Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Heimo Claasen]

The dependence on a GUI is indeed a bad thing. I did mention XBasic
because that seems to be the _only_ Basic dialect to be found for the
Linux environment at all.

And indeed I would like to find a textmode/comnand line Basic (or for
that matter, just any other language but C_variant), in order to port
some DOS stuff; except for system (administration) utilities and some
editors there are miserably few textmode _applications_ in those Linux
"distros".

// Heimo Claasen // <hammer at revobild dot net> // Brussels 2002-10-20
The WebPlace of ReRead - and much to read  ==>  http://www.revobild.net

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Elias Athanasopoulos]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 05:09:55PM +0000, Heimo Claasen wrote:
> The dependence on a GUI is indeed a bad thing. I did mention XBasic
> because that seems to be the _only_ Basic dialect to be found for the
> Linux environment at all.

No. There is a BASIC interpreter for Unix. Make some Google search.
Actually it was part of the standard installation of Slackware 3.0
system, but I can't recall the name.

> And indeed I would like to find a textmode/comnand line Basic (or for
> that matter, just any other language but C_variant), in order to port
> some DOS stuff; except for system (administration) utilities and some
> editors there are miserably few textmode _applications_ in those Linux
> "distros".

Huh? I can hardly believe that. Most of the applications I use, are console
oriented. Can you mention *one* application that you can find only in
GUI mode[0]?

Elias

[0] I maybe create one in text-mode then, but I can hardly imagine you'll
find an example. :-)

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Jim Reimer]

Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 05:09:55PM +0000, Heimo Claasen wrote:
> 
>>The dependence on a GUI is indeed a bad thing. I did mention XBasic
>>because that seems to be the _only_ Basic dialect to be found for the
>>Linux environment at all.
> 
> 
> No. There is a BASIC interpreter for Unix. Make some Google search.
> Actually it was part of the standard installation of Slackware 3.0
> system, but I can't recall the name.


bwbasic?  Used to use that on a SCO Unix system.

-jdr-


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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Ray Olszewski]

OK. Now that we're just talking about Basic (not VisualBasic, which was 
where this thread started), there are a ton of choices. I can't speak to 
quality, though ... just quantity. Some have already been suggested by others.

A quick search through the Debian package system turned up these two:

         yabasic - Yet Another BASIC interpreter
         bwbasic - Bywater BASIC Interpreter

TUCOWS (http://linux.tucows.com/system/basic.html) lists 6, the above two plus

         Chipmunk BASIC (I think this is the one that Slackware used to 
include)
         Cubix
         ScriptBasic
         STLBasic

Others that Google turned up ("linux BASIC interpreter", then following 
links a few steps in) include

         X11-BASIC (http://sourceforge.net/projects/x11-basic)
         ABSCIC (http://students.bath.ac.uk/cs1ars/b21lin2.html)
         Blassic (http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/notfound/blassic/)
         htBasic (http://www.techsoft.de/htbasic/linux.htm)
         smallBasic (http://smallbasic.sourceforge.net/)
         wxBasic (http://wxbasic.sourceforge.net/)
         KBasic (http://www.kbasic.org/1/home.php3) - not released yet
         Gnome Basic (http://www.gnome.org/projects/gb/) - not released yet
         gambas (http://gambas.sourceforge.net/)
         Mole Basic (http://www.xs4all.nl/~merty/mole/)
         Bas (http://www.moria.de/~michael/bas/)
         Brandy Basic V (http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dave_daniels/)
         gnbasic (http://www.excamera.com/articles/12/gnbasic.html)

I skipped the BASIC interpreters written in Java; theere are several of 
them as well.

Most of the ones I listed are not gui-dependent; just from their names, you 
can pretty much spot the few that are.

At 01:39 PM 10/20/02 -0500, Jim Reimer wrote:
>Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:
>>On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 05:09:55PM +0000, Heimo Claasen wrote:
>>
>>>The dependence on a GUI is indeed a bad thing. I did mention XBasic
>>>because that seems to be the _only_ Basic dialect to be found for the
>>>Linux environment at all.
>>
>>No. There is a BASIC interpreter for Unix. Make some Google search.
>>Actually it was part of the standard installation of Slackware 3.0
>>system, but I can't recall the name.
>
>
>bwbasic?  Used to use that on a SCO Unix system.




