From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=3.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7933C3A59F for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:58:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CD812070B for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:58:59 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 7CD812070B Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Received: from localhost ([::1]:53078 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i3OhG-000618-NN for qemu-devel@archiver.kernel.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 13:58:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39673) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i3OgR-0005W7-8s for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 13:58:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i3OgN-0001n9-MK for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 13:58:06 -0400 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:56138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i3OgJ-0001l0-Ro; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 13:58:00 -0400 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx03.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1717D10F23EA; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:57:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.18.17.85] (dhcp-17-85.bos.redhat.com [10.18.17.85]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9A86092D; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:57:43 +0000 (UTC) To: Christophe de Dinechin , qemu-devel@nongnu.org References: <20190814100735.24234-1-vsementsov@virtuozzo.com> <20190814100735.24234-3-vsementsov@virtuozzo.com> <3eded188-0161-d494-194c-9d67da644eb1@redhat.com> <20190815104928.GC7415@linux.fritz.box> <20190815114553.GQ300@andariel.pipo.sk> <87d0h6zfrt.fsf@dusky.pond.sub.org> From: John Snow Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jsnow@redhat.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFTKefwBEAChvwqYC6saTzawbih87LqBYq0d5A8jXYXaiFMV/EvMSDqqY4EY6whXliNO IYzhgrPEe7ZmPxbCSe4iMykjhwMh5byIHDoPGDU+FsQty2KXuoxto+ZdrP9gymAgmyqdk3aV vzzmCa3cOppcqKvA0Kqr10UeX/z4OMVV390V+DVWUvzXpda45/Sxup57pk+hyY52wxxjIqef rj8u5BN93s5uCVTus0oiVA6W+iXYzTvVDStMFVqnTxSxlpZoH5RGKvmoWV3uutByQyBPHW2U 1Y6n6iEZ9MlP3hcDqlo0S8jeP03HaD4gOqCuqLceWF5+2WyHzNfylpNMFVi+Hp0H/nSDtCvQ ua7j+6Pt7q5rvqgHvRipkDDVsjqwasuNc3wyoHexrBeLU/iJBuDld5iLy+dHXoYMB3HmjMxj 3K5/8XhGrDx6BDFeO3HIpi3u2z1jniB7RtyVEtdupED6lqsDj0oSz9NxaOFZrS3Jf6z/kHIf h42mM9Sx7+s4c07N2LieUxcfqhFTaa/voRibF4cmkBVUhOD1AKXNfhEsTvmcz9NbUchCkcvA T9119CrsxfVsE7bXiGvdXnzyGLXdsoosjzwacKdOrVaDmN3Uy+SHiQXo6TlkSdV0XH2PUxTM LsBFIO9qXO43Ai6J6iPAP/01l8fuZfpJE0/L/c25yyaND7xA3wARAQABtCpKb2huIFNub3cg KEpvaG4gSHVzdG9uKSA8anNub3dAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT6JAlQEEwECAD4CGwMCHgECF4AFCwkI BwMFFQoJCAsFFgIDAQAWIQT665cRoSz0dYEvGPKIqQZNGDVh6wUCXF392gUJC1Xq3gAKCRCI qQZNGDVh6558D/9pM4pu4njX5aT6uUW3vAmbWLF1jfPxiTQgSHAnm9EBMZED/fsvkzj97clo LN7JKmbYZNgJmR01A7flG45V4iOR/249qAfaVuD+ZzZi1R4jFzr13WS+IEdn0hYp9ITndb7R ezW+HGu6/rP2PnfmDnNowgJu6Dp6IUEabq8SXXwGHXZPuMIrsXJxUdKJdGnh1o2u7271yNO7 J9PEMuMDsgjsdnaGtv7aQ9CECtXvBleAc06pLW2HU10r5wQyBMZGITemJdBhhdzGmbHAL0M6 