From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E69ECAC5AA for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 08:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v1hbc-0001Y4-Ff; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 04:45:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v1hbQ-0001XU-OV for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 04:45:24 -0400 Received: from casper.infradead.org ([2001:8b0:10b:1236::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1v1hbA-0002Ag-Sv for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 04:45:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=M9u8mUKPAfSDyBXsKc1oLFsIrFGjSYqd9GDM3NLoJFg=; b=Xa2YNm5qEFdSwu7EBEEXgm74/F wFf4dqIbEnqbGZ1oE7lDjj+jyJaJ6b7ZDCSC1I7alkfGN8lVhMMm1f9bxneFTmXEu5fsAL27HX/0b puTVFJCda8zw/YwaqN+wZ+mn1JLJKZ1BlrOmbyYI3oz86/pLkHMNfM7UKeWWrbuqyvUzLdjcqGeKy 95MZ3qN4lPH4iJdqmIEYx5C5qAfeUIuN1Axe65zR8qSxIWnN5f+YtQnZEhkOOaB4m/W/s2y1hZt6B lcSDfJIXnXH3Rg1557j1y0YsZCVHNxOdYwokoMzo6MeL7zskffUWpqtE9/Ro6HyaiUl5kWAoqUlKY liHnrzAQ==; Received: from [172.31.31.148] (helo=u09cd745991455d.lumleys.internal) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.98.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1v1hav-00000000GyT-2pV9; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 08:44:54 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Should QEMU (accel=kvm) kvm-clock/guest_tsc stop counting during downtime blackout? From: David Woodhouse To: Dongli Zhang , qemu-devel@nongnu.org Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 09:44:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2cf13be8-cd27-4bfb-af8e-ef33286d633b@oracle.com> References: <2d375ec3-a071-4ae3-b03a-05a823c48016@oracle.com> <3d30b662b8cdb2d25d9b4c5bae98af1c45fac306.camel@infradead.org> <1e9f9c64-af03-466b-8212-ce5c828aac6e@oracle.com> <7d91b34c-36fe-44ee-8a2a-fb00eaebddd8@oracle.com> <71b79d3819b5f5435b7bc7d8c451be0d276e02db.camel@infradead.org> <2e958c58d1d1f0107475b3d91f7a6f2a28da13de.camel@infradead.org> <2cf13be8-cd27-4bfb-af8e-ef33286d633b@oracle.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-8mqoIiVtnlclBKnvEqXL" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html Received-SPF: none client-ip=2001:8b0:10b:1236::1; envelope-from=BATV+205e12e154e5edb89d5b+8068+infradead.org+dwmw2@casper.srs.infradead.org; helo=casper.infradead.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org --=-8mqoIiVtnlclBKnvEqXL Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2025-09-24 at 13:53 -0700, Dongli Zhang wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/23/25 10:47 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Tue, 2025-09-23 at 10:25 -0700, Dongli Zhang wrote: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On 9/23/25 9:26 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2025-09-22 at 12:37 -0700, Dongli Zhang wrote: > > > > > On 9/22/25 11:16 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > >=20 > > > [snip] > > >=20 > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > As demonstrated in my test, currently guest_tsc doesn't stop = counting during > > > > > > > blackout because of the lack of "MSR_IA32_TSC put" at > > > > > > > kvmclock_vm_state_change(). Per my understanding, it is a bug= and we may need to > > > > > > > fix it. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > BTW, kvmclock_vm_state_change() already utilizes KVM_SET_CLOC= K to re-configure > > > > > > > kvm-clock before continuing the guest VM. > > > >=20 > > > > Yeah, right now it's probably just introducing errors for a stop/st= art > > > > of the VM. > > >=20 > > > But that help can meet the expectation? > > >=20 > > > Thanks to KVM_GET_CLOCK and KVM_SET_CLOCK, QEMU saves the clock with > > > KVM_GET_CLOCK when the VM is stopped, and restores it with KVM_SET_CL= OCK when > > > the VM is continued. > >=20 > > It saves the actual *value* of the clock. I would prefer to phrase that > > as "it makes the clock jump backwards to the time at which the guest > > was paused". > >=20 > > > This ensures that the clock value itself does not change between stop= and cont. > > >=20 > > > However, QEMU does not adjust the TSC offset via MSR_IA32_TSC during = stop. > > >=20 > > > As a result, when execution resumes, the guest TSC suddenly jumps for= ward. > >=20 > > Oh wow, that seems really broken. If we're going to make it experience > > a time warp, we should at least be *consistent*. > >=20 > > So a guest which uses the TSC for timekeeping should be mostly > > unaffected by this and its wallclock should still be accurate. A guest > > which uses the KVM clock will be hosed by it. > >=20 > > I think we should fix this so that the KVM clock is unaffected too. >=20 > From my understanding of your reply, the kvm-clock/tsc should always be a= djusted > whenever a QEMU VM is paused and then resumed (i.e. via stop/cont). I think I agree, except I still hate the way you use the word 'adjusted'. If I look at my clock, and then go to sleep for a while and look at the clock again, nobody *adjusts* it. It just keeps running. That's the effect we should always strive for, and that's how we should think about it and talk about it. It's difficult to talk about clocks because what does it mean for a clock to be "unchanged"? Does it mean that it should return the same time value? Or that it should continue to count consistently? I would argue that we should *always* use language which assumes the latter. Turning to physics for a clumsy analogy, it's about the frame of reference. We're all on a moving train. I look at you in the seat opposite me, I go to sleep for a while, and I wake up and you're still there. Nobody has "adjusted" your position to accommodate for the movement of the train while I was asleep. > This applies to: >=20 > - stop / cont > - savevm / loadvm > - live migration > - cpr >=20 > It is a bug if the clock jumps backwards to the time at which the guest w= as paused. >=20 > The time elapsed while the VM is paused should always be accounted for an= d > reflected in kvm-clock/tsc once the VM resumes. In particular, in *all* but the live migration case, there should be basically nothing to do. No addition, no subtraction. Only restoring the *existing* relationships, precisely as they were before. That is the TSC *offset* value, and the precise TSC=E2=86=92kvmclock parameters, al= l bitwise *exactly* the same as before. And the only thing that changes on live migration is that you have to set the TSC offset such that the guest sees the values it *would* have seen on the original host at any given moment in time... and doesn't know it was kidnapped and moved onto a different train while it was sleeping...? --=-8mqoIiVtnlclBKnvEqXL Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD9Aw ggSOMIIDdqADAgECAhAOmiw0ECVD4cWj5DqVrT9PMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0yNDAxMzAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MDkyMzU5NTlaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkFVMRAwDgYDVQQKEwdWZXJva2V5MSAwHgYDVQQDExdWZXJv a2V5IFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBHMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMjvgLKj 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