--
-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
Ray Olszewski					-- Han Solo
Palo Alto, California, USA			  ray@comarre.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Elias Athanasopoulos]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 01:39:46PM -0500, Jim Reimer wrote:
> 
> bwbasic?  Used to use that on a SCO Unix system.

Okay, I digged in my old CDs. It is bwbasic:

[anteater@neutrino anteater]$ cat /mnt/cdrom/sunsite/devel/lang/basic/bwbasic.lsm                  BBegin3
Title:          Bywater BASIC 
Version:        1.10
Entered-Date:   940128
Description:    A very minimalist ANSI BASIC interpreter
Keywords:       Languages BASIC basic 
Author:         tcamp@acpub.duke.edu (Ted A. Cambell)
Maintained-by:  patrick@linux.cnu.edu (J. Patrick Narkinsky)
Primary-site:   sunsite.unc.edu /pub/Linux/devel/basic
				182Kb bwbasic-bin.tgz
Original-site:  ftp.uu.net /systems/ibmpc/simtel/basic/bwb110s.zip
Copying-policy: Free for individuals and Academic institutions
End
				
Elias

PS. Although I'm totaly unaware, I have a strong feeling that even in
XBasic, the engine (the interpreter) can be distinguished from the GUI.
				
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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Elias Athanasopoulos]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 12:10:43PM -0700, Ray Olszewski wrote:
> 
>          Chipmunk BASIC (I think this is the one that Slackware used to 
> include)

Correct. In another post I refer to bwbasic. Well, this was in a CD-ROM
with software from sunsite, which was accompanying the Slackware 3.3 
distribution. :-) But the default package coming with Slackware 3.0 was
the one you mentioned.

Elias

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Heimo Claasen]

Sorry, I should have made this a bit more explicit: as the sub-thread
started from some exchange on XBasic v-a-v Quickbasic, I referred to the
lack of a Basic _compiler_.
(_interpreters_ use to be hotbeds for spaghetti code, indeed. And in
any case, they are "slow"; which is the reason for having binaries
progs at all.)

As to apps: Yes, there's a number of net tools (I like and use Lynx in
all its manifestations; there's WGET, FTP clients; I don't like Pine
that much though - I would prefer other ways of handling mail
archives, for instance.) Some sound tools do run from textmode command
line, though with not-so-evident handling/command interfaces. And sure
there's more.

But I think of, for instance, a simple print output formatter just
for line-printed text (no weird processor but something allowing
less crude printer output), a stopwatch (TSR or not), a text tool like
Buergh's LIST (quite a difference thing from a file handler like MC);
things like that are _comparatively_ easy to craft, appropriate to your
personal preferences, with a _comparably_ easy accessible language
like Basic.
(REM, I just _dislike_ C [syntax]; for just sentimental or whatever
reasons; I want an alternative.)
And I'd be a bit skeptical if you do that with Bash - is Midnight
Commander written in bash ?

// Heimo Claasen // <hammer at revobild dot net> // Brussels 2002-10-
The WebPlace of ReRead - and much to read  ==>  http://www.revobild.net

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[ichi]

Heimo Claasen wrote:
> 
> except for system (administration) utilities and some
> editors there are miserably few textmode _applications_ 
> in those Linux "distros".

What _applications_ are you talking about?
Browser?         lynx
Mail reader?     pine
File manager?    mc
Spreadsheet?     sc

You should find all of these (and more!) in your "distros".
However, you should not be surprised that commercial distros
are orientated toward point-and-click eye-candy.  That's
where the market is these days and they naturally go with 
the flow.  

Cheers,
Steven


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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[ichi]

Heimo Claasen wrote:
> 
> And indeed I would like to find a textmode/comnandline 
> Basic (or for that matter, just any other language but 
> C_variant), in order to port some DOS stuff; 

Have you considered using a BASH script?  I recently 
ported an old Adventure game from Commodore BASIC to 
BASH.  It works fine.  The only real difficulty was 
untangling the BASIC spaghetti (the original code had 
*many* GOTOs).  However, if your BASIC code is well 
structured, it should not be too difficult to convert
it to a BASH script.

