[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[David Snowdon]

G'Day,

I've been looking at a few of the posts regarding debugging tools,  
and the standard answer on this list appears to be "Get a BDI2000".  
I'm presently looking at getting a debugger to use to bring up a new  
board, get U-Boot going, and eventually do a lot of OS work (a new OS  
that we're developing - see http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au -- sorry,  
shameless plug).

Some people that we are working with use the Lauterbach Trace32 tools  
extensively, and we've had some good experiences with them. I was  
wondering if anyone on this list had used both (particularly while  
developing U-Boot), and how the BDI-2000 stacks up against the  
Lauterbach equivalent. (Apart from being significantly cheaper).

Any insights much appreciated.

Many thanks,

David Snowdon,
Research Engineer,
National ICT Australia,
http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andrey Volkov]

On Monday, April 10, 2006, David Snowdon wrote:

> G'Day,

> I've been looking at a few of the posts regarding debugging tools,  
> and the standard answer on this list appears to be "Get a BDI2000".  
> I'm presently looking at getting a debugger to use to bring up a new  
> board, get U-Boot going, and eventually do a lot of OS work (a new OS
> that we're developing - see http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au -- sorry,  
> shameless plug).

> Some people that we are working with use the Lauterbach Trace32 tools
> extensively, and we've had some good experiences with them. I was  
> wondering if anyone on this list had used both (particularly while  
> developing U-Boot), and how the BDI-2000 stacks up against the  
> Lauterbach equivalent. (Apart from being significantly cheaper).

Pros:
     BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
     Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.
Cons:
     BDI support gnu toolchain natively (in GDB server mode),
     Lauterbach - not (sometime it parsing elf/dwarf correctly,
     sometime, usually in critical cases :), not).
     And you are know, hmm, strange Lauterbach price policy:
     price of BDI firmware for a new CPU target is approx. 1000 eur,
     for the Lauterbach - price of new device.

> Any insights much appreciated.

> Many thanks,

> David Snowdon,
> Research Engineer,
> National ICT Australia,
> http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au



-- 
Regards,
Andrey Volkov

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <427722615.20060410170041@varma-el.com> you wrote:
>
> Pros:

meaning: pro for Lauterbach, just to make it clear.

>      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.

This does not mean anything. I haven't seen a single case  where  the
network  speed  was  the limiting factor. Shuffeling the data through
the JTAG is usually much slower.

>      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.

What would you want to extend or scale?

> Cons:
>      BDI support gnu toolchain natively (in GDB server mode),

In other words: The  BDI2000  fits  seamlessly  into  a  Linux  based
development  environment.  You  can  use exact the same tools and and
user interface for low level stuff (boot loader,  OS  and  drivers  -
using the BDI) and for application code (using gdbserver).

>      Lauterbach - not (sometime it parsing elf/dwarf correctly,
>      sometime, usually in critical cases :), not).

Question: does the Lauterbach reliably handle issues like  relocating
the symbol table as needed f?r U-Boot?

>      And you are know, hmm, strange Lauterbach price policy:
>      price of BDI firmware for a new CPU target is approx. 1000 eur,
>      for the Lauterbach - price of new device.

Another pro for the BDI: they have  *excellent*  support.  I  know  a
couple  of vendors of hardware and tools etc. Some of them are really
good, but Abatron beats them all.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
How does a project get to be a year late?      ... One day at a time.

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andrey Volkov]

On Monday, April 10, 2006, Wolfgang Denk wrote:

> In message <427722615.20060410170041@varma-el.com> you wrote:
>>
>> Pros:

> meaning: pro for Lauterbach, just to make it clear.
Yes

>>      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
> This does not mean anything. I haven't seen a single case  where  the
> network  speed  was  the limiting factor. Shuffeling the data through
> the JTAG is usually much slower.
Not always. As ex.:  allowable MPC5200 JTAG's clock is ... 25 MHz,
clock of 10 Mbit eth is ... + tcp stack overhead. And now we run
memory dump command and measure.

>>      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.

> What would you want to extend or scale?
Lauterbach like Lego, constructing from modules: from dumb
LPT<->jtg upto monster-alike in-circuit emulator
(I didn't talk about how _much_ smb. will pay for it,
I talk about possibility).

