From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com [170.10.133.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1E56AAB for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2024 22:58:14 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=170.10.133.124 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1706050696; cv=none; b=O6DocovS9EWhUfEJdf+sEfsflCm4WnDtI3Un7GB5KKPy6z0ByyG3msF9v6EYJ53uujpaQPeeH7OzrjkNJtTtCBcsSv7Oy55MQmRBFp5M8eASN6SIBAd7rhscEewfyv7HP8avoJSpjREv9q5n2k4gwyxv18VU9TM5W/zHEWSFxbc= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1706050696; c=relaxed/simple; bh=aeu0CBrnI66FBjVIijl0UIIQ/FNbTLbEiEDD43Xo/DI=; h=From:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Date:Message-ID; b=ARsNocOQPlPcIx0NPcB8/WxYI4S12vN3rjyP/D0dP5Ltal9/jz70deLZGPn8mmlSP+8yGHE9o/Qiqdi8VjdqyRmdgsaTIX8IZCkHszlO0Cm2e2RVG+tMbuJYMsdQMVusTtYmeA/O/3FErrAVB0baJS+/FuCh1WUo1BprQ/cgdzQ= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=redhat.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=redhat.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b=WMIOYXeq; arc=none smtp.client-ip=170.10.133.124 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=redhat.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="WMIOYXeq" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1706050693; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Jd2j+Hh/adVXKWtD56ozVK03qkc7HXVuVZfnpcpzJ70=; b=WMIOYXeq+kwY8XuIKQ3+MB6ndTu6TzubNPmH2GYfu1pWU49Wzr1RlJ+UpEnaPhtbN0A3BT tRTeeMC05n356fSlK0xq1CSlYHk6PHDbEedw0sWUwgCqEmK3NiSlTypK6cIADd8/FVHzx4 yXqjyDYsOl3/7f4Mikdpw1G/RC9C9/s= Received: from mimecast-mx02.redhat.com (mx-ext.redhat.com [66.187.233.73]) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP with STARTTLS (version=TLSv1.3, cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id us-mta-596-QTtnJHMXO_WT4W_8REmvaA-1; Tue, 23 Jan 2024 17:58:12 -0500 X-MC-Unique: QTtnJHMXO_WT4W_8REmvaA-1 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.rdu2.redhat.com [10.11.54.9]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mimecast-mx02.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFDB03C0FC83; Tue, 23 Jan 2024 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from warthog.procyon.org.uk (unknown [10.42.28.245]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB1D492BC6; Tue, 23 Jan 2024 22:58:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Red Hat UK Ltd. Registered Address: Red Hat UK Ltd, Amberley Place, 107-111 Peascod Street, Windsor, Berkshire, SI4 1TE, United Kingdom. Registered in England and Wales under Company Registration No. 3798903 From: David Howells In-Reply-To: References: To: Matthew Wilcox Cc: dhowells@redhat.com, Kent Overstreet , lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, Miguel Ojeda , Alice Ryhl , Wedson Almeida Filho , Alexander Viro , Christian Brauner , Kees Cook , Gary Guo , Dave Chinner , Ariel Miculas , Paul McKenney Subject: Re: [LSF/MM TOPIC] Rust Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <201189.1706050689.1@warthog.procyon.org.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 22:58:09 +0000 Message-ID: <201190.1706050689@warthog.procyon.org.uk> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 3.4.1 on 10.11.54.9 Matthew Wilcox wrote: > I really want this to happen. It's taken 50 years, but we finally have > a programming language that can replace C for writing kernels. I really don't want this to happen. Whilst I have sympathy with the idea that C can be replaced with something better - Rust isn't it. The syntax is awful. It's like they looked at perl and thought they could beat it at inventing weird and obfuscated bits of operator syntax. Can't they replace the syntax with something a lot more C-like[*]? But quite apart from that, mass-converting the kernel to Rust is pretty much inevitably going introduce a whole bunch of new bugs. David [*] That said, we do rather torture the C-preprocessor more than we should have to if the C language was more flexible. Some of that could be alleviated by moving to C++ and using some of the extra features available there. That would be an easier path than rusting the kernel.