>> >  vl.c | 4 +++-
>> >  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
>> > 
>> > diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
>> > index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
>> > --- a/vl.c
>> > +++ b/vl.c
>> > @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
>> >                      exit(1);
>> >                  }
>> >                  break;
>> > -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>> > +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>> > +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
>> 
>> s/depreacted/deprecated/
>
> Should we have an dedicated  'error_deprecated(oldfeat, newfeat)' method
> that prints a standardized message, as well as a -no-deprecated flag that

I hate flags starting with "no".  What about something like
--suppress-deprecation-warnings?

> turns off all the deprecation warnings. There's nothing more annoying than
> an application that insists on spewing warnings to stdout that you know
> about, but aren't in a position to address any time soon.

If we do that, we should consider having the warnings tell users how to
suppress them, say "You can suppress this warning with
--suppress-deprecation-warnings".

Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Thomas Huth]

On 08.05.2017 10:42, Markus Armbruster wrote:
> "Daniel P. Berrange" <berrange@redhat.com> writes:
> 
>> On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:48:37PM +0100, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
>>>> '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
>>>> qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
>>>> the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
>>>> in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
>>>> knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
>>>> without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
>>>> out a warning for a couple of releases first.
>>>>
>>>> Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
>>>> ---
>>>>  vl.c | 4 +++-
>>>>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>>>
>>>> diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
>>>> index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
>>>> --- a/vl.c
>>>> +++ b/vl.c
>>>> @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
>>>>                      exit(1);
>>>>                  }
>>>>                  break;
>>>> -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>>>> +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>>>> +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
>>>
>>> s/depreacted/deprecated/
>>
>> Should we have an dedicated  'error_deprecated(oldfeat, newfeat)' method
>> that prints a standardized message, as well as a -no-deprecated flag that
> 
> I hate flags starting with "no".  What about something like
> --suppress-deprecation-warnings?
> 
>> turns off all the deprecation warnings. There's nothing more annoying than
>> an application that insists on spewing warnings to stdout that you know
>> about, but aren't in a position to address any time soon.
> 
> If we do that, we should consider having the warnings tell users how to
> suppress them, say "You can suppress this warning with
> --suppress-deprecation-warnings".

IMHO we should not add such a flag. Otherwise people will simply always
turn it on and not only ignore this warning, but also all other
warnings. I think these warnings *have* to be annoying to make sure that
people change their scripts.
(And if they "aren't in a position to address any time soon", they
likely also aren't in a position to add a
"--suppress-deprecation-warnings" parameter to their scripts either).

 Thomas

Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 11:14:00AM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
> On 08.05.2017 10:42, Markus Armbruster wrote:
> > "Daniel P. Berrange" <berrange@redhat.com> writes:
> > 
> >> On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:48:37PM +0100, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
> >>> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
> >>>> '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
> >>>> qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
> >>>> the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
> >>>> in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
> >>>> knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
> >>>> without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
> >>>> out a warning for a couple of releases first.
> >>>>
> >>>> Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
> >>>> ---
> >>>>  vl.c | 4 +++-
> >>>>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
> >>>>
> >>>> diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
> >>>> index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
> >>>> --- a/vl.c
> >>>> +++ b/vl.c
> >>>> @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
> >>>>                      exit(1);
> >>>>                  }
> >>>>                  break;
> >>>> -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
> >>>> +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
> >>>> +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
> >>>
> >>> s/depreacted/deprecated/
> >>
> >> Should we have an dedicated  'error_deprecated(oldfeat, newfeat)' method
> >> that prints a standardized message, as well as a -no-deprecated flag that
> > 
> > I hate flags starting with "no".  What about something like
> > --suppress-deprecation-warnings?
> > 
> >> turns off all the deprecation warnings. There's nothing more annoying than
> >> an application that insists on spewing warnings to stdout that you know
> >> about, but aren't in a position to address any time soon.
> > 
> > If we do that, we should consider having the warnings tell users how to
> > suppress them, say "You can suppress this warning with
> > --suppress-deprecation-warnings".
> 
> IMHO we should not add such a flag. Otherwise people will simply always
> turn it on and not only ignore this warning, but also all other
> warnings. I think these warnings *have* to be annoying to make sure that
> people change their scripts.
> (And if they "aren't in a position to address any time soon", they
> likely also aren't in a position to add a
> "--suppress-deprecation-warnings" parameter to their scripts either).

