From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1B87C3DA49 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:30:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sX61s-0000i8-5W; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:29:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sX61q-0000hJ-U6 for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:29:38 -0400 Received: from casper.infradead.org ([2001:8b0:10b:1236::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sX61n-0006lA-VF for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:29:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=Q90uc4LOnmdv2OKNqlUC9fycnepRosE/8g5PuihVQG8=; b=REJ+iBQeySSH9OaarXgFn5Hmtp Jy7LBWC+g1YbDnBIeEvuReXSOlCnLDIr9jsyT43yP5RKZTbPgBH5n+HInGmvfYE40IRz0egaSkHdF 0dysbYSdMlBGRuE/qTwM1FRa3DUQIuVTXG8y7fwz4ut21puaSekx+OBmsEBWI4A35wMEdMVZxeWD5 n9J9Pe2+XXXnI/ekPZlKgI72HuA9KBE/kkiWAXk8GGw0Qjt4fH7zjBtX8o0Q4LKB95+harAb00TNS fHAU/fR330mu9yECcNlyEY/ghF7SEArc3nv/WYfkHYe6lPsRGaRYyqixy7v3qQHaUqRFTLcr1oFh0 fXPgcEMA==; Received: from [2001:8b0:10b:5::bb3] (helo=u3832b3a9db3152.infradead.org) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.97.1 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1sX61X-00000009Ory-2ouN; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 21:29:19 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] ptp: Add vDSO-style vmclock support From: David Woodhouse To: "Michael S. Tsirkin" Cc: Richard Cochran , Peter Hilber , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, virtualization@lists.linux.dev, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org, "Ridoux, Julien" , virtio-dev@lists.linux.dev, "Luu, Ryan" , "Chashper, David" , "Mohamed Abuelfotoh, Hazem" , "Christopher S . Hall" , Jason Wang , John Stultz , netdev@vger.kernel.org, Stephen Boyd , Thomas Gleixner , Xuan Zhuo , Marc Zyngier , Mark Rutland , Daniel Lezcano , Alessandro Zummo , Alexandre Belloni , qemu-devel , Simon Horman Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 22:29:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20240725170328-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> References: <20240725082828-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20240725083215-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <98813a70f6d3377d3a9d502fd175be97334fcc87.camel@infradead.org> <20240725100351-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <2a27205bfc61e19355d360f428a98e2338ff68c3.camel@infradead.org> <20240725122603-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <0959390cad71b451dc19e5f9396d3f4fdb8fd46f.camel@infradead.org> <20240725163843-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20240725170328-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-BGTznpejpLNvtJPOhuTG" User-Agent: Evolution 3.44.4-0ubuntu2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html Received-SPF: none client-ip=2001:8b0:10b:1236::1; envelope-from=BATV+24aa3f22b0bcc14e6bb8+7641+infradead.org+dwmw2@casper.srs.infradead.org; helo=casper.infradead.org X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org --=-BGTznpejpLNvtJPOhuTG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2024-07-25 at 17:04 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 10:00:24PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Thu, 2024-07-25 at 16:50 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 08:35:40PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2024-07-25 at 12:38 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 04:18:43PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > > > > The use case isn't necessarily for all users of gettimeofday(),= of > > > > > > course; this is for those applications which *need* precision t= ime. > > > > > > Like distributed databases which rely on timestamps for coheren= cy, and > > > > > > users who get fined millions of dollars when LM messes up their= clocks > > > > > > and they put wrong timestamps on financial transactions. > > > > >=20 > > > > > I would however worry that with all this pass through, > > > > > applications have to be coded to each hypervisor or even > > > > > version of the hypervisor. > > > >=20 > > > > Yes, that would be a problem. Which is why I feel it's so important= to > > > > harmonise the contents of the shared memory, and I'm implementing i= t > > > > both QEMU and $DAYJOB, as well as aligning with virtio-rtc. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Writing an actual spec for this would be another thing that might hel= p. Potentially, although working over it with our internal clock team and with Peter on virtio-rtc has put us in good shape. I'm confident now that we have something that's viable and extensible enough. > > >=20 > > > > > virtio has been developed with the painful experience that we kee= p > > > > > making mistakes, or coming up with new needed features, > > > > > and that maintaining forward and backward compatibility > > > > > becomes a whole lot harder than it seems in the beginning. > > > >=20 > > > > Yes. But as you note, this shared memory structure is a userspace A= BI > > > > all of its own, so we get to make a completely *different* kind of > > > > mistake :) > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > So, something I still don't completely understand. > > > Can't the VDSO thing be written to by kernel? > > > Let's say on LM, an interrupt triggers and kernel copies > > > data from a specific device to the VDSO. > > >=20 > > > Is that problematic somehow? I imagine there is a race where > > > userspace reads vdso after lm but before kernel updated > > > vdso - is that the concern? Yes. > > > Then can't we fix it by interrupting all CPUs right after LM? > > >=20 > > > To me that seems like a cleaner approach - we then compartmentalize > > > the ABI issue - kernel has its own ABI against userspace, > > > devices have their own ABI against kernel. > > > It'd mean we need a way to detect that interrupt was sent, > > > maybe yet another counter inside that structure. > > >=20 > > > WDYT? > > >=20 > > > By the way the same idea would work for snapshots - > > > some people wanted to expose that info to userspace, too. Those people included me. I wanted to interrupt all the vCPUs, even the ones which were in userspace at the moment of migration, and have the kernel deal with passing it on to userspace via a different ABI. It ends up being complex and intricate, and requiring a lot of new kernel and userspace support. I gave up on it in the end for snapshots, and didn't go there again for this. By contrast, a driver which merely exposes a page of MMIO space identified by an ACPI device (without even the in-kernel PTP support) could probably be fewer than a hundred lines of code. In an externally- buildable module that goes back as far as RHEL8 or even further, allowing users to just build and use it from their application. > was there supposed to be text here, or did you just like this > so much you decided to repost my mail ;)=20 Hm, weirdness. I've known Evolution get into a state where it sends completely *empty* messages, but I've never seen it eat only my own part before. 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