>> Cons:
>>      BDI support gnu toolchain natively (in GDB server mode),

> In other words: The  BDI2000  fits  seamlessly  into  a  Linux  based
> development  environment.  You  can  use exact the same tools and and
> user interface for low level stuff (boot loader,  OS  and  drivers  -
> using the BDI) and for application code (using gdbserver).
Yes.

>>      Lauterbach - not (sometime it parsing elf/dwarf correctly,
>>      sometime, usually in critical cases :), not).

> Question: does the Lauterbach reliably handle issues like  relocating
> the symbol table as needed fur U-Boot?
I'm not sure, since I doesn't work with Lb approx. 3 years,
but probably it could.

>>      And you are know, hmm, strange Lauterbach price policy:
>>      price of BDI firmware for a new CPU target is approx. 1000 eur,
>>      for the Lauterbach - price of new device.

> Another pro for the BDI: they have  *excellent*  support.  I  know  a
> couple  of vendors of hardware and tools etc. Some of them are really
> good, but Abatron beats them all.

Don't asking them for a help, since my BDI work as predicted,
so it may be pros also :).

> Best regards,
> Wolfgang Denk

-- 
Regards,
Andrey Volkov

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Andrey,

in message <1618325846.20060410201725@varma-el.com> you wrote:
> 
> > This does not mean anything. I haven't seen a single case  where  the
> > network  speed  was  the limiting factor. Shuffeling the data through
> > the JTAG is usually much slower.
> Not always. As ex.:  allowable MPC5200 JTAG's clock is ... 25 MHz,
> clock of 10 Mbit eth is ... + tcp stack overhead. And now we run
> memory dump command and measure.

But the 25 MHz also includes a LOT of JTAG communication overhead.  I
think you won't get even close to a raw 10 Mbps data rate, but I have
to  admit  that  I  never  actually  measured  it yet. Did you really
measure this? For example,  what  difference  do  you  get  when  you
connect your Lauterbach to a 10 Mbps port vs. a 100 Mbps port?

[This is a serious question; I have never been able  to  run  such  a
test myself yet.]

> Don't asking them for a help, since my BDI work as predicted,
> so it may be pros also :).

I remember a case when somebody here on the list had the data pins of
his flash device swapped and Abatron came up with a special  firmware
that  allowed  flashing  the  devices  anyway. And just recently They
helped us to get support for a new processor (Intel Monahans) working
- without ever seeing such a chip or much of the documentation.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
I must follow the people.  Am I not their leader? - Benjamin Disraeli

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andrey Volkov]

On Monday, April 10, 2006, Wolfgang Denk wrote:

> Dear Andrey,

> in message <1618325846.20060410201725@varma-el.com> you wrote:
>> 
>> > This does not mean anything. I haven't seen a single case  where  the
>> > network  speed  was  the limiting factor. Shuffeling the data through
>> > the JTAG is usually much slower.
>> Not always. As ex.:  allowable MPC5200 JTAG's clock is ... 25 MHz,
>> clock of 10 Mbit eth is ... + tcp stack overhead. And now we run
>> memory dump command and measure.

> But the 25 MHz also includes a LOT of JTAG communication overhead.  I
> think you won't get even close to a raw 10 Mbps data rate, but I have
> to  admit  that  I  never  actually  measured  it yet. Did you really
> measure this? For example,  what  difference  do  you  get  when  you
> connect your Lauterbach to a 10 Mbps port vs. a 100 Mbps port?
> [This is a serious question; I have never been able  to  run  such  a
> test myself yet.]
Unfortunately, but I have not access to a Lauterbach anymore (as I say,
I work with it 3 years ago), so I couldn't run this test too :(.

snip..

-- 
Regards,
Andrey Volkov

[U-Boot-Users] Re: BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Wolfram Wadepohl]

Wolfgang Denk schrieb:

> Another pro for the BDI: they have  *excellent*  support.  I  know  a
> couple  of vendors of hardware and tools etc. Some of them are really
> good, but Abatron beats them all.
This is also true for Lauterbach. We are working with Lauterbach for nearly 
10 years have experienced always excellent support.
Implementing a new RTOS support: no problem.

If you only use a linux based development, Abatron may fit. If you use 
different development systems, like Windows and Linux, Lauterbach is far 
better.