That isn't really true. Adding a --suppress-deprecation-warnings flag does
not change semantics of either QEMU, or the mgmt app and so would not have
any coding or testing burden.  Rewriting the mgmt app code to generate the
QEMU command line in a different way has significant overhead in both code
and testing work, as well as potential to introduce semantic bugs.

Regards,
Daniel
-- 
|: https://berrange.com      -o-    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org         -o-            https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org    -o-    https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|

Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Thomas Huth]

On 08.05.2017 11:40, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 11:14:00AM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
>> On 08.05.2017 10:42, Markus Armbruster wrote:
>>> "Daniel P. Berrange" <berrange@redhat.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:48:37PM +0100, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
>>>>>> '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
>>>>>> qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
>>>>>> the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
>>>>>> in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
>>>>>> knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
>>>>>> without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
>>>>>> out a warning for a couple of releases first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>  vl.c | 4 +++-
>>>>>>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
>>>>>> index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
>>>>>> --- a/vl.c
>>>>>> +++ b/vl.c
>>>>>> @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
>>>>>>                      exit(1);
>>>>>>                  }
>>>>>>                  break;
>>>>>> -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>>>>>> +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>>>>>> +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
>>>>>
>>>>> s/depreacted/deprecated/
>>>>
>>>> Should we have an dedicated  'error_deprecated(oldfeat, newfeat)' method
>>>> that prints a standardized message, as well as a -no-deprecated flag that
>>>
>>> I hate flags starting with "no".  What about something like
>>> --suppress-deprecation-warnings?
>>>
>>>> turns off all the deprecation warnings. There's nothing more annoying than
>>>> an application that insists on spewing warnings to stdout that you know
>>>> about, but aren't in a position to address any time soon.
>>>
>>> If we do that, we should consider having the warnings tell users how to
>>> suppress them, say "You can suppress this warning with
>>> --suppress-deprecation-warnings".
>>
>> IMHO we should not add such a flag. Otherwise people will simply always
>> turn it on and not only ignore this warning, but also all other
>> warnings. I think these warnings *have* to be annoying to make sure that
>> people change their scripts.
>> (And if they "aren't in a position to address any time soon", they
>> likely also aren't in a position to add a
>> "--suppress-deprecation-warnings" parameter to their scripts either).
> 
> That isn't really true. Adding a --suppress-deprecation-warnings flag does
> not change semantics of either QEMU, or the mgmt app and so would not have
> any coding or testing burden.  Rewriting the mgmt app code to generate the
> QEMU command line in a different way has significant overhead in both code
> and testing work, as well as potential to introduce semantic bugs.

OK, I think we were talking at crossed purposes here. I was thinking
about people who invoke QEMU directly or via a shell script, and you
apparently had libvirt and other management apps in mind (I should've
know that, sorry).

So yes, with libvirt or other compiled management apps in mind, it would
make sense to have an error_deprecated() function, I guess.
But ideally, we should only deprecate those interfaces in QEMU where
we're sure that libvirt already does not use them anymore anyway.
For example, in this specific case here, it should not matter. libvirt
indeed has some code to use the -no-kvm switch, but as far as I can see,
it probes the help output of QEMU for the switch before using it. Since
QEMU does not list this switch in its help text (I guess only qemu-kvm
did so), it should simply ignore it.

Anyway, since Paolo does not like to remove these trivial legacy
switches anyway, I'll stop here, so -no-kvm can stay where it is.

