[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[ron_madrid at sbcglobal.net]

--- On Thu, 7/16/09, Ben Warren <biggerbadderben@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Ben Warren <biggerbadderben@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [U-Boot] Initial environment variables
> To: "Ron Madrid" <ron_madrid@sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: u-boot at lists.denx.de, "Mike Frysinger" <vapier@gentoo.org>
> Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 2:08 PM
> Ron Madrid wrote:
> > --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > 
> >   
> >> the board maintainer decides the default env
> values, not
> >> board users.  Ben's comment was probably on
> the assumption that you are in the
> >> latter category.
> >>     
> > 
> > Ah, that could be why.  Thankfully I am the
> maintainer for the board.  So I
> > am going to assume then that it would be OK for me to
> add these variable
> > settings to my board's include/configs file and submit
> a patch for it,
> > unless I here other objections.
> > 
> > Ron
> >   
> No, there should be no default net parameters, because
> you're making likely-bogus assumptions about the network
> that your board's going to go into.  Just because your
> LAN uses '192.168.0.x' doesn't mean anybody else's
> does.  It's even worse for MAC addresses - what if I
> buy two of your boards and plug them into the same
> switch?  If the addresses are identical all sorts of
> bad things can happen.  Not to mention that public MAC
> addresses are assigned (and paid for) and should be
> guaranteed to be unique.  And private (bit 41 set)
> addresses are used in many different ways.  One systems
> company that I worked at would program these dynamically
> based on which shelf/slot the board was plugged into. 
> It's best to fail loudly (a printf stating that MAC
> addresses haven't been programmed) than to silently cause
> network issues.  I could go on and on, but hopefully
> you get the point.

I do understand your points.  I am confused then as to why there are
around 100 different board configurations that include these variables.

Ron

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Ben Warren]

ron_madrid at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Ben Warren <biggerbadderben@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> From: Ben Warren <biggerbadderben@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [U-Boot] Initial environment variables
>> To: "Ron Madrid" <ron_madrid@sbcglobal.net>
>> Cc: u-boot at lists.denx.de, "Mike Frysinger" <vapier@gentoo.org>
>> Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 2:08 PM
>> Ron Madrid wrote:
>>     
>>> --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
>>>       
>> wrote:
>>     
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> the board maintainer decides the default env
>>>>         
>> values, not
>>     
>>>> board users.  Ben's comment was probably on
>>>>         
>> the assumption that you are in the
>>     
>>>> latter category.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> Ah, that could be why.  Thankfully I am the
>>>       
>> maintainer for the board.  So I
>>     
>>> am going to assume then that it would be OK for me to
>>>       
>> add these variable
>>     
>>> settings to my board's include/configs file and submit
>>>       
>> a patch for it,
>>     
>>> unless I here other objections.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>   
>>>       
>> No, there should be no default net parameters, because
>> you're making likely-bogus assumptions about the network
>> that your board's going to go into.  Just because your
>> LAN uses '192.168.0.x' doesn't mean anybody else's
>> does.  It's even worse for MAC addresses - what if I
>> buy two of your boards and plug them into the same
>> switch?  If the addresses are identical all sorts of
>> bad things can happen.  Not to mention that public MAC
>> addresses are assigned (and paid for) and should be
>> guaranteed to be unique.  And private (bit 41 set)
>> addresses are used in many different ways.  One systems
>> company that I worked at would program these dynamically
>> based on which shelf/slot the board was plugged into. 
>> It's best to fail loudly (a printf stating that MAC
>> addresses haven't been programmed) than to silently cause
>> network issues.  I could go on and on, but hopefully
>> you get the point.
>>     
>
> I do understand your points.  I am confused then as to why there are
> around 100 different board configurations that include these variables.
>
> Ron
>
>   
Sorry, before my time :)  They should be cleaned up.

regards,
Ben

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Ron Madrid]

--- On Thu, 7/16/09, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> the board maintainer decides the default env values, not
> board users.  Ben's 
> comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the
> latter category.

Ah, that could be why.  Thankfully I am the maintainer for the board.  So I
am going to assume then that it would be OK for me to add these variable
settings to my board's include/configs file and submit a patch for it,
unless I here other objections.

