Re: [virtio-dev] Re: [PATCH 0/5] virtio: introduce SUSPEND bit and vq state

["Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 08:16:13PM +0800, Zhu, Lingshan wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/2023 8:05 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 07:22:32PM +0800, Zhu, Lingshan wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 9/20/2023 6:36 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 02:06:13PM +0800, Zhu, Lingshan wrote:
> > > > > On 9/19/2023 2:49 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 06:41:55PM +0000, Parav Pandit wrote:
> > > > > > > > Please refer to the code for setting FEATURES_OK.
> > > > > > > It wont work when one needs to suspend the device.
> > > > > > > There is no point of doing such work over registers as fundamental framework is over the AQ.
> > > > > > Well not really. It's over admin commands. When these were built the
> > > > > > intent always was that it's possible to use admin commands through
> > > > > > another interface, other than admin queue. Is there a problem
> > > > > > implementing admin commands over a memory BAR? For example, I can see
> > > > > > an "admin command" capability pointing at a BAR where
> > > > > > commands are supplied, and using a new group type referring to
> > > > > > device itself.
> > > > > I am not sure, if a bar cap would be implemented as a proxy for the admin vq
> > > > > based live migration.
> > > > Not a proxy for a vq in that there's no vq then.
> > > I think if the driver sends admin commands through a VF's bar, then
> > > VF forwards the admin commands to the PF, it acts like a proxy,
> > > or an agent. Anyway it takes admin commands.
> > Why send them to the PF? They are controlling the VF anyway.
> I think its still too heavy compared to this series proposal

it will be on you to prove all the complexity is unnecessary though.

> > 
> > > So the problems we have discussed still exist.
> > > > > then the problems of admin vq LM that we have
> > > > > discussed
> > > > > still exist.
> > > > I freely admit the finer points of this extended flamewar have been lost
> > > > on me, and I wager I'm not the only one. I thought you wanted to migrate
> > > > the device just by accessing the device itself (e.g. the VF) without
> > > > accessing other devices (e.g. the PF), while Parav wants it in a
> > > > separate device so the whole of the device itself can passed through to
> > > > guest. Isn't this, fundamentally, the issue?
> > > we are implementing basic facilities for live migration.
> > > 
> > > We have pointed out lots of issues, there are many discussions with
> > > Jason and Parav about the problems in migration by admin vq, for example:
> > > security, QOS and nested.
> > /me shrugs
> > Thanks for the summary I guess. Same applies to almost any proposal.
> > What would help make progress is an explanation why this has grown into
> > a megathread.  Do you understand Parav's thoughts well enough to
> > summarize them?
> as far as I see, I don't see admin vq as must for live migration.
> and it does not serve nested for sure.
> > 
> > > > > the bar is only a proxy, doesn't fix anything. and even larger
> > > > > side channel attacking surface: vf-->pf-->vf
> > > > In this model there's no pf. BAR belongs to vf itself
> > > > and you submit commands for the VF through its BAR.
> > > > Just separate from the pci config space.
> > > If using the bar to process admin commands,
> > > is this solution too heavy compared to my proposal in this series?
> > somewhat - because it's more comprehensive - you can actually
> > migrate a device using it.
> > this series just begins to define how to poke at some
> > of the vq state - it's a subset of the necessary functionality.
> > 
> > And it will give you a bunch of side benefits, such as
> > support for legacy compat commands that were merged.
> next version will include in-flight descriptors and dirty page tracking.

what we don't need is another version of this megathread.
which it sounds like you intend to restart?
nor do I cherish maintaining two independent mechanisms for doing
the same thing in the spec.
all of the above is already in parav's patchset so you guys should find
a way to work together rather than compete?

> I failed to process the comments for legacy.
> legacy devices are defined by code than the spec, if wants to migrate legacy
> devices, maybe working on QEMU first

that is not much in the way of addressing, just saying go pound sand.
the functionality has already been accepted by the TC though I don't
know what you are trying to say here. that we should drop it from spec?

> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > The whole attacking surface discussion is also puzzling.  We either are
> > > > or are not discussing confidential computing/TDI.  I couldn't figure
> > > > it out. This needs a separate thread I think.
> > > I agree confidential computing is out of spec. Parva mentioned TDISP and
> > > even
> > > in TDISP spec, it explicitly defined some attacking model, and PF is an
> > > example.
> > > 
> > > It is out of spec anyway.
> > OK so we are ignoring TDISP applications for now? Everyone agrees on
> > that?
> sure
> > 


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