Developers for virgl 3d windows guest support

Developers for virgl 3d windows guest support

[Fabio Fantoni]

I take a fast look to virgl 3d project even if I not tested it for now. 
It seems interesting for adding 2d and 3d hw acceleration support to 
virtual machines with a large hw (gpu) choice.
I take a look also to intel gvt-g but it has a very limited cpu support 
choice.
I saw that windows guest support with direct3d drivers in virgl is 
planned but I nothing was done for now.
I'm approaching a new project (based on xen) and I'm in planning phase now.
My goal would be to have virgl 3d windows guest support (drivers with 
opengl and direct3d) and support of remote rendering with spice (we are 
already using with qxl for now)
Are there any developers expert about these things that can advice me if 
developing windows drivers (WDDM kernel driver + GL and D3D userspace 
pieces) and any other needed pieces of code in virglrender, mesa, and 
/or qemu is a good choice?
If yes, what we would like to know is approx time/effort to have the 
above support upstream. Approximately how many persons and how many time 
would require to complete the tasks? (my project is going to be financed 
so we eventually have resource to schedule working time in the community)

Thanks for any reply and sorry for my bad english.
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Re: [Xen-devel] Developers for virgl 3d windows guest support

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:48:34PM +0100, Fabio Fantoni wrote:
> I take a fast look to virgl 3d project even if I not tested it for now. It
> seems interesting for adding 2d and 3d hw acceleration support to virtual
> machines with a large hw (gpu) choice.
> I take a look also to intel gvt-g but it has a very limited cpu support
> choice.
> I saw that windows guest support with direct3d drivers in virgl is planned
> but I nothing was done for now.
> I'm approaching a new project (based on xen) and I'm in planning phase now.
> My goal would be to have virgl 3d windows guest support (drivers with opengl
> and direct3d) and support of remote rendering with spice (we are already
> using with qxl for now)

Did you look at the VirtIO drivers and their roadmap?


> Are there any developers expert about these things that can advice me if
> developing windows drivers (WDDM kernel driver + GL and D3D userspace
> pieces) and any other needed pieces of code in virglrender, mesa, and /or
> qemu is a good choice?

I have no clue about Windows. But when I started working on Linux it took
me good three months to get comfortable. I would presume the same thing
is for Windows. Albeit you would need also to have understanding of
OpenGL.

> If yes, what we would like to know is approx time/effort to have the above
> support upstream. Approximately how many persons and how many time would
> require to complete the tasks? (my project is going to be financed so we
> eventually have resource to schedule working time in the community)

Um, .. Are you saying you need the person/month values so that you can
get the money? Or that you have the money and just need to figure out
if it can be done with the amount you have?

> 
> Thanks for any reply and sorry for my bad english.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel-GuqFBffKawuEi8DpZVb4nw@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel

Re: [Xen-devel] Developers for virgl 3d windows guest support

[Fabio Fantoni]

Il 27/01/2016 19:37, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk ha scritto:
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:48:34PM +0100, Fabio Fantoni wrote:
>> I take a fast look to virgl 3d project even if I not tested it for now. It
>> seems interesting for adding 2d and 3d hw acceleration support to virtual
>> machines with a large hw (gpu) choice.
>> I take a look also to intel gvt-g but it has a very limited cpu support
>> choice.
>> I saw that windows guest support with direct3d drivers in virgl is planned
>> but I nothing was done for now.
>> I'm approaching a new project (based on xen) and I'm in planning phase now.
>> My goal would be to have virgl 3d windows guest support (drivers with opengl
>> and direct3d) and support of remote rendering with spice (we are already
>> using with qxl for now)
> Did you look at the VirtIO drivers and their roadmap?

