From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80380CAC5AC for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 16:26:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v15qJ-0002qo-6H; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 12:26:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v15qH-0002qY-IF for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 12:26:13 -0400 Received: from casper.infradead.org ([2001:8b0:10b:1236::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v15qE-0006TX-Gq for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 12:26:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=ka54nbJpDwYjOQ0jJfPgS33lWYxjLlXIUWBme7I462Y=; b=ldo2LfuMtApePfNeNVmzUA3BWm PAvesgY8l3PN20G8v3x0qWFmvYm19r3+i+zgyCN1hgimAyMfaxBrbEkHG7/U+2SIo/i8WPTbJvuOL /ZqWIdlI11cXT+BS8ysXYfNPaFLmZRjSYs4+F2Uo1tjuYh4UlL09jVn1dbF99sH2xjZhNQiAUN9gE aBBjhEPN3Avt0o80EI6HwT3DLj3D7jkJEs7gu+q8pUASgIQHE99FUnO9xOvT3F4UgZZmHmYSnebg7 BRJ8/6TKjk+ThSdQd/pzJnJBMhCyN9mbUKrR4m1EugCfUX7hz6aEy/ecHftoRDm6qVjREslqxTSau UiQvT7uw==; Received: from [54.239.6.190] (helo=u09cd745991455d.ant.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.98.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1v15q7-0000000FBSh-4AKB; Tue, 23 Sep 2025 16:26:04 +0000 Message-ID: <71b79d3819b5f5435b7bc7d8c451be0d276e02db.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: Should QEMU (accel=kvm) kvm-clock/guest_tsc stop counting during downtime blackout? From: David Woodhouse To: Dongli Zhang , qemu-devel@nongnu.org Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 17:26:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7d91b34c-36fe-44ee-8a2a-fb00eaebddd8@oracle.com> References: <2d375ec3-a071-4ae3-b03a-05a823c48016@oracle.com> <3d30b662b8cdb2d25d9b4c5bae98af1c45fac306.camel@infradead.org> <1e9f9c64-af03-466b-8212-ce5c828aac6e@oracle.com> <7d91b34c-36fe-44ee-8a2a-fb00eaebddd8@oracle.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-ozD17fbZM+ttx4ETdd46" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html Received-SPF: none client-ip=2001:8b0:10b:1236::1; envelope-from=BATV+c9925e9796c0bf3b58bb+8066+infradead.org+dwmw2@casper.srs.infradead.org; helo=casper.infradead.org X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org --=-ozD17fbZM+ttx4ETdd46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2025-09-22 at 12:37 -0700, Dongli Zhang wrote: > On 9/22/25 11:16 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > Assuming a modern host where the TSC just counts sanely at a consistent > > rate and never deviates.... > >=20 > > No. The PVTI should basically *never* change. Whatever the estimated > > (not NTP skewed) frequency of the TSC is believed to be, the KVM clock > > PVTI should indicate that at boot, telling the guest how to convert a > > TSC value into 'monotonic nanoseconds since boot'. If it ever changes, > > that's a KVM bug. > >=20 > > It should be saved and restored in precisely its native form, using the > > KVM_[GS]ET_CLOCK_GUEST I referenced before. For both live update (same > > host) and live migration (different host). > >=20 > > The TSC should also continue to count at exactly the same rate as the > > host's TSC at all times. No breaks or discontinuities due to any kind > > of 'steal time'. For live update that's easy as you just apply the same > > *offset*. For live migration that's where you have to accept that it > > depends on clock synchronization between your source and destination > > hosts, which is probably based on realtime. >=20 > That means: >=20 > - Utilize KVM_[GS]ET_CLOCK_GUEST to avoid forward/backward drift due to t= he > change in PVTI data structure (by adjusting 'ka->kvmclock_offset'). Ultimately for modern hardware I think I'd like to kill ka->kvmclock_offset entirely but yeah, that's how it works right now I think. > - Utilize realtime as reference to keep clock/tsc running. Hm, I don't like talking about 'running' vs. 'stopped'. The clock should always be running. You try to keep it as *stable* as possible, even across live migration. And for live migration, realtime is probably the best you have so it's what you're stuck with. When the guest reads their TSC, they should always get a value which is as *close* as possible to their *original* host's TSC, minus the delta of what that host's TSC was when they were first started (ignoring scaling). > >=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > > > As demonstrated in my test, currently guest_tsc doesn't stop counting= during > > > blackout because of the lack of "MSR_IA32_TSC put" at > > > kvmclock_vm_state_change(). Per my understanding, it is a bug and we = may need to > > > fix it. > > >=20 > > > BTW, kvmclock_vm_state_change() already utilizes KVM_SET_CLOCK to re-= configure > > > kvm-clock before continuing the guest VM. Yeah, right now it's probably just introducing errors for a stop/start of the VM. > > > >=20 > > > > KVM already lets you restore the TSC correctly. To restore KVM cloc= k > > > > correctly, you want something like KVM_SET_CLOCK_GUEST from > > > > https://lore.kernel.org/all/20240522001817.619072-4-dwmw2@infradead= .org/ > > > >=20 > > > > For cross machine migration, you *do* need to use a realtime clock > > > > reference as that's the best you have (make sure you use TAI not UT= C > > > > and don't get affected by leap seconds or smearing). Use that to > > > > restore the *TSC* as well as you can to make it appear to have kept > > > > running consistently. And then KVM_SET_CLOCK_GUEST just as you woul= d on > > > > the same host. > > >=20 > > > Indeed QEMU Live Migration also relies on kvmclock_vm_state_change() = to > > > temporarily stop/cont the source/target VM. > > >=20 > > > Would you mean we expect something different for live migration, i.e.= , > > >=20 > > > 1. Live Migrate a source VM to a file. > > > 2. Copy the file to another server. > > > 3. Wait for 1 hour. > > > 4. Migrate from the file to target VM. > > >=20 > > > Although it is equivalent to a one-hour downtime, we do need to count= the > > > missing one-hour, correct? > >=20 > > I don't look at it as counting anything. The clock keeps running even > > when I'm not looking at it. If I wake up and look at it again, there is > > no 'counting' how long I was asleep... > >=20 >=20 > That means: >=20 > - stop/cont: clock/tsc stop running > - savevm/loadvm: clock/tsc stop running What does "stop running" even mean here? You can never stop the clock running. The only thing you can do is change its offset so that it jumps back to an earlier value, when you resume a VM? --=-ozD17fbZM+ttx4ETdd46 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD9Aw ggSOMIIDdqADAgECAhAOmiw0ECVD4cWj5DqVrT9PMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0yNDAxMzAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MDkyMzU5NTlaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkFVMRAwDgYDVQQKEwdWZXJva2V5MSAwHgYDVQQDExdWZXJv a2V5IFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBHMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMjvgLKj jfhCFqxYyRiW8g3cNFAvltDbK5AzcOaR7yVzVGadr4YcCVxjKrEJOgi7WEOH8rUgCNB5cTD8N/Et GfZI+LGqSv0YtNa54T9D1AWJy08ZKkWvfGGIXN9UFAPMJ6OLLH/UUEgFa+7KlrEvMUupDFGnnR06 aDJAwtycb8yXtILj+TvfhLFhafxroXrflspavejQkEiHjNjtHnwbZ+o43g0/yxjwnarGI3kgcak7 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