[U-Boot] How to download image to U-Boot

[U-Boot] How to download image to U-Boot

[Grant Edwards]

I've read through the U-Boot manual and FAQ, but I still
haven't figured out how one downloads via the network an image
to a board running U-Boot.  Previous projects have used
RedBoot, and it provided a couple different mechanisms: 

 1) Telnet to the board and download an image (binary or
    S-Record) using the x/y-modem protocol over the telnet
    connection.

 2) Download a binary image directly using a TCP connection
    to a dedicated port.

Both of these methods would work through firewalls and WAN
connections (even through satellite links), and could easily be
automated in an "updater" utility that is then provided to
customers to update images in flash.

I can't seem to find out how one accomplishes the same task
using U-Boot.  The only method I can figure out involve setting
up a TFTP server (which is not going to be acceptible to
customers), and then typing a series of commands while plugging
into a serial console (also not going to be acceptible to
customers).  The requirement is to update the image using just
the network and a user-space application that doesn't require
any system privledges to run.

I found mention of netconsole, but I don't see how it's useful
since you have to know a-priori the address of the machine from
which you want to use it.  It would seem that you have to force
the customer to change the IP address of their machine (not
acceptible).

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! Thank god!! ... It's
                                  at               HENNY YOUNGMAN!!
                               visi.com            

[U-Boot] How to download image to U-Boot

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Grant Edwards,

In message <hdurn4$2bt$1@ger.gmane.org> you wrote:
> I've read through the U-Boot manual and FAQ, but I still
> haven't figured out how one downloads via the network an image
> to a board running U-Boot.  Previous projects have used
> RedBoot, and it provided a couple different mechanisms: 

There are many different ways in U-Boot - over serial line, over
Ethernet using TFTP or NFS, from a number of different storage devices
like MMC/SDCard, USB Mass Storage Devices, harddisks, ...

> Both of these methods would work through firewalls and WAN
> connections (even through satellite links), and could easily be
> automated in an "updater" utility that is then provided to
> customers to update images in flash.

You don't have much of authentication in such  an  envrionment  which
makes  it unacceptable even for mimimum security envrionments. If you
need such a szenario, then boot into a (minimal)  Linux  kernel,  and
run the update in a real OS.

> I can't seem to find out how one accomplishes the same task
> using U-Boot.  The only method I can figure out involve setting
> up a TFTP server (which is not going to be acceptible to
> customers), and then typing a series of commands while plugging

Why would this not be acceptable?

Alternatively, you can use NFS (but I guess you will argument that
setting up a NFS server is also not acceptable).

> into a serial console (also not going to be acceptible to
> customers).  The requirement is to update the image using just

Ah, also not acceptable.

Of course you can kill any system by  just  excluding  all  available
features  as  "not acceptable" - without giuving reasons for this, of
course. Note that this works fine for many, many others, so you might
want to ask yourself if your requirements are "acceptable".

> I found mention of netconsole, but I don't see how it's useful
> since you have to know a-priori the address of the machine from
> which you want to use it.  It would seem that you have to force

You don't have to.  You can use broadcasts.

> the customer to change the IP address of their machine (not
> acceptible).

Why am I not surprised that this is not acceptable, either?


Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,     MD: Wolfgang Denk & Detlev Zundel
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
f u cn rd ths, itn tyg h myxbl cd.

[U-Boot] How to download image to U-Boot

[Grant Edwards]

On 2009-11-17, Wolfgang Denk <wd@denx.de> wrote:
> In message <hdurn4$2bt$1@ger.gmane.org> you wrote:

>> I've read through the U-Boot manual and FAQ, but I still
>> haven't figured out how one downloads via the network an image
>> to a board running U-Boot.  Previous projects have used
>> RedBoot, and it provided a couple different mechanisms: 
>
> There are many different ways in U-Boot - over serial line,
> over Ethernet using TFTP or NFS, from a number of different
> storage devices like MMC/SDCard, USB Mass Storage Devices,
> harddisks, ...
>
>> Both of these methods would work through firewalls and WAN
>> connections (even through satellite links), and could easily be
>> automated in an "updater" utility that is then provided to
>> customers to update images in flash.
>
> You don't have much of authentication in such an envrionment

True.

> which makes it unacceptable even for mimimum security
> envrionments.

False.

Almost all of our customers find it acceptible and it has never
proven to be a problem in the 10 years we've been shipping
product.  For the few customers who do use the products on an
usecured network, the update mechanisms can be secured.

> If you need such a szenario, then boot into a
> (minimal) Linux kernel, and run the update in a real OS.

So the answer is U-Boot doesn't support the sort of update
mechanism I'm talking about.  That's fine.  There's no reason
to get rude and insulting about it.

>> I can't seem to find out how one accomplishes the same task
>> using U-Boot.  The only method I can figure out involve setting
>> up a TFTP server (which is not going to be acceptible to
>> customers), and then typing a series of commands while plugging
>
> Why would this not be acceptable?

We can't require that the box is physically accessible or that
the customer have a serial port.

> Alternatively, you can use NFS (but I guess you will argument
> that setting up a NFS server is also not acceptable).

I'm afraid it isn't.

>> into a serial console (also not going to be acceptible to
>> customers).  The requirement is to update the image using just
>
> Ah, also not acceptable.

I'm sorry, what isn't acceptible?

> Of course you can kill any system by just excluding all
> available features as "not acceptable" - without giuving
> reasons for this, of course. Note that this works fine for
> many, many others, so you might want to ask yourself if your
> requirements are "acceptable".

My opinions have nothing to do with it, and they're not my
requirements.  I'm perfectly happy setting up a TFTP server and
using a serial console.  Our customers, however, are neither
willing or able to up special servers in order to update the
firmware in our products.

>> I found mention of netconsole, but I don't see how it's useful
>> since you have to know a-priori the address of the machine
>> from which you want to use it.  It would seem that you have to
>> force
>
> You don't have to.  You can use broadcasts.

That's not going to work through firewalls.

>> the customer to change the IP address of their machine (not
>> acceptible).
>
> Why am I not surprised that this is not acceptable, either?

Because it's not something our customers are willing to do.

I take it that your position is that everying that U-Boot
doesn't support is worthless and stupid as are people who
desire or currently use such features.

Thanks.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! Am I SHOPLIFTING?
                                  at               
                               visi.com            

[U-Boot] How to download image to U-Boot

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Grant Edwards,

In message <hdv4ns$4lk$1@ger.gmane.org> you wrote:
>
> I take it that your position is that everying that U-Boot
> doesn't support is worthless and stupid as are people who
> desire or currently use such features.

Now check who is rude and insulting.

U-Boot is a boot loader, and as such it provides a certain  level  of
functionality.  Its  features  are  therefore  limited (but still far
better than available in most other boot loaders). But  we  definitly
don't  want  to  grow it into an operating system. There are certaing
things like full network stack with  authentication,  encryption  and
who  knows  what  else that simply have no place in a boot loader. If
you need something like that (and your requirements say so), then use
the appropriate tool, i. e. use an OS.


Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,     MD: Wolfgang Denk & Detlev Zundel
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd at denx.de
"Probably the best operating system in the world  is  the  [operating
system] made for the PDP-11 by Bell Laboratories."
                                           - Ted Nelson, October 1977