vKi/bafHRWqfMqOAdDkv3Jg4arl2NCG/uNateR1z5e529+UlB4XVAQT+f5T/YyI65DFTY940 il3aZhA8u788jZEPMXmt94u7uPZbEYp7V0jt68SrTaOgO7NaXsboXFjwEa42Ug5lB5d5/Qdp 1AITUv0NJ51kKwhHL1dEagGeloIsGVQILmpS0MLdtitBHqZLsnJkRvtMaxo47giyBlv2ewmq tIGTlVLxHx9xkc9aVepOuiGlZaZB72c9AvZs9rKaAjgU2UfJHlB/Hr4uSk/1EY0IgMv4vnsG 1sA5gvS7A4T4euu0PqHtn2sZEWDrk5RDbw0yIb53JYdXboLFmFXKzVASfKh2ZVeXRBlQQSJi 3PBR1GzzqORlfryby7mkY857xzCI2NkIkD2eq+HhzFTfFOTdGrkCDQRUynn8ARAAwbhP45BE d/zAMBPV2dk2WwIwKRSKULElP3kXpcuiDWYQob3UODUUqClO+3aXVRndaNmZX9WbzGYexVo3 5j+CVBCGr3DlU8AL9pp3KQ3SJihWcDed1LSmUf8tS+10d6mdGxDqgnd/OWU214isvhgWZtZG MM/Xj7cx5pERIiP+jqu7PT1cibcfcEKhPjYdyV1QnLtKNGrTg/UMKaL+qkWBUI/8uBoa0HLs NH63bXsRtNAG8w6qG7iiueYZUIXKc4IHINUguqYQJVdSe+u8b2N5XNhDSEUhdlqFYraJvX6d TjxMTW5lzVG2KjztfErRNSUmu2gezbw1/CV0ztniOKDA7mkQi6UIUDRh4LxRm5mflfKiCyDQ L6P/jxHBxFv+sIgjuLrfNhIC1p3z9rvCh+idAVJgtHtYl8p6GAVrF+4xQV2zZH45tgmHo2+S JsLPjXZtWVsWANpepXnesyabWtNAV4qQB7/SfC77zZwsVX0OOY2Qc+iohmXo8U7DgXVDgl/R /5Qgfnlv0/3rOdMt6ZPy5LJr8D9LJmcP0RvX98jyoBOf06Q9QtEwJsNLCOCo2LKNL71DNjZr nXEwjUH66CXiRXDbDKprt71BiSTitkFhGGU88XCtrp8R9yArXPf4MN+wNYBjfT7K29gWTzxt 9DYQIvEf69oZD5Z5qHYGp031E90AEQEAAYkCPAQYAQIAJgIbDBYhBPrrlxGhLPR1gS8Y8oip Bk0YNWHrBQJcXf3JBQkLVerNAAoJEIipBk0YNWHrU1AP/1FOK2SBGbyhHa5vDHuf47fgLipC e0/h1E0vdSonzlhPxuZoQ47FjzG9uOhqqQG6/PqtWs/FJIyz8aGG4aV+pSA/9Ko3/2ND8MSY ZflWs7Y8Peg08Ro01GTHFITjEUgHpTpHiT6TNcZB5aZNJ8jqCtW5UlqvXXbVeSTmO70ZiVtc vUJbpvSxYmzhFfZWaXIPcNcKWL1rnmnzs67lDhMLdkYVf91aml/XtyMUlfB8Iaejzud9Ht3r C0pA9MG57pLblX7okEshxAC0+tUdY2vANWFeX0mgqRt1GSuG9XM9H/cKP1czfUV/FgaWo/Ya fM4eMhUAlL/y+/AJxxumPhBXftM4yuiktp2JMezoIMJI9fmhjfWDw7+2jVrx9ze1joLakFD1 rVAoHxVJ7ORfQ4Ni/qWbQm3T6qQkSMt4N/scNsMczibdTPxU7qtwQwIeFOOc3wEwmJ9Qe3ox TODQ0agXiWVj0OXYCHJ6MxTDswtyTGQW+nUHpKBgHGwUaR6d1kr/LK9+5LpOfRlK9VRfEu7D PGNiRkr8Abp8jHsrBqQWfUS1bAf62bq6XUel0kUCtb7qCq024aOczXYWPFpJFX+nhp4d7NeH Edq+wlC13sBSiSHC7T5yssJ+7JPa2ATLlSKhEvBsLe2TsSTTtFlA0nBclqhfJXzimiuge9qU E40lvMWBuQINBFTKimUBEADDbJ+pQ5M4QBMWkaWImRj7c598xIZ37oKM6rGaSnuB1SVb7YCr Ci2MTwQcrQscA2jm80O8VFqWk+/XsEp62dty47GVwSfdGje/3zv3VTH2KhOCKOq3oPP5ZXWY rz2d2WnTvx++o6lU7HLHDEC3NGLYNLkL1lyVxLhnhvcMxkf1EGA1DboEcMgnJrNB1pGP27ww cSfvdyPGseV+qZZa8kuViDga1oxmnYDxFKMGLxrClqHrRt8geQL1Wj5KFM5hFtGTK4da5lPn wGNd6/CINMeCT2AWZY5ySz7/tSZe5F22vPvVZGoPgQicYWdNc3ap7+7IKP86JNjmec/9RJcz jvrYjJdiqBVldXou72CtDydKVLVSKv8c2wBDJghYZitfYIaL8cTvQfUHRYTfo0n5KKSec8Vo vjDuxmdbOUBA+SkRxqmneP5OxGoZ92VusrwWCjry8HRsNdR+2T+ClDCO6Wpihu4V3CPkQwTy eCuMHPAT0ka5paTwLrnZIxsdfnjUa96T10vzmQgAxpbbiaLvgKJ8+76OPdDnhddyxd2ldYfw RkF5PEGg3mqZnYKNNBtwjvX49SAvgETQvLzQ8IKVgZS0m4z9qHHvtc1BsQnFfe+LJOFjzZr7 CrDNJMqk1JTHYsSi2JcN3vY32WMezXSQ0TzeMK4kdnclSQyp/h23GWod5QARAQABiQRbBBgB AgAmAhsCFiEE+uuXEaEs9HWBLxjyiKkGTRg1YesFAlxd/coFCQtV2mQCKcFdIAQZAQIABgUC VMqKZQAKCRB974EGqvw5DiJoEACLmuiRq9ifvOh5DyBFwRS7gvA14DsGQngmC57EzV0EFcfM XVi1jX5OtwUyUe0Az5r6lHyyHDsDsIpLKBlWrYCeLpUhRR3oy181T7UNxvujGFeTkzvLAOo6 Hs3b8Wv9ARg+7acRYkQRNY7k0GIJ6YZz149tRyRKAy/vSjsaB9Lt0NOd1wf2EQMKwRVELwJD y0AazGn+0PRP7Bua2YbtxaBmhBBDb2tPpwn8U9xdckB4Vlft9lcWNsC/18Gi9bpjd9FSbdH/ sOUI+3ToWYENeoT4IP09wn6EkgWaJS3nAUN/MOycNej2i4Yhy2wDDSKyTAnVkSSSoXk+tK91 HfqtokbDanB8daP+K5LgoiWHzjfWzsxA2jKisI4YCGjrYQzTyGOT6P6u6SEeoEx10865B/zc 