On Thu, Oct 3, 2024 at 2:53 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:


On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 8:24 AM Alex Bennée <alex.bennee@linaro.org> wrote:
One output from this discussion should be a clear statement that we are
going forward with this work and the road map. A rough roadmap might
look like:

  - 9.2   --enable-rust is available and developers can build with it.
          rust devices have -x-device or -rust-device CLI flags for
          runtime selection.

  - 10.x  rust devices feature complete and migration compatible, enabled
          by default when rust compiler detected. No CLI selection
          required as legacy portions won't be built. Any partial
          conversions should be behind --enable-prototype-rust configure
          flag.

  - 11.x  distros have enough infrastructure to build on supported
          platforms. Rust becomes a mandatory dependency, old C versions
          of converted code removed from build.

  - xx.y  QEMU becomes a pure native rust program and all C is expunged.
          We may never get to this point.

We should publish the intention and the road map prominently although it
was unclear if a blog post would be the best place vs expanding a
section in the developers manual. Perhaps both make sense with a blog
post for the statement of intent and rough timeline and the developer
manual being expanded with any new rules and standards to follow?

FreeBSD is Tier 1 in rust only for amd64 (x86_64). It's Tier 2 for i386 (which
admittedly is going away) and Tier 3 for everything else.

oops, I should have said it's Tier 2 with hosts for amd64, Tier 2 w/o hosts and
tier 3 for aarch64 (and everything else). In FreeBSD, amd64 and aarch64 are
tier 1 supported platforms and I got those confused. It is an important difference
and later in my email I refer to it, so I thought a correction was in order.
 
There was some concern about the missing gaps in the support matrix
especially as we support a number of "legacy" TCG backends. While *-user
support is more insulated from the effects of rust conversions due to
its relatively low set of dependencies it will still be a problem if we
convert the core CPU QOM classes to rust.

Indeed. I have great concerns here, though we've already dropped
32-bit host support for bsd-user. The status of aarch64 support and rumored
difficulty getting that rust support upgraded give me pause for concern
because it's a FreeBSD Tier 1 platform. While it basically works, the lack of
commitment by the Rust community is troubling. Even more troubling because
rust still uses the old FreeBSD 11 compat syscalls, despite upgraded
being available for years at this point (though maybe this info has changed
in the last month or two, the years long delay in moving off the interfaces
that the FreeBSD project obsoleted about 8 years ago is troubling on its own).
Much of the resistance I'm told (I'm not a big rust person, so I have to reply
on others) has been in the rust team because they don't have enough familiarity
with FreeBSD to make any kind of decision so even properly solved issues
linger in the official upstream. The FreeBSD project critically depends on
bsd-user for its release process, though that dependency so far has been
only on x86 and aarch64, both of which work almost all the time, even if
they aren't Tier 1 rust platforms.

For -system use, this could limit where qemu runs, though to be honest
the only platform I know has users that might be affected running -system
might be RISCV. 

There's similar issues with other BSDs, but I've heard even less reliable information
about them, so I'll just leave it at that.

So a strawman timeline of 2 years strikes me as unrealistically agressive
for it to be an absolute requirement given the slow rate of change I've seen
with upstream rust WRT FreeBSD. At the very least, it would put qemu on
non-x86/non-aarch64 platforms at risk. While not a huge audience, there are
some users there. The Tier 2 status for Rust at best for FreeBSD is also a
bit worrying for elimination of all C or a big reliance on rust in the core that
can't realistically be avoided. I'm not sure this should gate the start of the rust
experiment, but I raise it now so as that experiment progresses towards production
people think to talk to me or others in the FreeBSD community as they progress.

Warner