From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C2pcS-0005gH-FA for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:19:08 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C2pcR-0005g5-MQ for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:19:08 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2pcR-0005fv-Ky for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:19:07 -0400 Received: from [80.254.179.61] (helo=x41.ch) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C2pX0-0006HT-9l for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:13:30 -0400 From: "Info" Subject: Re: [Qemu-devel] Qemu development schedule? Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:20:29 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1094058220.3304.60.camel@aragorn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: qemu-devel@nongnu.org List-Id: qemu-devel.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: jhoger@pobox.com, qemu-devel@nongnu.org Thanks for clarifying this to some people. I have seen a lot of other newslists where similar people are complaining about the free and good work of genious persons. I like this project and it helps some people to get there old OS and apps working on a new machine. Why should the normal user relearn every thing again when he got his apps that do what he need ? Thanks to Fabrice and all supporting people. Andreas On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:03:40 -0700 "John R. Hogerhuis" wrote: >*This message was transferred with a trial version of >CommuniGate(tm) Pro* >On Tue, 2004-08-31 at 10:40, Jeebs wrote: > >> No, I'm saying it because I am concerned that how Qemu >>has been developed in >> the past will soon turn out to be a liability and impeed >>future progress. >> > >I'll believe it when I see it. For now, progress is >fantastic. You not >being a developer means you don't know what you're >talking about. So how >can you provide constructive criticism about development >methodology? Do >you claim to know under what conditions Fabrice and those >who provide >patches here, are effective, efficient developers? > >> >> >> At some point, successful open source projects have >>to transition from >> >> the >> >> 'free for all' attitude and organization to one with >>some actual >> >> specified >> >> goals and some organization. >> > >> > Why? >> >> Because most non-'toy' projects fail if they don't >>adapt. >> > >Can you say passive aggressive? Your attitude implicit in >the way you >say things is very negative. You will catch more flies >with honey than >vinegar. Implying QEMU is a toy project is what you just >did, that's >just going to piss off the folks that know you're wrong, >and they will >stop listening to you, as I am about to do. > >> Non-developers have different expectations. Even if >>they don't expect 100% >> perfect results and bug-free code, they still have >>different expectations, >> and a 'developer' attitude rarely addresses those kinds >>of expectations. >> > >And non-programmers apparently have different >expectations than >programmers, like, if someone places software for freely >available for >download they are inviting me to come and whine about how >they organize >the development they do in their free time... > >How would you like your boss to show up at your house on >the weekend and >give you advice on how to deal with your personal issues, >or organize >your chores more effectively and efficiently around your >house? > >FOSS developers do things in their free time. They don't >mind if you ask >politely for features or file/post bug reports. You are >treading >dangerous ground though when as a non-contributor you >start making >complaints about development style. > >> Since I'm not a developer, how do I determine what to >>put onto the list of >> things that need to be done? A wee bit of a problem >>there. >> >> > >As a non-developer you may qualified to write howtos, >documentation, >make bug-reports, and collect traces showing how to fix >those bugs. What >you are not qualified to do is determine the best way a >FOSS project >should be organized or what is the most >effective/efficient way to get >useful features into a product. But that seems to be all >that I'm >hearing from you. > >But what it sounds even more like, is that you know >enough about >software to get by. If you knew C once, you could pick it >up again. But >it seems you would rather wallow in your helplessness, >since then you >don't actually have to do anything about the problems you >whine about. > >> But as I said, I'm out of practice. >> >> Just last week I was trying to tell somebody about a >>library function, and I >> had to actually go dig out my ref books just to see what >>header it's in and >> what the params are. >> > >Most programming these days is API treasure hunt. Do you >seriously think >anybody but an idiot savant really has all argument lists >and parameters >in his head? Learn to use grep. > >> After several years of no programming at all, I honest >>and truely seriously >> doubt you'd be happy with the quality of code that I'd >>be writing today. >> > >Probably not (that's why you need to give more respect to >the type of >work that Fabrice is interested in doing, which is hard >stuff the >average code monkey cannot do in a reasonable period of >time), but does >that mean you can't design an API, build a front end, >etc. Sometimes >just providing a working "seed" can spur another >developer to extend it, >clean it up, or provide their own implementation. > >> >> > Again, why? If things get unusable for a developer, >>she will fix it. If >> > things get unusable for a non-developer, he will try >>to find somebody who >> > can and wants to fix it (often you can help the 2nd >>part). >> >> Alright.... >> >> So these users complain. Which has been starting to >>happen. >> > >Not really. I haven't noticed much in the way of >complaints aside from >yours. Most of the things I've read from non-programmers >is "I can get >such and such to work, I've tried 6 ways, I read the FAQ, >can't get it >to work, what do I do?" This is 100% legitimate. How to >ask questions is >covered thoroughly by ESR, I suggest you learn to do it >and ask one. If >you want to file bug reports against a front end, you're >in luck as >there are front end projects out there (I believe there >were 2 at last >count... but have you even tried contacting the folks at >the project you >do know about?) > >> What are the chances those bugs will get fixed? >> Especially if nobody is >> bothering to even write them down? >> >> Pretty much zero. >> > >Folks are generating patches, they post them to the list, >and Fabrice >applies them as he sees fit. That's how it works. Do you >have any reason >to believe he's dropping legitimate patches that should >be applied? > > >> > >> > Why should the project have that goal? I am not Jesus >>nor RMS. >> >> If it doesn't, then okay. If the actual, official goal >>of the project is to >> do it only as a developer project and not a user >>project, then okay. >> > >Huh? I can use it. I don't have to tweak any code to use >it. Therefore >it is usable. Does that make it a "user project", I don't >know, since >I've never heard that term before... > >What is a "developer project?" did you make that up? Do >you know any >software projects that don't start out with sharp edges >outside of >medical and aerospace? QEMU is remarkably usable for a >young project of >its complexity. How much did you pay for VmWare? Look at >how much you >paid for QEMU, and consider that QEMU is probably at or >exceeding vmware >functionality in many ways, and is rapidly improving in >the important >areas. > >Since Fabrice said he would commit a decent GUI >implementation to source >control, you can either pray that someone does it, learn >to do it >yourself, pay someone to do it (i.e. start a company like >Codeweavers >and build a polished front end and focus on showstopper >bugs and >usability issues), etc. What won't work is whining to the >list. > >> But that needs to be stated, otherwise a whole lotta >>people are wasting >> their time watching this project. >> > >Or else what, the Free Software Regulatory Agency is >going to fine the >project? If you're asking for permission to go find >something else to do >while QEMU "evolves" past a "toy " "developer project" >(all your words) >then I give you permission. Go find something else to do. >Whining about >things you clearly don't grok is unproductive. In the >meantime you >apparently have a copy of VmWare to use. > >If one non programmer on this list is making good use of >QEMU, than you >are dead wrong on this about people "wasting their time." >QEMU has >gotten steadily more useful in the important ways, even >if not your pet >feature (GUI front end) > >> >> >> At the very least, you need a list of things that >>eventually need to be >> >> done. >> > >> > No. You don't. Nobody has a (complete) list of things >>that need to be done >> > for the Linux kernel. >> >> Not a 100% list, probably not, no. But they do (and >>did) have a rough list >> of problems and things to do and test. >> > >No you are wrong. Linux is chaos with some controls, i.e. >Linus and his >lieutenants. There is no roadmap a la a commercial >project. And if you >notice, even in the commercial world, without a contract, >roadmaps and >the substrate the bits travel is worth the substrate. > >-- John. > > > >_______________________________________________ >Qemu-devel mailing list >Qemu-devel@nongnu.org >http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/qemu-devel