8/vN50kncdjYz2naacIDEKQNZlnGLsGkpCbfmfdi3Zg4vuWKNdWr0wGUzDUcpqW0y/lUXna+ 6uyQShX5e4JD2UPuf9WAQ9HtgSAkaDd4O1I2J41sleePzZOVB3DmYgy+ECRJJ5nw3ihdxpgc y/v3lfcJaqiyCv0PF+K/gSOvwhH7CbVqARmptT7yhhxqFdaYWo2Z2ksuKyoKSRMFCXQY5oac uTmyPIT4STFyUQFeqSCWDum/NFNoSKhmItw2Td+4VSJHShRVbg39KNFPZ7mXYAkQiKkGTRg1 YesWJA/+PV3qDUtPNEGwjVvjQqHSbrBy94tu6gJvPHgGPtRDYvxnCaJsmgiC0pGB2KFRsnfl 2zBNBEWF/XwsI081jQE5UO60GKmHTputChLXpVobyuc+lroG2YhknXRBAV969SLnZR4BS/1s Gi046gOXfaKYatve8BiZr5it5Foq3FMPDNgZMit1H9Dk8rkKFfDMRf8EGS/Z+TmyEsIf99H7 TH3n7lco8qO81fSFwkh4pvo2kWRFYTC5vsIVQ+GqVUp+W1DZJHxX8LwWuF1AzUt4MUTtNAvy TXl5EgsmoY9mpNNL7ZnW65oG63nEP5KNiybvuQJzXVxR8eqzOh2Mod4nHg3PE7UCd3DvLNsn GXFRo44WyT/G2lArBtjpkut7bDm0i1nENABy2UgS+1QvdmgNu6aEZxdNthwRjUhuuvCCDMA4 rCDQYyakH2tJNQgkXkeLodBKF4bHiBbuwj0E39S9wmGgg+q4OTnAO/yhQGknle7a7G5xHBwE i0HjnLoJP5jDcoMTabZTIazXmJz3pKM11HYJ5/ZsTIf3ZRJJKIvXJpbmcAPVwTZII6XxiJdh RSSX4Mvd5pL/+5WI6NTdW6DMfigTtdd85fe6PwBNVJL2ZvBfsBJZ5rxg1TOH3KLsYBqBTgW2 glQofxhkJhDEcvjLhe3Y2BlbCWKOmvM8XS9TRt0OwUs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 13:57:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 10.5.11.13 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.66]); Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:57:59 +0000 (UTC) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.132.183.28 Subject: Re: [Qemu-devel] [libvirt] [PATCH 2/2] qapi: deprecate implicit filters X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Kevin Wolf , Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy , qemu-block@nongnu.org, libvir-list@redhat.com, mreitz@redhat.com, den@openvz.org Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: "Qemu-devel" On 8/29/19 12:45 PM, Christophe de Dinechin wrote: > > Markus Armbruster writes: > >> Peter Krempa writes: >> > [...] >>> From my experience users report non-fatal messages mostly only if it is >>> spamming the system log. One of instances are very unlikely to be >>> noticed. >>> >>> In my experience it's better to notify us in libvirt of such change and >>> we will try our best to fix it. >> >> How to best alert the layers above QEMU was one of the topic of the KVM >> Forum 2018 BoF on deprecating stuff. Minutes: >> >> Message-ID: <87mur0ls8o.fsf@dusky.pond.sub.org> >> https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2018-10/msg05828.html >> >> Relevant part: >> >> * We need to communicate "you're using something that is deprecated". >> How? Right now, we print a deprecation message. Okay when humans use >> QEMU directly in a shell. However, when QEMU sits at the bottom of a >> software stack, the message will likely end up in a log file that is >> effectively write-only. >> >> - The one way to get people read log files is crashing their >> application. A command line option --future could make QEMU crash >> right after printing a deprecation message. This could help with >> finding use of deprecated features in a testing environment. >> >> - A less destructive way to grab people's attention is to make things >> run really, really slow: have QEMU go to sleep for a while after >> printing a deprecation message. >> >> - We can also pass the buck to the next layer up: emit a QMP event. >> >> Sadly, by the time the next layer connects to