Cheers,
Steven

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[jbradford]

If you like BASIC, but can't find a Linux implementation that suits
you, why not compile PHP for command line use - it's a powerful
language that's pretty easy to migrate to from BASIC, plus, once
you've learnt it, you can use it for web-based applications as well.

http://www.php.net

John.
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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Elias Athanasopoulos]

On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 10:04:30PM +0000, Heimo Claasen wrote:
> Sorry, I should have made this a bit more explicit: as the sub-thread
> started from some exchange on XBasic v-a-v Quickbasic, I referred to the
> lack of a Basic _compiler_.
> (_interpreters_ use to be hotbeds for spaghetti code, indeed. And in
> any case, they are "slow"; which is the reason for having binaries
> progs at all.)

Excuse me, I don't want to start a flamewar, but compilers/interpreters have
nothing to do with the aesthitic result of your code. This has to do 100%
with the grammar/syntax of the language you are coding.

And BASIC is number 1 candidate for spaghetti code...

Elias

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[David Jones]

On 22 Oct 02, at 1:12, Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 10:04:30PM +0000, Heimo Claasen
> wrote: > Sorry, I should have made this a bit more
> explicit: as the sub-thread > started from some exchange
> on XBasic v-a-v Quickbasic, I referred to the > lack of a
> Basic _compiler_. > (_interpreters_ use to be hotbeds for
> spaghetti code, indeed. And in > any case, they are
> "slow"; which is the reason for having binaries > progs at
> all.)
> 
> Excuse me, I don't want to start a flamewar, but
> compilers/interpreters have nothing to do with the
> aesthitic result of your code. This has to do 100% with
> the grammar/syntax of the language you are coding.

No, it has 100% to do with the way you code. You can 
write non-spaghetti code in BASIC. And personally, I 
find C's beloved pointers to be far more dangerous than 
BASIC's GOTO! ;-)

David
gnome@hawaii.rr.com

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Elias Athanasopoulos]

On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 08:02:33PM -1000, David Jones wrote:
> No, it has 100% to do with the way you code. You can 

This is the criterion from the user/programmer perspective. It is
well known that you can use almost everything in a bad manner...

You can kill someone even using a pen, but it's kinda easier to do
it with an M-16. :-)

> write non-spaghetti code in BASIC. And personally, I 
> find C's beloved pointers to be far more dangerous than 
> BASIC's GOTO! ;-)

Goto is a myth. C uses it, too. IMHO, it's quite useful. The goto becomes
a problem when it is used a lot without a sane reason.

As far as the pointers are concerned, pls don't mix "difficult to read
code" with "spaghetti code". Pointers can give *elegant* solutions to many
problems. That's the reason they are so popular.

Elias

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[ichi]

Heimo Claasen wrote:
> 
> As to apps: Yes, there's a number of net tools; there's 
> WGET, FTP clients; I don't like Pine that much though 

Have you tried Elm?

> Some sound tools do run from textmode command line, 
> And sure there's more.

Then why did you say the following?

> > > there are miserably few textmode _applications_  

> But I think of, for instance, a simple print output 
> formatter just for line-printed text (no weird processor 
> but something allowing less crude printer output), 

I've seen a BASH script that does this.  It's part of
the muLinux distro.

> a stopwatch (TSR or not), 

It would be simple to write a BASH script to do this.

> a text tool like Buergh's LIST 

This has been done.  I tried LIST (the ELF executable)
a couple of years ago.  I preferred mc.

> things like that are _comparatively_ easy to craft, 

Indeed.

> with a _comparably_ easy accessible language like Basic.

Or BASH.  Or Perl.  Or Python.  Or whatever.

> I just _dislike_ C [syntax]; for just sentimental or whatever
> reasons; I want an alternative.

Fine, go for it.  You have plenty of options to choose from.
Instead of complaining about a lack of options in Linux, you 
really should take a good look at what is available.  

Cheers,
Steven

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[David Jones]

On 22 Oct 02, at 11:34, Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 08:02:33PM -1000, David Jones
> wrote:
> No, it has 100% to do with the way you code. You
> can 
> 
> This is the criterion from the user/programmer
> perspective. It is well known that you can use almost
> everything in a bad manner...