About virtio-gpu using virgl3d project for 3d hw acceleration support 
and is what I mainly watching for its large gpu choice/support, seems 
any gpu that have a drm driver in host kernel is supported by virgl, or 
I'm wrong?
I saw that they don't have short term plan about windows support: 
https://github.com/YanVugenfirer/kvm-guest-drivers-windows/issues/50

If you mean instead intel igvt-g and seems also nvidia with recent posts 
I saw, seems a good project but has very limited hardware choice.
Intel cpus with integrated gpu that support igvt-g don't seems powerful 
enough for major of servers I need to build (about xeon only workstation 
series seems support it).
About nvidia only grid card seems support it (high cost useful only for 
a minimal user target with intensive 3d usage FWIK)

I'm in evaulating/exploring which project/technology is more suitable 
for my goal. My goal is to run at least 10 windows Desktop vms (office 
and schools use target) on a xen host with 2d/3d hw acceleration support.

I'm wondering what solution is more long-term reliable and approceable 
to have such 2d/3d support and FWIK ity seems virgl is the way to go but 
i really need some advice from some expert out there in order to make 
the right choice.

>
>
>> Are there any developers expert about these things that can advice me if
>> developing windows drivers (WDDM kernel driver + GL and D3D userspace
>> pieces) and any other needed pieces of code in virglrender, mesa, and /or
>> qemu is a good choice?
> I have no clue about Windows. But when I started working on Linux it took
> me good three months to get comfortable. I would presume the same thing
> is for Windows. Albeit you would need also to have understanding of
> OpenGL.
>
>> If yes, what we would like to know is approx time/effort to have the above
>> support upstream. Approximately how many persons and how many time would
>> require to complete the tasks? (my project is going to be financed so we
>> eventually have resource to schedule working time in the community)
> Um, .. Are you saying you need the person/month values so that you can
> get the money? Or that you have the money and just need to figure out
> if it can be done with the amount you have?

I'm trying to understand if there are some persons able to start and 
close a payed project in order to have such 2d/3d support developed on 
both windows drivers side and whatever virtualGPU solution actually 
available (virgl or other that I'm not aware of).



Thanks for any reply and sorry for my bad english.
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Re: [Xen-devel] Developers for virgl 3d windows guest support

[Gerd Hoffmann]

  Hi,

> About virtio-gpu using virgl3d project for 3d hw acceleration support 
> and is what I mainly watching for its large gpu choice/support, seems 
> any gpu that have a drm driver in host kernel is supported by virgl, or 
> I'm wrong?

You need a mesa driver too.  But, yes, pretty much any modern hardware
with opengl supported by open source drivers should do.

> Intel cpus with integrated gpu that support igvt-g don't seems powerful 
> enough for major of servers I need to build (about xeon only workstation 
> series seems support it).

FYI:  Any broadwell + newer should do for intel-vgpu, long-term.
current experimental code releases include haswell too, but intel
doesn't plan to upstream that.

> I'm wondering what solution is more long-term reliable and approceable 
> to have such 2d/3d support and FWIK ity seems virgl is the way to go but 
> i really need some advice from some expert out there in order to make 
> the right choice.

I expect intel-vgpu and virgl both will be upstreamed at some point and
should work fine without too much hassle.

Intel has the advantage that windows drivers exist already, for virgl
they need to be written.

Intel has the disadvantage that it only works on newer intel hardware,
virgl works pretty much anywhere.  If you havn't yet ordered the
hardware this might not be much of a problem though.

But also note that being hardware-independent doesn't come for free,
there is some translation overhead involved.  When comparing intel-vgpu
and virgl on the same hardware intel will most likely deliver higher
performance.

> available (virgl or other that I'm not aware of).

Well, there is https://github.com/espes/xqemu/blob/xbox/hw/xbox/nv2a.c

Didn't have the time yet to look at this in detail, it's on my TODO list
though.

It is opengl-accelerated geforce nv2a emulation.  For an older qemu
version.  Plumbing that into opengl infrastructure qemu got recently for
virgl shouldn't be too hard.  Advantage of emulating something existing
is that the guest driver problem goes away.  Disavdantage of course is
that you are limited to what the emulated hardware is able to do (not
sure what level of opengl the nv2a is able to support).  Could be useful
for desktop workloads nevertheless.

Bottom line: lots of tradeoffs here, and also alot of work-in-progress
stuff ...

cheers,
  Gerd

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