QMP, plenty of stuff >> already happened. We'd have to buffer deprecation events somehow. >> >> What would libvirt do with such an event? Log it, taint the domain, >> emit a (libvirt) event to pass it on to the next layer up. >> >> - A completely different idea is to have a configuratin linter. To >> support doing this at the libvirt level, QEMU could expose "is >> deprecated" in interface introspection. Feels feasible for QMP, >> where we already have sufficiently expressive introspection. For >> CLI, we'd first have to provide that (but we want that anyway). >> >> - We might also want to dispay deprecation messages in QEMU's GUI >> somehow, or on serial consoles. > > Sorry for catching up late, this mail thread happened during my PTO. > > I remember bringing up at the time [1] that the correct solution needs > to take into account usage models that vary from > > - a workstation case, where displaying an error box is easy and > convenient, > > - to local headless VMs where system-level notification would do the job > better, allowing us to leverage things like system-wide email notifications > > - to large-scale collections of VMs managed by some layered product, > where the correct reporting would be through something like Insights, > i.e. you don't scan individual logs, you want something like "913 VMs > are using deprecated X" > > To me, that implies that we need to have a clear division of roles, with > a standard way to > > a) produce the errors, > b) propagate them, I started replying to this thread to the other mail you sent; I think this is going to be fairly involved. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though. > c) consume them (at least up to libvirt) > > Notice that this work has already been done for "real" errors, > i.e. there is a real QAPI notion of "errors". AFAICT, warn_report does > not connect to it, though, it goes through error_vprintf which is really > just basic logging. > > So would it make sense to: > > 1. Add a deprecation_report() alongside warn_report()? > Where's that get routed to? just an error_vprintf style situation? > 2. Connect warn_report() and all the error_vprintf output to QAPI, > e.g. using John's suggestion of adding the messages using some > "warning" or "deprecated" tag? > How do you correlate them? > 3. Teach libvirt how to consume that new tag and pass it along? > I think it's not libvirt's job to pass it along, exactly -- libvirt made the decision for which features to engage in QEMU, not the end user. If the user upgrades QEMU but not libvirt, it's not really anything they have control over and they shouldn't be pestered with such things. However, if libvirt accidentally released a version that engages deprecated behavior (and were unaware of it), it'd be nice to get user reports, surely? Logging messages for libvirt might be the best that can be done there in that case. In contrast, power user tools like QMP libraries, qmp-shell and others allow more direct and meaningful access to QMP, so those should report deprecation messages to the user. > > [1] https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2018-10/msg06131.html > > > -- > Cheers, > Christophe de Dinechin (IRC c3d) >