Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

[Tom Rini]

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Hey all,

While I had hoped that the quiet of the last week or so had meant that
things would perhaps return to how they had been before, Simon's large
patch series and then comments on the TPM+bloblist patch have shown
otherwise.

At this point, I do not know how best to handle Simon's behavior,
without soliciting feedback in public first. At best he's created a
soft-fork of the project with his "sjg/master" branch. I've asked him
repeatedly to explain how he thinks this is all going to work out, in
public. I've had private conversations with him, but I want him to
explain in public. Or, he can post the messages if he likes.

And I am in the process of getting outside help that would in turn be
able to help the project move beyond the BDFL model we've always used.
Because at the end of the day, if most of the active developers would
prefer the direction Simon wants to take everything in, that's something
I can accept. But what's going on now is towards the worst end of
possible outcomes I think for the project itself. And by that I mean,
one prominent contributor steam-rolling over others and doing as the
please and implicitly acting as an authoritative voice for the project.

-- 
Tom

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Re: Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

[Ilias Apalodimas]

Hi Tom,

On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 10:13:13AM -0600, Tom Rini wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> While I had hoped that the quiet of the last week or so had meant that
> things would perhaps return to how they had been before, Simon's large
> patch series and then comments on the TPM+bloblist patch have shown
> otherwise.
>
> At this point, I do not know how best to handle Simon's behavior,
> without soliciting feedback in public first. At best he's created a
> soft-fork of the project with his "sjg/master" branch. I've asked him
> repeatedly to explain how he thinks this is all going to work out, in
> public. I've had private conversations with him, but I want him to

Everyone is entitled to create a fork. But as noted in another mail, he
can't use the public mailing lists asking feedback for his forked patches,
nor can he use the public infra (incl patchwork) to test and maintain his
changes.

> explain in public. Or, he can post the messages if he likes.
>
> And I am in the process of getting outside help that would in turn be
> able to help the project move beyond the BDFL model we've always used.
> Because at the end of the day, if most of the active developers would
> prefer the direction Simon wants to take everything in, that's something
> I can accept.

+1 here. As long as patches get reviewed properly we should follow what the
majority thinks is the proper technical direction.

> But what's going on now is towards the worst end of
> possible outcomes I think for the project itself. And by that I mean,
> one prominent contributor steam-rolling over others and doing as the
> please and implicitly acting as an authoritative voice for the project.

I personally don't want to pay attention to out of tree patches.
Simon randomly responds to emails 'applied to sjg1/master' or something
along those lines, which further complicates things as people might think
their code got merged.

I think we should wait a few more days and give Simon a chance to respond
and perhaps explain what drove him to create his fork.

Regards
/Ilias
>
> --
> Tom

Re: Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

[Michael Nazzareno Trimarchi]

Hi

On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 2:54 PM Ilias Apalodimas <ilias.apalodimas@linaro.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 10:13:13AM -0600, Tom Rini wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > While I had hoped that the quiet of the last week or so had meant that
> > things would perhaps return to how they had been before, Simon's large
> > patch series and then comments on the TPM+bloblist patch have shown
> > otherwise.
> >
> > At this point, I do not know how best to handle Simon's behavior,
> > without soliciting feedback in public first. At best he's created a
> > soft-fork of the project with his "sjg/master" branch. I've asked him
> > repeatedly to explain how he thinks this is all going to work out, in
> > public. I've had private conversations with him, but I want him to
>

I have some private fork of the project and have some project that
implements
some features that are still not in the mainline. I think that forking
u-boot in general
is not a good idea. Will be nice to have more developers and maintainers
workshop
where we can discuss problems and direction of the project. Let's say some
place where
we can reach each other and talk to each other. I found out that sometimes
discussion on video calls
moves things a bit faster.

> Everyone is entitled to create a fork. But as noted in another mail, he
> can't use the public mailing lists asking feedback for his forked patches,
> nor can he use the public infra (incl patchwork) to test and maintain his
> changes.
>
> > explain in public. Or, he can post the messages if he likes.
> >
> > And I am in the process of getting outside help that would in turn be
> > able to help the project move beyond the BDFL model we've always used.
> > Because at the end of the day, if most of the active developers would
> > prefer the direction Simon wants to take everything in, that's something
> > I can accept.
>

Will be nice to know the exact thread or discussion

> +1 here. As long as patches get reviewed properly we should follow what
the
> majority thinks is the proper technical direction.
>
> > But what's going on now is towards the worst end of
> > possible outcomes I think for the project itself. And by that I mean,
> > one prominent contributor steam-rolling over others and doing as the
> > please and implicitly acting as an authoritative voice for the project.
>
> I personally don't want to pay attention to out of tree patches.
> Simon randomly responds to emails 'applied to sjg1/master' or something
> along those lines, which further complicates things as people might think
> their code got merged.
>

Me too. I don't have that time and for the moment how the project is
progressive is fine.