--
Sch?ne Gr??e aus Reutlingen

Wolfram Wadepohl
Forschung & Entwicklung

E&K AUTOMATION
Indumat GmbH & Co. KG

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[llandre]

> Pros:
>      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
>      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.
1) Powerful scripting language
2) Very user friendly
3) Rich commands set that allows to debug hardware problems, too
4) Can "interpret" peripheral registers to provide human 
readable/changeable values
5) O.S. awarness for several o.s. and RTOSes
6) Modularity (trace module, logic analyzer module)


> Cons:
>      BDI support gnu toolchain natively (in GDB server mode),
>      Lauterbach - not (sometime it parsing elf/dwarf correctly,
>      sometime, usually in critical cases :), not).
>      And you are know, hmm, strange Lauterbach price policy:
>      price of BDI firmware for a new CPU target is approx. 1000 eur,
>      for the Lauterbach - price of new device.

1) So far no gdb support
2) USB version doesn't support Linux on host

-- 
llandre

DAVE Electronics System House - R&D Department
web:   http://www.dave-tech.it
email: r&d2 at dave-tech.it

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andrey Volkov]

On Monday, April 10, 2006, llandre wrote:

>> Pros:
>>      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
>>      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.
> 1) Powerful scripting language
> 2) Very user friendly
> 3) Rich commands set that allows to debug hardware problems, too
> 4) Can "interpret" peripheral registers to provide human
> readable/changeable values
> 5) O.S. awarness for several o.s. and RTOSes
1-5 common for a both (to a greater or lesser extent),
but Lb _demand_ that TRACE32 installed on host and
may communicate _only_ with TRACE32. And, if your bumped
with problems with TRACE32 (_host software_, not hardware)
at the middle of annual subscription, your _must_ prolonger
subscription (not for free of charge) since LB released fixed
TRACE32 when your current subscription will be closed.
We bumped with such situation when worked with Hitachi (Renesas)
SH7751 family. TRACE32 know _nothing_ about new revision (7751R),
and refuse to work at all. For a defeated of Lb,
I could say that I don't know what Abatron offer in this situation,
and this situation was 3 years ago.
Wolfgang?

> 6) Modularity (trace module, logic analyzer module)
I already point to it (scalable etc)

>> Cons:
>>      BDI support gnu toolchain natively (in GDB server mode),
>>      Lauterbach - not (sometime it parsing elf/dwarf correctly,
>>      sometime, usually in critical cases :), not).
>>      And you are know, hmm, strange Lauterbach price policy:
>>      price of BDI firmware for a new CPU target is approx. 1000 eur,
>>      for the Lauterbach - price of new device.

> 1) So far no gdb support
> 2) USB version doesn't support Linux on host
Since protocol _closed_ and patented (I think).

-- 
Regards,
Andrey Volkov

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <1317633204.20060410215844@varma-el.com> you wrote:
> 
> SH7751 family. TRACE32 know _nothing_ about new revision (7751R),
> and refuse to work at all. For a defeated of Lb,
> I could say that I don't know what Abatron offer in this situation,
> and this situation was 3 years ago.
> Wolfgang?

This probably depends on what was changed  between  versions,  but  I
guess the same szenario might happen with Abatron, too. But then, the
price for software updates + support is some 142 Euro per year, which
makes the decision easy enough.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
You don't have to worry about me. I might have been born yesterday...
but I stayed up all night.

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andrey Volkov]

Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> In message <1317633204.20060410215844@varma-el.com> you wrote:
>> SH7751 family. TRACE32 know _nothing_ about new revision (7751R),
>> and refuse to work at all. For a defeated of Lb,
>> I could say that I don't know what Abatron offer in this situation,
>> and this situation was 3 years ago.
>> Wolfgang?
> 
> This probably depends on what was changed  between  versions,  but  I
> guess the same szenario might happen with Abatron, too. But then, the
> price for software updates + support is some 142 Euro per year, which
> makes the decision easy enough.
> 
Thanks, you're really calm me, Abatron didn't put
such information under public domain.

--
Regards
Andrey

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andreas Schweigstill]

Hi all!

I have been using Lauterbach debuggers for several years at
different companies and finally bought my own one (Power
Debug USB for ARM7/9). I like them very much but unfortunately
there doesn't seem to be RDI or GDB stub support. At least on
MS Windows there is a DLL available to connect third-party
products to the Lauterbach environment.

llandre schrieb:
> 2) USB version doesn't support Linux on host

The USB version works very well on a Linux host, at least with
software release ~summer 2005! First I had some problems on
a Suse 9.3 Prof. system with the USB hotplug mechanism but this
could be solved by a proper chmod.

