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Mon, 12 Dec 2022 18:58:30 GMT Received: from smtpav03.wdc07v.mail.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3724658054; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 18:58:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpav03.wdc07v.mail.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66D158062; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 18:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [9.47.158.152] (unknown [9.47.158.152]) by smtpav03.wdc07v.mail.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 18:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:58:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.5.1 Subject: Re: [PATCH] tpm: add backend for mssim Content-Language: en-US To: jejb@linux.ibm.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Daniel_P=2e_Berrang=c3=a9?= Cc: qemu-devel@nongnu.org, Markus Armbruster References: <4780481659602f92fffacac66e7dca41ad2787c4.camel@linux.ibm.com> <8066be497c4c81827b24a672a550a805e06eec68.camel@linux.ibm.com> From: Stefan Berger In-Reply-To: <8066be497c4c81827b24a672a550a805e06eec68.camel@linux.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: tkhu8CzozMzU97JJXHUhP6FPbqudobAT X-Proofpoint-GUID: 6aHJ7oS8l7PfOas5oyO6g2nr1fUvyQHR Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Proofpoint-UnRewURL: 0 URL was un-rewritten MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.923,Hydra:6.0.545,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2022-12-12_02,2022-12-12_02,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=664 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2210170000 definitions=main-2212120168 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=148.163.158.5; envelope-from=stefanb@linux.ibm.com; helo=mx0b-001b2d01.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org On 12/12/22 13:48, James Bottomley wrote: > On Mon, 2022-12-12 at 11:59 -0500, Stefan Berger wrote: >> >> >> On 12/12/22 11:38, James Bottomley wrote: >>> On Mon, 2022-12-12 at 15:47 +0000, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: >>>> Copy'ing Markus for QAPI design feedback. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 12:10:18PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: >>>>> The Microsoft Simulator (mssim) is the reference emulation >>>>> platform for the TCG TPM 2.0 specification. >>>>> >>>>> https://github.com/Microsoft/ms-tpm-20-ref.git >>>>> >>>>> It exports a fairly simple network socket baset protocol on two >>>>> sockets, one for command (default 2321) and one for control >>>>> (default 2322).  This patch adds a simple backend that can >>>>> speak the mssim protocol over the network.  It also allows the >>>>> host, and two ports to be specified on the qemu command line. >>>>> The benefits are twofold: firstly it gives us a backend that >>>>> actually speaks a standard TPM emulation protocol instead of >>>>> the linux specific TPM driver format of the current emulated >>>>> TPM backend and secondly, using the microsoft protocol, the end >>>>> point of the emulator can be anywhere on the network, >>>>> facilitating the cloud use case where a central TPM service can >>>>> be used over a control network. >>>> >>>> What's the story with security for this ?  The patch isn't using >>>> TLS, so talking to any emulator over anything other than >>>> localhost looks insecure, unless I'm missing something. >>> >>> Pretty much every TPM application fears interposers and should thus >>> be using the TPM transport security anyway. *If* this is the case, >>> then the transport is secure.  Note that this currently isn't the >>> case for >> >> What about all the older kernels that are out there? > > No current kernel uses transport security. In the event the patch > eventually gets upstream, the kernel be secure against interposer > attacks going forwards. I would imagine there might be pressure to > backport the patch given the current level of worry about interposers. > >>> the kernel use of the TPM, but I'm trying to fix that.  The >>> standard mssim server is too simplistic to do transport layer >>> security, but like everything that does this (or rather doesn't do >>> this), you can front it with stunnel4. >> >> And who or what is going to set this up? > > I'm not sure I understand the question. Stunnel4 is mostly used to > convert unencrypted proxies like imap on 143 or smtp on 25 to the > secure version. Most people who run servers are fairly familiar with > using it. It's what IBM used for encrypted migration initially. You > can run stunnel on both ends, or the qemu side could be built in using > the qemu tls-creds way of doing things but anything running the > standard MS server would have to front it with stunnel still. So it's up to libvirt to setup stunnel to support a completely different setup than what it has for swtpm already? Stefan > > James >