That's right. Being a former tech writer, I've seen most 
any language used in that way. ;-)

> You can kill someone even using a pen, but it's kinda
> easier to do it with an M-16. :-)

And even easier with a shotgun (which is an image I 
sometimes get when consider C pointers), ;-)

> > write non-spaghetti code in BASIC. And personally, I
> > find C's beloved pointers to be far more dangerous than
> > BASIC's GOTO! ;-)
> 
> Goto is a myth. C uses it, too. IMHO, it's quite useful.
> The goto becomes a problem when it is used a lot without a
> sane reason.

Better to say that the idea that "GOTO is evil and must 
be exorcized at once" is a myth. Most folk I've read 
complaining about GOTO have been academic computer 
language designers.

GOTO has its good points - my programming experience 
was partly in good old Commodore BASIC and 
GWBASIC, where a well-placed GOTO was great. 
(Unlike C's pointers, a BASIC GOTO can't shoot you off 
somewhere to an unknown memory location.) My other 
programming experience is in Forth. The Forth I used 
didn't have a GOTO at all, although you could certainly 
make one yourself if you really wanted to.

> As far as the pointers are concerned, pls don't mix
> "difficult to read code" with "spaghetti code". Pointers
> can give *elegant* solutions to many problems. That's the
> reason they are so popular.

Oh, I'm not mixing them - I understand the difference. 
Pointers can be very elegant, yes. But one must use 
them carefully, lest one experience a phenomonon folk 
programmning the old 68000 called "addressing grey 
space" because an invalid value had been used as a 
pointer.

I'm no C programmer, so I know I'd find a chain of 
bizarre GOTOs easier to figure out than some of the 
complex pointer stuff I've glimpsed in my limited C code 
reading. A co-worker who's a longtime C/C++ 
programmer would understand the pointer stuff at a 
glance.

BTW, gnewtellium sounds like fun. Thanks for the link!

David
gnome@hawaii.rr.com

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Jude DaShiell]

Well, obasic may be available.  It costs about $100.00 for the registered
version but I don't know if the company survived.




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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Jude DaShiell]

No basic is not and never was #1 candidate for spaghetti code!  That
disgrace belongs to Cobol.



On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 10:04:30PM +0000, Heimo Claasen wrote:
> > Sorry, I should have made this a bit more explicit: as the sub-thread
> > started from some exchange on XBasic v-a-v Quickbasic, I referred to the
> > lack of a Basic _compiler_.
> > (_interpreters_ use to be hotbeds for spaghetti code, indeed. And in
> > any case, they are "slow"; which is the reason for having binaries
> > progs at all.)
>
> Excuse me, I don't want to start a flamewar, but compilers/interpreters have
> nothing to do with the aesthitic result of your code. This has to do 100%
> with the grammar/syntax of the language you are coding.
>
> And BASIC is number 1 candidate for spaghetti code...
>
> Elias
>
> --
> http://gnewtellium.sourceforge.net			MP3 is not a crime.
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-newbie" in
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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Jude DaShiell]

Windows is a special case.  With windows there's no good way to use
anything.  The code efficiency on windows would gagg any of the CP/M
programmers that might audit it.



On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, David Jones wrote:

> On 22 Oct 02, at 11:34, Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 08:02:33PM -1000, David Jones
> > wrote:
> > No, it has 100% to do with the way you code. You
> > can
> >
> > This is the criterion from the user/programmer
> > perspective. It is well known that you can use almost
> > everything in a bad manner...
>
> That's right. Being a former tech writer, I've seen most
> any language used in that way. ;-)
>
> > You can kill someone even using a pen, but it's kinda
> > easier to do it with an M-16. :-)
>
> And even easier with a shotgun (which is an image I
> sometimes get when consider C pointers), ;-)
>
> > > write non-spaghetti code in BASIC. And personally, I
> > > find C's beloved pointers to be far more dangerous than
> > > BASIC's GOTO! ;-)
> >
> > Goto is a myth. C uses it, too. IMHO, it's quite useful.
> > The goto becomes a problem when it is used a lot without a
> > sane reason.
>
> Better to say that the idea that "GOTO is evil and must
> be exorcized at once" is a myth. Most folk I've read
> complaining about GOTO have been academic computer
> language designers.
>
> GOTO has its good points - my programming experience
> was partly in good old Commodore BASIC and
> GWBASIC, where a well-placed GOTO was great.
> (Unlike C's pointers, a BASIC GOTO can't shoot you off
> somewhere to an unknown memory location.) My other
> programming experience is in Forth. The Forth I used
> didn't have a GOTO at all, although you could certainly
> make one yourself if you really wanted to.
>
> > As far as the pointers are concerned, pls don't mix
> > "difficult to read code" with "spaghetti code". Pointers
> > can give *elegant* solutions to many problems. That's the
> > reason they are so popular.
>
> Oh, I'm not mixing them - I understand the difference.
> Pointers can be very elegant, yes. But one must use
> them carefully, lest one experience a phenomonon folk
> programmning the old 68000 called "addressing grey
> space" because an invalid value had been used as a
> pointer.
>
> I'm no C programmer, so I know I'd find a chain of
> bizarre GOTOs easier to figure out than some of the
> complex pointer stuff I've glimpsed in my limited C code
> reading. A co-worker who's a longtime C/C++
> programmer would understand the pointer stuff at a
> glance.
>
> BTW, gnewtellium sounds like fun. Thanks for the link!
>
> David
> gnome@hawaii.rr.com
>
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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[David Jones]

