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jpeisach@ubuntu.com, smtp.forwardemail.net, 121.127.44.66 X-Forward-Email-Version: 2.18.11 X-Forward-Email-Website: https://forwardemail.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@forwardemail.net X-Report-Abuse: abuse@forwardemail.net X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@forwardemail.net X-Mailing-List: workflows@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Owner: Precedence: list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=Flowed Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2026 15:53:48 -0400 Message-Id: Cc: "Troy Benjegerdes" , "Theodore Tso" , "Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)" , "Laurent Pinchart" , "Krzysztof Kozlowski" , "Sasha Levin" , , , , , , , , , , "Greg Kroah-Hartman" , "Justin Stitt" , "Carlos Maiolino" , "Jakub Kicinski" , "Jori Koolstra" , "Brian Foster" , "Christoph Hellwig" , "David Disseldorp" , "Mark Brown" , "Jani Nikula" , "Jens Axboe" , "David Hildenbrand (Arm)" , "Vlastimil Babka" , "Christian Brauner (Amutable)" Subject: Re: [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references From: "Joshua Peisach" To: "Linus Torvalds" , X-Mailer: aerc 0.21.0 References: <20261009083137.3-1-sashal@kernel.org> <0914a106-bacf-4d95-854a-bfeefbff62a4@kernel.org> <20261013123132.GC4214@killaraus.ideasonboard.com> <20261013131243.GM56180@killaraus.ideasonboard.com> <4a2c667b14fafad7acef96af2585e41f158fdac0.camel@redhat.com> <00636bea8791e75b3b16afef2dc5ee7f2cb8bc0d.camel@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: On Mon Oct 26, 2026 at 3:39 PM EDT, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 at 09:04, wrote: >> >> On Wed, 2026-10-21 at 16:07 +0000, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: >> > >> > It *is* possible to make a deterministic LLM, and this is why I think >> > it >> > is critical to my personal future to have an LLM that can actually be >> > understood by a human instead of a random number generator casino >> > that >> > sometimes puts "4" in your private key. >> >> I hate to break it to you but that is literally not how large language >> models work. > > More importantly than that - the whole "deterministic" part is a total > red herring. > > We shouldn't even reply to that idiotic argument. > It's not idiotic. Would it be considered non-deterministic for a human to intentionally add a line of code causing a kernel panic for no reason at all? Or an LLM telling me to jump off a bridge? When it comes to human development, people *know* what they are putting in. An LLM does not think about the words it is spitting out. > Why? Nobody is arguing that we should stop take human patches because > "they aren't deterministic". > Except humans want to actually contribute to the kernel, not make their slavemaster happy. > So anybody who thinks we shouldn't use LLM as tools because of that > reason is just being dishonest. It's just a disguise for "I don't like > AI". It's not an argument, it's a complete strawman. > > We have had non-deterministic tools in the past. One trivial example > of that is just different compiler versions that have slightly > different instruction weights or just different rules. Even when they > are individually deterministic the end result is effectively that > different people will get different results. > > And not all tools have even been individually deterministic - actual > real non-deterministic behavior exists in non-LLM tools either becasue > they have timing issues or are explicitly using random numbers as a > way to get their results: Monte Carlo simulations is a very real > thing. > > And yes, non-determinism adds a wrinkle to things and it's something > that needs to be taken into account (and people often add things like > explicit seeds to avoid it when they need explicit determinism from > otherwise non-deterministic algorithms). So non-determinism is > something that should be weighed as a factor against what else the > tools brings you. > > But it's not actually an argument against LLM's. > > Linus Well said. But also, we won't be able to "submit bug reports to LLMs" like for years people have submitted bug reports to compilers. -Josh