With best regards
Andreas Schweigstill

-- 
Dipl.-Phys. Andreas Schweigstill
Schweigstill IT | Embedded Systems
Schauenburgerstra?e 116, D-24118 Kiel, Germany
Phone: (+49) 431 5606-435, Fax: (+49) 431 5606-436
Mobile: (+49) 171 6921973, Web: http://www.schweigstill.de/

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[David Snowdon]

G'Day all,

Many thanks for all the discussion regarding BDI and Lauterbach. It  
sounds like the Lauterbach has the edge over the BDI in some ways,  
but whether its a 2x-the-cost edge is difficult to work out.

I thought I had the powers-that-be convinced on the Lauterbach until  
someone suggested the Wind-River and Greenhills tools (in front of  
management). I'm now back to the drawing board: comparing these tools  
via the information available on the 'net is difficult because they  
all claim to do the same things. Have any of you had positive or  
negative experiences with either of those two company's products?

Please ignore if I'm pushing the friendship too far... ;-).

Dave.

--
David Snowdon
Research Engineer
National ICT Australia (NICTA)
Phone: +61-2-8306-0566
Email: David.Snowdon at nicta.com.au
Web: http://www.nicta.com.au/ertos



On 11/04/2006, at 8:41 PM, Andreas Schweigstill wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> I have been using Lauterbach debuggers for several years at
> different companies and finally bought my own one (Power
> Debug USB for ARM7/9). I like them very much but unfortunately
> there doesn't seem to be RDI or GDB stub support. At least on
> MS Windows there is a DLL available to connect third-party
> products to the Lauterbach environment.
>
> llandre schrieb:
>> 2) USB version doesn't support Linux on host
>
> The USB version works very well on a Linux host, at least with
> software release ~summer 2005! First I had some problems on
> a Suse 9.3 Prof. system with the USB hotplug mechanism but this
> could be solved by a proper chmod.
>
> With best regards
> Andreas Schweigstill
>
> -- 
> Dipl.-Phys. Andreas Schweigstill
> Schweigstill IT | Embedded Systems
> Schauenburgerstra?e 116, D-24118 Kiel, Germany
> Phone: (+49) 431 5606-435, Fax: (+49) 431 5606-436
> Mobile: (+49) 171 6921973, Web: http://www.schweigstill.de/
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <D4267F77-3E56-4C19-84D9-7A491B07FD7C@nicta.com.au> you wrote:
> 
> I thought I had the powers-that-be convinced on the Lauterbach until  
> someone suggested the Wind-River and Greenhills tools (in front of  
> management). I'm now back to the drawing board: comparing these tools  
> via the information available on the 'net is difficult because they  
> all claim to do the same things. Have any of you had positive or  
> negative experiences with either of those two company's products?

This has been discussed  before  on  this  list.  Please  search  the
mailing  list  archive.  Short  summary: Trace32 and BDI200 play in a
somewhat different league.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
2000 pounds of chinese soup                               = 1 Won Ton

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[David Snowdon]

There's no reference to "greenhills" or "green hills" on this mailing  
list other than the below two posts. <shrug>.

Dave.

--
David Snowdon
Research Engineer
National ICT Australia (NICTA)
Phone: +61-2-8306-0566
Email: David.Snowdon at nicta.com.au
Web: http://www.nicta.com.au/ertos



On 12/04/2006, at 8:07 PM, Wolfgang Denk wrote:

> In message <D4267F77-3E56-4C19-84D9-7A491B07FD7C@nicta.com.au> you  
> wrote:
>>
>> I thought I had the powers-that-be convinced on the Lauterbach until
>> someone suggested the Wind-River and Greenhills tools (in front of
>> management). I'm now back to the drawing board: comparing these tools
>> via the information available on the 'net is difficult because they
>> all claim to do the same things. Have any of you had positive or
>> negative experiences with either of those two company's products?
>
> This has been discussed  before  on  this  list.  Please  search  the
> mailing  list  archive.  Short  summary: Trace32 and BDI200 play in a
> somewhat different league.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Wolfgang Denk
>
> -- 
> Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
> Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
> 2000 pounds of chinese soup                               = 1 Won Ton

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Marco Cavallini]

> There's no reference to "greenhills" or "green hills" on this mailing 
> list other than the below two posts. <shrug>.
> 
> Dave.
> 

Have you considered American Arium LC-500 ?
Cheap and performance like Lauterbach with many target processors.

