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charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 22:54:59 +0900 Message-Id: Cc: "John Hubbard" , "Miguel Ojeda" , "Alex Gaynor" , "Boqun Feng" , "Gary Guo" , =?utf-8?q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Roy_Baron?= , "Benno Lossin" , "Andreas Hindborg" , "Alice Ryhl" , "Trevor Gross" , "Danilo Krummrich" , "David Airlie" , "Simona Vetter" , "Maarten Lankhorst" , "Maxime Ripard" , "Thomas Zimmermann" , "Alistair Popple" , "Joel Fernandes" , "Timur Tabi" , , , , Subject: Re: Implicit panics (was: [PATCH v2 2/8] gpu: nova-core: firmware: add support for common firmware header) From: "Alexandre Courbot" To: "Miguel Ojeda" , "Alexandre Courbot" X-Mailer: aerc 0.21.0-0-g5549850facc2 References: <20250826-nova_firmware-v2-0-93566252fe3a@nvidia.com> <20250826-nova_firmware-v2-2-93566252fe3a@nvidia.com> <9adb92d4-6063-4032-bf76-f98dcfe2c824@nvidia.com> In-Reply-To: X-ClientProxiedBy: TYCP286CA0130.JPNP286.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:400:2b6::12) To CH2PR12MB3990.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:610:28::18) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: CH2PR12MB3990:EE_|CY5PR12MB6647:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 35f4b5c4-5c9d-4406-876e-08ddf071a3de X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|366016|7416014|10070799003|376014; 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That's right, these panics are actually the last line of safety to prevent a program for doing something damaging. It is just that the consequences in a regular program are not as heavy as in the kernel. The only two options are either allowing user-space to crash the kernel through a module with a missing bound check, or letting it tamper with data it is not supposed to access. While the first option is terrible, the second one is unacceptable - so at the end of the day what we likely want is to keep the panic behavior and limit these occurrences as much as possible through information to the programmer. Build errors on such panic sites insertions, with the option to relax the rule locally if a justifying SAFETY comment is provided? And as you said, what do we do if a panic can be removed through a particular optimization - does it become mandatory to build the kernel? Is it applicable to all architectures and (in the future) all supported compilers? I suspect it will take more than Plumbers to get to the bottom of this. :) > >> Writing a uC topic proposal for Plumbers right now. :) > > I see it there, thanks! I can briefly mention the topic in Kangrejos, > since we will have Rust representation, including from the language > team. > > I don't think the discussion should focus much on "Do we need this?" > but rather more on "What exactly do we want? Would we be OK with a > local solution? Do we need/want a global one? Would we be OK with LSP? > Would we be OK with no panics after optimizations, e.g. a link time > check? Or do we want full support in the language for guaranteed > non-panicking functions? Do we need exceptional carve-outs on such > checking for particular language constructs?" and so on. And, of > course, "Who has time to write an RFC and implement an experiment > upstream if an approach is decided". > > Getting data on "in practice, how much of an issue it is on the Rust > side" would help too -- those with actual users running Rust kernel > code probably can tell us something. > > What I would personally expect to happen is that, over time, we > understand better what are the worst cases we must tackle. Thanks, these are great directions to explore. I see that some thinking has already been done on this, do we have a bug or tracking issue so I can catch up with the discussions that have already taken place?