Ron

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Ben Warren]

Ron Madrid wrote:
> --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>   
>> the board maintainer decides the default env values, not
>> board users.  Ben's 
>> comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the
>> latter category.
>>     
>
> Ah, that could be why.  Thankfully I am the maintainer for the board.  So I
> am going to assume then that it would be OK for me to add these variable
> settings to my board's include/configs file and submit a patch for it,
> unless I here other objections.
>
> Ron
>   
No, there should be no default net parameters, because you're making 
likely-bogus assumptions about the network that your board's going to go 
into.  Just because your LAN uses '192.168.0.x' doesn't mean anybody 
else's does.  It's even worse for MAC addresses - what if I buy two of 
your boards and plug them into the same switch?  If the addresses are 
identical all sorts of bad things can happen.  Not to mention that 
public MAC addresses are assigned (and paid for) and should be 
guaranteed to be unique.  And private (bit 41 set) addresses are used in 
many different ways.  One systems company that I worked at would program 
these dynamically based on which shelf/slot the board was plugged into.  
It's best to fail loudly (a printf stating that MAC addresses haven't 
been programmed) than to silently cause network issues.  I could go on 
and on, but hopefully you get the point.

regards,
Ben

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thursday 16 July 2009 17:08:55 Ben Warren wrote:
> Ron Madrid wrote:
> > --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> the board maintainer decides the default env values, not
> >> board users.  Ben's
> >> comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the
> >> latter category.
> >
> > Ah, that could be why.  Thankfully I am the maintainer for the board.  So
> > I am going to assume then that it would be OK for me to add these
> > variable settings to my board's include/configs file and submit a patch
> > for it, unless I here other objections.
>
> No, there should be no default net parameters, because you're making
> likely-bogus assumptions about the network that your board's going to go
> into.  Just because your LAN uses '192.168.0.x' doesn't mean anybody
> else's does.

i dont see why this is a problem.  providing a consistent default network 
setup doesnt cause any problems whatsoever.  if you have a different network 
layout, then it's trivial to (1) change it or (2) type "dhcp".

this is the first ive heard against letting board maintainers dictate default 
network settings.  i do it for all ADI Blackfin boards and never once have i 
heard a complaint from people who use them.

> It's even worse for MAC addresses - what if I buy two of
> your boards and plug them into the same switch?  If the addresses are
> identical all sorts of bad things can happen.  Not to mention that
> public MAC addresses are assigned (and paid for) and should be
> guaranteed to be unique.  And private (bit 41 set) addresses are used in
> many different ways.  One systems company that I worked at would program
> these dynamically based on which shelf/slot the board was plugged into.
> It's best to fail loudly (a printf stating that MAC addresses haven't
> been programmed) than to silently cause network issues.

MAC addresses are a completely different issue than IP settings.  i agree that 
there should never be a default environment value in any board in the tree.  a 
quick grep of the tree indicates that people have been very bad in this area 
(and i see that i merged two such Blackfin boards).  i'll send patches for the 
two boards i watch over.
-mike
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[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Ron Madrid,

In message <401734.38482.qm@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> you wrote:
> 
> > the board maintainer decides the default env values, not
> > board users.  Ben's 
> > comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the
> > latter category.
> 
> Ah, that could be why.  Thankfully I am the maintainer for the board.  So I
> am going to assume then that it would be OK for me to add these variable
> settings to my board's include/configs file and submit a patch for it,
> unless I here other objections.

We do not accept any "default network configurations"  in  the  board
configuration.  It  makes  no  sense when all boards come up with the
very same network setting - it only causes problems and frustration.

[Don't tell me about "useful" use cases - all thse can be done in
different ways, easier.]

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,     MD: Wolfgang Denk & Detlev Zundel
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
It's all Klatchian to me.
        - Terry Pratchett & Stephen Briggs, _The Discworld Companion_

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Ron Madrid]

> Ron Madrid wrote:
> > When I submitted patches for my new board SIMPC8313 I
> recall being told that
> > I had inappropriately initialized some of my
> environment variables.  Most
> > specifically I am interested in having default
> serverip, ipaddr, and ethaddr
> > environment variables.  Is this most
> appropriately done with a specific
> > #define (such as #define CONFIG_SERVERIP) or within
> #define
> > CONFIG_EXTRA_ENV_SETTINGS?
> >
> >   
> You can set CONFIGs for all of these things in your own
> private build 
> and they'll work, but they're inappropriate for main-line
> U-boot.  I 
> hope the reasoning is obvious.