On 23 Oct 02, at 8:27, Jude DaShiell wrote:

> Windows is a special case.  With windows there's no good
> way to use anything.  The code efficiency on windows would
> gagg any of the CP/M programmers that might audit it.

Very true, very true! ;-)

David
gnome@hawaii.rr.com

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Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)

[Brandon George]

here is yet another link for quite a few basic interpreters/compilers.
http://www.thefreecountry.com/developercity/basic.shtml


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Olszewski" <ray@comarre.com>
To: "Jim Reimer" <wa5rrh@arrl.net>; <linux-newbie@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: (X and other) basics (was: A few more things...)


> OK. Now that we're just talking about Basic (not VisualBasic, which was
> where this thread started), there are a ton of choices. I can't speak to
> quality, though ... just quantity. Some have already been suggested by
others.
>
> A quick search through the Debian package system turned up these two:
>
>          yabasic - Yet Another BASIC interpreter
>          bwbasic - Bywater BASIC Interpreter
>
> TUCOWS (http://linux.tucows.com/system/basic.html) lists 6, the above two
plus
>
>          Chipmunk BASIC (I think this is the one that Slackware used to
> include)
>          Cubix
>          ScriptBasic
>          STLBasic
>
> Others that Google turned up ("linux BASIC interpreter", then following
> links a few steps in) include
>
>          X11-BASIC (http://sourceforge.net/projects/x11-basic)
>          ABSCIC (http://students.bath.ac.uk/cs1ars/b21lin2.html)
>          Blassic (http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/notfound/blassic/)
>          htBasic (http://www.techsoft.de/htbasic/linux.htm)
>          smallBasic (http://smallbasic.sourceforge.net/)
>          wxBasic (http://wxbasic.sourceforge.net/)
>          KBasic (http://www.kbasic.org/1/home.php3) - not released yet
>          Gnome Basic (http://www.gnome.org/projects/gb/) - not released
yet
>          gambas (http://gambas.sourceforge.net/)
>          Mole Basic (http://www.xs4all.nl/~merty/mole/)
>          Bas (http://www.moria.de/~michael/bas/)
>          Brandy Basic V (http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dave_daniels/)
>          gnbasic (http://www.excamera.com/articles/12/gnbasic.html)
>
> I skipped the BASIC interpreters written in Java; theere are several of
> them as well.
>
> Most of the ones I listed are not gui-dependent; just from their names,
you
> can pretty much spot the few that are.
>
> At 01:39 PM 10/20/02 -0500, Jim Reimer wrote:
> >Elias Athanasopoulos wrote:
> >>On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 05:09:55PM +0000, Heimo Claasen wrote:
> >>
> >>>The dependence on a GUI is indeed a bad thing. I did mention XBasic
> >>>because that seems to be the _only_ Basic dialect to be found for the
> >>>Linux environment at all.
> >>
> >>No. There is a BASIC interpreter for Unix. Make some Google search.
> >>Actually it was part of the standard installation of Slackware 3.0
> >>system, but I can't recall the name.
> >
> >
> >bwbasic?  Used to use that on a SCO Unix system.
>
>
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------"Never tell me the
odds!"--------
> Ray Olszewski -- Han Solo
> Palo Alto, California, USA   ray@comarre.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
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