/marco

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Marco Cavallini]

> Pros:
>      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
>      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.

Lauterbach is the best choiche for both Linux and WinCE targets.
Lauterbach have *excellent*  support too.

> Cons:
>      BDI support gnu toolchain natively (in GDB server mode),
>      Lauterbach - not (sometime it parsing elf/dwarf correctly,
>      sometime, usually in critical cases :), not).
>      And you are know, hmm, strange Lauterbach price policy:
>      price of BDI firmware for a new CPU target is approx. 1000 eur,
>      for the Lauterbach - price of new device.

--
Marco Cavallini
==============================================================
Koan s.a.s. - Software Engineering
Linux and WinCE solutions for Embedded and Real-Time Software
Klinux : the embedded distribution for industrial applications
   - Atmel AT91 ARM Third Party Consultant
   - Intel PCA Developer Network Member
   - Microsoft Windows Embedded Partner
Via Pascoli, 3  - 24121 Bergamo - ITALIA
http://www.koansoftware.com  -  http://www.klinux.org
==============================================================

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Frank]

--- Marco Cavallini <arm.linux@koansoftware.com> wrote:

> > Pros:
> >      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
> >      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.
> 
> Lauterbach is the best choiche for both Linux and WinCE
> targets.
> Lauterbach have *excellent*  support too.

I have introduced several of my clients to the BDI2000 and have
yet to have a single one regret the selection.
I have to admit though, if they lowered their price they would
probably get more customers.

I don't understand why the have to charge $1500+ for a
differnent cpu firmware update...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Andrey Volkov]

Frank wrote:
> 
> --- Marco Cavallini <arm.linux@koansoftware.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Pros:
>>>      BDI - 10Mbit eth, Lauterbach - 100 Mbit.
>>>      Lauterbach scalable and simply extendable, BDI - not.
>> Lauterbach is the best choiche for both Linux and WinCE
>> targets.
>> Lauterbach have *excellent*  support too.
Why best? Because best... :)

> 
> I have introduced several of my clients to the BDI2000 and have
> yet to have a single one regret the selection.
> I have to admit though, if they lowered their price they would
> probably get more customers.
> 
> I don't understand why the have to charge $1500+ for a
> differnent cpu firmware update...

Well, nice question, but now, show me modern CPU with onboard JTAG,
in public datasheets of which described FULL set of debug commands,
not only JTAG, but onchip debug subsystem too (we all know which cost
of SoC systems with onboard usb/eth/flash). Any questions after that?

Andrey

[U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach

[Woodruff, Richard]

At the U-boot level I don't know that their should be a huge
differentiator.  When you get to the OS level depending on the type of
work you are doing having a bit tighter integration with the Linux
kernel probably can be more help (context switch awareness and symbol
context switching being something very useful).

I generally use a Lauterbach when I can as I'm familiar with it and it
has been stable and highly useful faster than alternatives.  Also as it
matures many if not all of the internal registers get mapped into the
debugger. I find ETB/ETM to be very useful in debugging low level code.
Being able to step bi-directionally in C or ASM at an exception point
makes things much easier.

LB does have an OS aware layer which I use at times.  It can give you ps
in various formats and access the /proc structure.  More things then
I'll enumerate here.

Regards,
Richard W.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: u-boot-users-admin at lists.sourceforge.net [mailto:u-boot-users-
> admin at lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of David Snowdon
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:38 AM
> To: u-boot-users at lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: [U-Boot-Users] BDI vs. Lauterbach
> 
> G'Day,
> 
> I've been looking at a few of the posts regarding debugging tools,
> and the standard answer on this list appears to be "Get a BDI2000".
> I'm presently looking at getting a debugger to use to bring up a new
> board, get U-Boot going, and eventually do a lot of OS work (a new OS
> that we're developing - see http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au -- sorry,
> shameless plug).
> 
> Some people that we are working with use the Lauterbach Trace32 tools
> extensively, and we've had some good experiences with them. I was
> wondering if anyone on this list had used both (particularly while
> developing U-Boot), and how the BDI-2000 stacks up against the
> Lauterbach equivalent. (Apart from being significantly cheaper).
> 
> Any insights much appreciated.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> David Snowdon,
> Research Engineer,
> National ICT Australia,
> http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting
> language
> that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live
> webcast
> and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding
> territory!
>
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=121642
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