I'm do not understand why and I see in several include/configs/*.h files that these environment variable are being set as default.  I'm guessing that there's something that I'm missing.

Ron

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thursday 16 July 2009 16:46:36 Ron Madrid wrote:
> > Ron Madrid wrote:
> > > When I submitted patches for my new board SIMPC8313 I
> > > recall being told that I had inappropriately initialized some of my
> > > environment variables.  Most specifically I am interested in having
> > > default serverip, ipaddr, and ethaddr environment variables.  Is this
> > > most appropriately done with a specific
> > > #define (such as #define CONFIG_SERVERIP) or within #define
> > > CONFIG_EXTRA_ENV_SETTINGS?
> >
> > You can set CONFIGs for all of these things in your own
> > private build and they'll work, but they're inappropriate for main-line
> > U-boot.  I hope the reasoning is obvious.
>
> I'm do not understand why and I see in several include/configs/*.h files
> that these environment variable are being set as default.  I'm guessing
> that there's something that I'm missing.

the board maintainer decides the default env values, not board users.  Ben's 
comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the latter category.
-mike
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[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Mike Frysinger,

In message <200907161656.44300.vapier@gentoo.org> you wrote:
>
> > I'm do not understand why and I see in several include/configs/*.h files
> > that these environment variable are being set as default.  I'm guessing
> > that there's something that I'm missing.
>
> the board maintainer decides the default env values, not board users.  Ben's 
> comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the latter category.

That's only the first stage.

After that, the custodian decides what is acceptable for mainline, and
after that the project mainainer - ummm, that's me.

And we do not accept any "default network configurations" in mainline.

I'm really fed up by zillions of devices all coming up with the very
same MAC address just because the board vendor (1) has no clue and (2)
is too stingy to buy a block of MAC addresses.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,     MD: Wolfgang Denk & Detlev Zundel
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
I know engineers. They love to change things.             - Dr. McCoy

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thursday 16 July 2009 18:21:57 Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > I'm do not understand why and I see in several include/configs/*.h
> > > files that these environment variable are being set as default.  I'm
> > > guessing that there's something that I'm missing.
> >
> > the board maintainer decides the default env values, not board users. 
> > Ben's comment was probably on the assumption that you are in the latter
> > category.
>
> That's only the first stage.
>
> After that, the custodian decides what is acceptable for mainline, and
> after that the project mainainer - ummm, that's me.
>
> And we do not accept any "default network configurations" in mainline.
>
> I'm really fed up by zillions of devices all coming up with the very
> same MAC address just because the board vendor (1) has no clue and (2)
> is too stingy to buy a block of MAC addresses.

we arent talking mac addresses here which i agree -- any default/hardcoding 
there is wrong
-mike
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[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Ron Madrid]

When I submitted patches for my new board SIMPC8313 I recall being told that
I had inappropriately initialized some of my environment variables.  Most
specifically I am interested in having default serverip, ipaddr, and ethaddr
environment variables.  Is this most appropriately done with a specific
#define (such as #define CONFIG_SERVERIP) or within #define
CONFIG_EXTRA_ENV_SETTINGS?

Thanks for the help.

Ron

[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thursday 16 July 2009 14:57:10 Ron Madrid wrote:
> When I submitted patches for my new board SIMPC8313 I recall being told
> that I had inappropriately initialized some of my environment variables. 
> Most specifically I am interested in having default serverip, ipaddr, and
> ethaddr environment variables.  Is this most appropriately done with a
> specific #define (such as #define CONFIG_SERVERIP) or within #define
> CONFIG_EXTRA_ENV_SETTINGS?

not CONFIG_EXTRA_ENV_SETTINGS

look at common/env_common.c to see what defines are available to you
-mike
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[U-Boot] Initial environment variables

[Ben Warren]

Ron,

Ron Madrid wrote:
> When I submitted patches for my new board SIMPC8313 I recall being told that
> I had inappropriately initialized some of my environment variables.  Most
> specifically I am interested in having default serverip, ipaddr, and ethaddr
> environment variables.  Is this most appropriately done with a specific
> #define (such as #define CONFIG_SERVERIP) or within #define
> CONFIG_EXTRA_ENV_SETTINGS?
>
>   
You can set CONFIGs for all of these things in your own private build 
and they'll work, but they're inappropriate for main-line U-boot.  I 
hope the reasoning is obvious.
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Ron
> ________
regards,
Ben