From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from ws5-mx01.kavi.com (ws5-mx01.kavi.com [34.193.7.191]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 621C7CD6E54 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:20:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis.ws5.connectedcommunity.org [10.110.1.242]) by ws5-mx01.kavi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB628613D5 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:20:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis-open.org [10.110.1.242]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD57986837 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:20:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from host09.ws5.connectedcommunity.org (host09.ws5.connectedcommunity.org [10.110.1.97]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with QMQP id 5F778986602; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:20:33 +0000 (UTC) Mailing-List: contact virtio-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org; run by ezmlm List-ID: Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis-open.org [10.110.1.242]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA43D986603 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:20:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at kavi.com X-MC-Unique: Dbd39vIKMcCRlh76nrvjqQ-1 X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1697019607; x=1697624407; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=OPT9FlzZUEgyQm6Frl3/5cncQQC9Llxz+t1CAEWZmfA=; b=MGhyozD5CgZwefwigO/BXEVQXFt/HcRBPrhJLJ/e4mC7nlS+IqUf8F5/+Nsnto+RpA c7VXWd/Difb9U/qp7GbE/ny7g5FvDFaJFPZp8JTZlYibgHJMEU5cy8vdYbicSH2/c//J et54LAYc3Rh5NUxO+7uwYgHbe8GUXzb8WBtrR0YO5rmNMSmBYnV05qT9esrA09YT8feh Fp5aOh8W6Vodki2HRIcQgc3MDa7cbk7IvuFjAk2WqhPluAk5+K11+rvg6l/xKB6tO1bs xGyH5c+jx5ppHp8AFt2pJwRA0wVVy/pgM/8eMCuaRjt330cAkGEVK3ap3yDlg3EN6xbu sy7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwM/vUHTngdzNuEe+gSqdz/0fqbEbguc7Y+CSfarfV6HHbQNVRK 73Uw7zJPlrDJbsTi3Tckjskg8TfoTn+q0nam04a0xSs+tZFDpNfiUcWvt338LT1lcTa8MqXYvxS fuTrEoN039IsQLWKuQuvHm3Kde8VA X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4942:0:b0:323:1a0c:a5e0 with SMTP id r2-20020a5d4942000000b003231a0ca5e0mr17504336wrs.13.1697019606996; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 03:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGIgjc+mlRF8JEwSRkOqZZONAhpLDhlA5vn+Esdxlsijp24+viglHTaFtrOe5oPqEl8pjZlMw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4942:0:b0:323:1a0c:a5e0 with SMTP id r2-20020a5d4942000000b003231a0ca5e0mr17504318wrs.13.1697019606619; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 03:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 06:20:02 -0400 From: "Michael S. Tsirkin" To: "Zhu, Lingshan" Cc: Cornelia Huck , Parav Pandit , Jason Wang , "eperezma@redhat.com" , Stefan Hajnoczi , "virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org" , "virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org" Message-ID: <20231011061508-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> References: <20230926064201-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <305d9907-9668-d362-1ff2-49a5e9f90e42@intel.com> <20230927113510-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <558fe3d6-0b81-4def-7256-52ac3cbffa8f@intel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <558fe3d6-0b81-4def-7256-52ac3cbffa8f@intel.com> X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [virtio-dev] Re: [virtio-comment] Re: [virtio-dev] Re: [PATCH 0/5] virtio: introduce SUSPEND bit and vq state On Mon, Oct 09, 2023 at 06:01:42PM +0800, Zhu, Lingshan wrote: > > > On 9/27/2023 11:40 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 04:20:01PM +0800, Zhu, Lingshan wrote: > > > > > > On 9/26/2023 6:48 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 05:25:42PM +0800, Zhu, Lingshan wrote: > > > > > We don't want to repeat the discussions, it looks like endless circle with > > > > > no direction. > > > > OK let me try to direct this discussion. > > > > You guys were speaking past each other, no dialog is happening. > > > > And as long as it goes on no progress will be made and you > > > > will keep going in circles. > > > > > > > > Parav here made an effort and attempted to summarize > > > > use-cases addressed by your proposal but not his. > > > > He couldn't resist adding "a yes but" in there oh well. > > > > But now I hope you know he knows about your use-cases? > > > > > > > > So please do the same. Do you see any advantages to Parav's > > > > proposal as compared to yours? Try to list them and > > > > if possible try not to accompany the list with "yes but" > > > > (put it in a separate mail if you must ;) ). > > > > If you won't be able to see any, let me know and I'll try to help. > > > > > > > > Once each of you and Parav have finally heard the other and > > > > the other also knows he's been heard, that's when we can > > > > try to make progress by looking for something that addresses > > > > all use-cases as opposed to endlessly repeating same arguments. > > > Sure Michael, I will not say "yes but" here. > > > > > > From Parav's proposal, he intends to migrate a member device by its owner > > > device through the admin vq, > > > thus necessary admin vq commands are introduced in his series. > > > > > > > > > I see his proposal can: > > > 1) meet some customers requirements without nested and bare-metal > > > 2) align with Nvidia production > > > 3) easier to emulate by onboard SOC > > Is that all you can see? > > > > Hint: there's more. > please help provide more. Just a small subset off the top of my head: Error handling. Extendable to other group types such as SIOV. Batching of commands less pci transactioons Support for keeping some data off-device which does not mean it's better unconditionally. are above points clear? as long as you guys keep not hearing each other we will keep seeing these flame wars. if you expect everyone on virtio-comment to follow a 300 message thread you are imo very much mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The general purpose of his proposal and mine are aligned: migrate virtio > > > devices. > > > > > > Jason has ever proposed to collaborate, please allow me quote his proposal: > > > > > > " > > > Let me repeat once again here for the possible steps to collaboration: > > > > > > 1) define virtqueue state, inflight descriptors in the section of > > > basic facility but not under the admin commands > > > 2) define the dirty page tracking, device context/states in the > > > section of basic facility but not under the admin commands > > > 3) define transport specific interfaces or admin commands to access them > > > " > > > > > > I totally agree with his proposal. > > > > > > Does this work for you Michael? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Zhu Lingshan > > I just doubt very much this will work. What will "define" mean then - > > not an interface, just a description in english? I think you > > underestimate the difficulty of creating such definitions that > > are robust and precise. > I think we can review the patch to correct the words. > > > > > > Instead I suggest you define a way to submit admin commands that works > > for nested and bare-metal (i.e. not admin vq, and not with sriov group > > type). And work with Parav to make live migration admin commands work > > reasonably will through this interface and with this type. > why admin commands are better than registers? > > > > > This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input to the > OASIS Virtual I/O Device (VIRTIO) TC. > > In order to verify user consent to the Feedback License terms and > to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription is required > before posting. > > Subscribe: virtio-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > Unsubscribe: virtio-comment-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > List help: virtio-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org > List archive: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/virtio-comment/ > Feedback License: https://www.oasis-open.org/who/ipr/feedback_license.pdf > List Guidelines: https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/mailing-lists > Committee: https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/virtio/ > Join OASIS: https://www.oasis-open.org/join/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: virtio-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: virtio-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org