Michael

> I think we should wait a few more days and give Simon a chance to respond
> and perhaps explain what drove him to create his fork.
>
> Regards
> /Ilias
> >
> > --
> > Tom
>
>


--
Michael Nazzareno Trimarchi
Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer
M. +39 347 913 2170
michael@amarulasolutions.com
__________________________________

Amarula Solutions BV
Joop Geesinkweg 125, 1114 AB, Amsterdam, NL
T. +31 (0)85 111 9172
info@amarulasolutions.com
www.amarulasolutions.com

Re: Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

[Alex Kiernan]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:51 PM Michael Nazzareno Trimarchi
<michael@amarulasolutions.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 2:54 PM Ilias Apalodimas <ilias.apalodimas@linaro.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 10:13:13AM -0600, Tom Rini wrote:
> > > Hey all,
> > >
> > > While I had hoped that the quiet of the last week or so had meant that
> > > things would perhaps return to how they had been before, Simon's large
> > > patch series and then comments on the TPM+bloblist patch have shown
> > > otherwise.
> > >
> > > At this point, I do not know how best to handle Simon's behavior,
> > > without soliciting feedback in public first. At best he's created a
> > > soft-fork of the project with his "sjg/master" branch. I've asked him
> > > repeatedly to explain how he thinks this is all going to work out, in
> > > public. I've had private conversations with him, but I want him to
> >
>
> I have some private fork of the project and have some project that
> implements
> some features that are still not in the mainline. I think that forking
> u-boot in general
> is not a good idea.

This (with honourable exceptions) is the SoC vendor model - in my
current world I'm stuck on 2015 U-Boot for goodness sake... forking it
is a terrible idea.

> > > But what's going on now is towards the worst end of
> > > possible outcomes I think for the project itself. And by that I mean,
> > > one prominent contributor steam-rolling over others and doing as the
> > > please and implicitly acting as an authoritative voice for the project.
> >
> > I personally don't want to pay attention to out of tree patches.
> > Simon randomly responds to emails 'applied to sjg1/master' or something
> > along those lines, which further complicates things as people might think
> > their code got merged.
> >
>
> Me too. I don't have that time and for the moment how the project is
> progressive is fine.
>

Sitting on the sidelines mostly these days, when I dip in, then
realising that I spent time reading a thread which isn't on code which
is heading towards the mainline, is at best annoying and frankly a
waste of time.

-- 
Alex Kiernan

Re: Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

[Quentin Schulz]

Hi Tom,

On 1/2/25 5:13 PM, Tom Rini wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> While I had hoped that the quiet of the last week or so had meant that
> things would perhaps return to how they had been before, Simon's large
> patch series and then comments on the TPM+bloblist patch have shown
> otherwise.
> 

I would appreciate some context and possibly links to the problematic 
comments so people who are not in the know can provide their point of 
view. A factual, as objective as possible, summary of the situation and 
maybe afterwards your complaints about it could help too. Because this 
is lacking, I'm not sure much more feedback will be shared?

> At this point, I do not know how best to handle Simon's behavior,
> without soliciting feedback in public first. At best he's created a
> soft-fork of the project with his "sjg/master" branch. I've asked him
> repeatedly to explain how he thinks this is all going to work out, in
> public. I've had private conversations with him, but I want him to
> explain in public. Or, he can post the messages if he likes.
> 
> And I am in the process of getting outside help that would in turn be
> able to help the project move beyond the BDFL model we've always used.
> Because at the end of the day, if most of the active developers would
> prefer the direction Simon wants to take everything in, that's something
> I can accept. But what's going on now is towards the worst end of
> possible outcomes I think for the project itself. And by that I mean,
> one prominent contributor steam-rolling over others and doing as the
> please and implicitly acting as an authoritative voice for the project.
> 

It's not clear what "Simon's behavior" means here so it's difficult for 
me to say what I would prefer. It's also not clear what you're asking or 
suggesting.

Is there a specific reason to keeping it vague maybe?

What I've gathered skimming through the ML the last few weeks seems to 
be about the following:
- Simon saying he merged patches into his sjg/master branch but it 
contains (?) rejected patches or is not sending pull request against 
master or next,
- Simon sending patches based off this sjg/master branch, specifically 
without notifying other reviewers/maintainers,
- Simon sending too many too big patch series too fast,

Can you please clarify what you're bothered about and on what you're 
asking our opinion/feedback?

Cheers,
Quentin

Re: Simon Glass's future with Das U-Boot project?

[Tom Rini]

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On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 10:13:13AM -0600, Tom Rini wrote:

> Hey all,
> 
> While I had hoped that the quiet of the last week or so had meant that
> things would perhaps return to how they had been before, Simon's large
> patch series and then comments on the TPM+bloblist patch have shown
> otherwise.
> 
> At this point, I do not know how best to handle Simon's behavior,
> without soliciting feedback in public first. At best he's created a
> soft-fork of the project with his "sjg/master" branch. I've asked him
> repeatedly to explain how he thinks this is all going to work out, in
> public. I've had private conversations with him, but I want him to
> explain in public. Or, he can post the messages if he likes.
> 
> And I am in the process of getting outside help that would in turn be
> able to help the project move beyond the BDFL model we've always used.
> Because at the end of the day, if most of the active developers would
> prefer the direction Simon wants to take everything in, that's something
> I can accept. But what's going on now is towards the worst end of
> possible outcomes I think for the project itself. And by that I mean,
> one prominent contributor steam-rolling over others and doing as the
> please and implicitly acting as an authoritative voice for the project.

It's been not quite two weeks. On the positive side, Simon and I are
continuing to talk in private and things are moving in what I hope (and I
believe Simon hopes) to be a good direction for both individuals and the
project as a whole. And to answer some of the "wait, what is this
about?" in order to not misconstrue things I would point anyone at the
list archives of the last few months for how things have finally reached
this point, but it's been a much longer running problem.

-- 
Tom

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