QEMU PPC VLE support

QEMU PPC VLE support

[Stefan Hajnoczi]

Hi,
I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262

It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
maximized.

The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
realistic given the timeframe for the project.

Does anyone have time to take on this freelancing project or know
someone who is available?

Thanks,
Stefan

Re: QEMU PPC VLE support

[Philippe Mathieu-Daudé]

Cc'ing qemu-ppc list

On 15/12/22 14:37, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
> Hi,
> I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
> to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
> https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262
> 
> It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
> maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
> Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
> maximized.
> 
> The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
> targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
> necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
> realistic given the timeframe for the project.
> 
> Does anyone have time to take on this freelancing project or know
> someone who is available?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stefan
> 

Re: QEMU PPC VLE support

[Ralf-Philipp Weinmann]

> On 15. Dec 2022, at 14:37, Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
> to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
> https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262
> 
> It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
> maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
> Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
> maximized.
> 
> The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
> targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
> necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
> realistic given the timeframe for the project.
> 
> Does anyone have time to take on this freelancing project or know
> someone who is available?

Thank you, Stefan!

We are open to having it implemented in C as well and doing the retooling to Rust at a later stage in 2023 as well. It's just that the current state of the PPC target in QEMU is kind of lacking for our purposes (which include emulating of firmware images used in the automotive industry).

Best Regards,
Ralf

--
Ralf-Philipp Weinmann
PGP: 4096R/8C07C5B7 D244D6F2E79B529BF5548F39B27967D58C07C5B7
============================================================
Comsecuris GmbH
Registered office: Diessemer Bruch 170, 47805 Krefeld
Commercial register: District Court Krefeld, HRB 18481
Director: Dr. Ralf-Philipp Weinmann

Re: QEMU PPC VLE support

[Stefan Hajnoczi]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 08:51, Ralf-Philipp Weinmann <ralf@comsecuris.com> wrote:
> > On 15. Dec 2022, at 14:37, Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
> > to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
> > https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262
> >
> > It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
> > maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
> > Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
> > maximized.
> >
> > The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
> > targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
> > necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
> > realistic given the timeframe for the project.
> >
> > Does anyone have time to take on this freelancing project or know
> > someone who is available?
>
> Thank you, Stefan!

It occurred to me that we could reach out to former QEMU Google Summer
of Code and Outreachy interns. They have prior QEMU contribution
experience and might have time to take on a freelancing gig.

Please let me know if you want to do that and I can put you in touch with them.

Stefan

Re: QEMU PPC VLE support

[Ralf-Philipp Weinmann]

> On 15. Dec 2022, at 15:06, Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 08:51, Ralf-Philipp Weinmann <ralf@comsecuris.com> wrote:
>>> On 15. Dec 2022, at 14:37, Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
>>> to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
>>> https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262
>>> 
>>> It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
>>> maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
>>> Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
>>> maximized.
>>> 
>>> The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
>>> targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
>>> necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
>>> realistic given the timeframe for the project.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have time to take on this freelancing project or know
>>> someone who is available?
>> 
>> Thank you, Stefan!
> 
> It occurred to me that we could reach out to former QEMU Google Summer
> of Code and Outreachy interns. They have prior QEMU contribution
> experience and might have time to take on a freelancing gig.
> 
> Please let me know if you want to do that and I can put you in touch with them.

Yes, please!

Best regards,
Ralf

--
Ralf-Philipp Weinmann
PGP: 4096R/8C07C5B7 D244D6F2E79B529BF5548F39B27967D58C07C5B7
============================================================
Comsecuris GmbH
Registered office: Diessemer Bruch 170, 47805 Krefeld
Commercial register: District Court Krefeld, HRB 18481
Director: Dr. Ralf-Philipp Weinmann

Re: QEMU PPC VLE support

[Peter Maydell]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 13:38, Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
> to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
> https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262
>
> It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
> maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
> Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
> maximized.
>
> The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
> targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
> necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
> realistic given the timeframe for the project.

Yes, "in Rust" is at this point a good way to ensure it will *not*
get upstream. Not because we have an antipathy to Rust
(indeed I think it's a good long-term goal to have)
but because as Stefan suggests we would need to start by
figuring out what a transition plan would look like, where
would be a good place to start looking at Rust-like APIs
for things, whether the community as a whole has enough
Rust enthusiasts to push the project forward, etc. What we
don't want is "QEMU is 99% C except the PPC target has this
one weird corner that's in Rust and doesn't fit well with
everything else". I look at how much effort the
Rust-in-Linux-kernel folks have had to put in to get to the
point where they are now, and while I hope we won't need to
do that much work, their general approach to it seems worth
paying attention to.

thanks
-- PMM

Re: QEMU PPC VLE support

[Daniel P. Berrangé]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 08:37:54AM -0500, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote:
> Hi,
> I came across this post where Ralf-Philipp is looking for a freelancer
> to implement PPC VLE support in QEMU:
> https://chaos.social/@rpw/109516326028642262
> 
> It mentions upstreaming the code and I've included QEMU PPC
> maintainers in this email so they can discuss the project with
> Ralf-Philipp. That way the chances of a mergable result will be
> maximized.
> 
> The Rust aspect is interesting, but QEMU does not have any existing
> targets implemented in Rust. It might be a major effort to create the
> necessary C<->Rust interfacing, so I'm not sure whether that's
> realistic given the timeframe for the project.

I'd very much like to see QEMU open up to use of Rust, but I don't
think we should be doing it in a piecemeal way where we special case
just one part.

If we're going to accept use of Rust, then its important that we
(the QEMU community) come to some general agreement for what our
intention is for the use fo Rust in QEMU

Running a paid-for development effort that intends to upstream
to QEMU feels like a pretty risky venture if it intends to use
Rust, prior to the QEMU community making a clear plan about our
wishes for use of Rust.

On the other hand, perhaps such an effort could force us to
actually make a decision. We've talked about Rust quite a few
times, but until someone has a concrete proposal for use of
Rust in QEMU context, we're likely to keep punting the decision
to a later date.

With regards,
Daniel
-- 
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