Re: [RFC 0/3] Introduce a new Qemu machine for RISC-V

["Daniel P. Berrangé" <berrange@redhat.com>]

On Thu, May 05, 2022 at 07:36:51PM +1000, Alistair Francis wrote:
> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:57 PM Atish Patra <atishp@atishpatra.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 5:26 PM Atish Patra <atishp@atishpatra.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 9:51 AM Daniel P. Berrangé <berrange@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 07:10:06PM -0700, Atish Patra wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The RISC-V virt machine has helped RISC-V software eco system to evolve at a
> > > > > rapid pace even in absense of the real hardware. It is definitely commendable.
> > > > > However, the number of devices & commandline options keeps growing as a result
> > > > > of that as well. That adds flexibility but will also become bit difficult
> > > > > to manage in the future as more extension support will be added. As it is the
> > > > > most commonly used qemu machine, it needs to support all kinds of device and
> > > > > interrupts as well. Moreover, virt machine has limitations on the maximum
> > > > > number of harts it can support because of all the MMIO devices it has to support.
> > > > >
> > > > > The RISC-V IMSIC specification allows to develop machines completely relying
> > > > > on MSI and don't care about the wired interrupts at all. It just requires
> > > > > all the devices to be present behind a PCI bus or present themselves as platform
> > > > > MSI device. The former is a more common scenario in x86 world where most
> > > > > of the devices are behind PCI bus. As there is very limited MMIO device
> > > > > support, it can also scale to very large number of harts.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's why, this patch series introduces a minimalistic yet very extensible
> > > > > forward looking machine called as "RISC-V Mini Computer" or "minic". The
> > > > > idea is to build PC or server like systems with this machine. The machine can
> > > > > work with or without virtio framework. The current implementation only
> > > > > supports RV64. I am not sure if building a RV32 machine would be of interest
> > > > > for such machines. The only mmio device it requires is clint to emulate
> > > > > the mtimecmp.
> > > >
> >
> > Any other thoughts ?
> 
> I don't *love* this idea. I think the virt machine is useful, but I'm
> not convinced we need a second one.
> 
> This feels a little bit more like a "none" machine, as it contains
> just the bare minimum to work.
> 
> >
> > > > I would ask what you see as the long term future usage for 'virt' vs
> > > > 'minic' machine types ? Would you expect all existing users of 'virt'
> > > > to ultimately switch to 'minic', or are there distinct non-overlapping
> > > > use cases for 'virt' vs 'minic' such that both end up widely used ?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Nope. I don't expect existing 'virt' users to switch to 'minic' as
> > > they aim to cater to different users.
> > >
> > > Here are the major differences
> > > 1. virt machine supports MMIO devices & wired interrupts. Minic doesn't
> 
> This seems like the main difference
> 
> > > 2. virt machine doesn't support the MSI only option yet (can be added
> > > though[1]). Minic does.
> 
> This could be fixed
> 
> > > 3. Number of cpu supported by virt machine are limited because of the
> > > MMIO devices. Minic can scale to very
> > > large numbers of cpu.
> 
> Similar to 1
> 
> > > 4. 'Minic' only supports PCI based MSI capable devices. Thus, MSI is a
> > > mandatory requirement for 'minic' while
> > > it is optional for 'virt'.
> 
> I'm not fully convinced we need this, but it also doesn't seem to cost
> us a lot in terms of maintenance. It would be beneficial if we could
> share a bit more of the code. Can we share the socket creation code as
> well?
> 
> I don't like the name minic though. What about something like
> `virt-hpc`, `virt-pcie-minimal` or something like that? That way we
> indicate it's still a virt board

We're not versioning the 'virt' machine type right so. IOW, we've not
made any promises about its long term featureset. 

If the virt machine type isn't the perfect match right now, should
we change it, in a potentially incompatible way, to give us the right
solution long term, rather than introducing a brand new machine type
with significant overlap.


With regards,
Daniel
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