 Thomas

Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH] Mark legacy option '-no-kvm' as deprecated

[Markus Armbruster]

Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com> writes:

> On 08.05.2017 11:40, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
>> On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 11:14:00AM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
>>> On 08.05.2017 10:42, Markus Armbruster wrote:
>>>> "Daniel P. Berrange" <berrange@redhat.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:48:37PM +0100, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:54:22PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
>>>>>>> '-no-kvm' was just a legacy convenience option for the users of
>>>>>>> qemu-kvm, it never made sense in the normal QEMU tree since TCG is
>>>>>>> the default here anyway. The option has also never been specified
>>>>>>> in the QEMU docs and in the '--help' list, so likely hardly anybody
>>>>>>> knows about this option at all. I think we could get rid of this
>>>>>>> without bothering anybody nowadays, but just in case, let's print
>>>>>>> out a warning for a couple of releases first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Signed-off-by: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>  vl.c | 4 +++-
>>>>>>>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> diff --git a/vl.c b/vl.c
>>>>>>> index d5ec87e..2d44621 100644
>>>>>>> --- a/vl.c
>>>>>>> +++ b/vl.c
>>>>>>> @@ -3709,7 +3709,9 @@ int main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp)
>>>>>>>                      exit(1);
>>>>>>>                  }
>>>>>>>                  break;
>>>>>>> -             case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>>>>>>> +            case QEMU_OPTION_no_kvm:
>>>>>>> +                error_report("'-no-kvm' is depreacted, please use "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> s/depreacted/deprecated/
>>>>>
>>>>> Should we have an dedicated  'error_deprecated(oldfeat, newfeat)' method
>>>>> that prints a standardized message, as well as a -no-deprecated flag that
>>>>
>>>> I hate flags starting with "no".  What about something like
>>>> --suppress-deprecation-warnings?
>>>>
>>>>> turns off all the deprecation warnings. There's nothing more annoying than
>>>>> an application that insists on spewing warnings to stdout that you know
>>>>> about, but aren't in a position to address any time soon.
>>>>
>>>> If we do that, we should consider having the warnings tell users how to
>>>> suppress them, say "You can suppress this warning with
>>>> --suppress-deprecation-warnings".
>>>
>>> IMHO we should not add such a flag. Otherwise people will simply always
>>> turn it on and not only ignore this warning, but also all other
>>> warnings. I think these warnings *have* to be annoying to make sure that
>>> people change their scripts.
>>> (And if they "aren't in a position to address any time soon", they
>>> likely also aren't in a position to add a
>>> "--suppress-deprecation-warnings" parameter to their scripts either).
>> 
>> That isn't really true. Adding a --suppress-deprecation-warnings flag does
>> not change semantics of either QEMU, or the mgmt app and so would not have
>> any coding or testing burden.  Rewriting the mgmt app code to generate the
>> QEMU command line in a different way has significant overhead in both code
>> and testing work, as well as potential to introduce semantic bugs.
>
> OK, I think we were talking at crossed purposes here. I was thinking
> about people who invoke QEMU directly or via a shell script, and you
> apparently had libvirt and other management apps in mind (I should've
> know that, sorry).
>
> So yes, with libvirt or other compiled management apps in mind, it would
> make sense to have an error_deprecated() function, I guess.

I'm not sure --suppress-deprecation-warnings makes sense even then.  I
believe deprecation warnings are *more* important for management
applications than for human users.  When a deprecated interface finally
goes away, non-human users break, but human users can adapt on the fly.
They may also be annoyed, but that can't be helped.  I wouldn't advise
management applications to sweep their pending breakage under the rug
wholesale with --suppress-deprecation-warnings.

> But ideally, we should only deprecate those interfaces in QEMU where
> we're sure that libvirt already does not use them anymore anyway.

Makes sense.

> For example, in this specific case here, it should not matter. libvirt
> indeed has some code to use the -no-kvm switch, but as far as I can see,
> it probes the help output of QEMU for the switch before using it. Since
> QEMU does not list this switch in its help text (I guess only qemu-kvm
> did so), it should simply ignore it.
>
> Anyway, since Paolo does not like to remove these trivial legacy
> switches anyway, I'll stop here, so -no-kvm can stay where it is.

I think there are two levels of deprecation:

(1) Something we don't want people to use, but we're not planning to
actually remove.  Make sure the manual doesn't use it, then drop it from
help.  Plenty of precedence for that.

(2) Something we would like to remove some day.  All of (1), plus make
sure libvirt doesn't use it, then add suitable warnings.

We don't have a way to warn via QMP, yet.

Patches for (1) tend to be easier to get in than patches for (2).