* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
@ 2025-08-25 16:05 ` Jan Beulich
2025-08-25 21:30 ` Jason Andryuk
` (7 subsequent siblings)
8 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jan Beulich @ 2025-08-25 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko; +Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
On 25.08.2025 17:50, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
As per a mail sent earlier today, for these two we will need to settle on
which route to take, including the consideration of whether the work can
realistically be completed in time (or whether an upfront exception could
be granted).
Jan
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
>
> It looks like some of these patch series still require additional work,
> and I’m not sure there is enough time left before the end of this week.
>
> Could I kindly ask for an estimation of whether these tasks can be completed in time?
>
> [1]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/87jz2vaq9h.fsf@epam.com/
> [2]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/cover.1753184487.git.oleksii_moisieiev@epam.com/
> [3]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/7e6477a83ab65220ef1c5dd22f4ef3536fbbdd5c.1754568795.git.leonid_komarianskyi@epam.com/
>
> [4]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250808202314.1045968-1-andrew.cooper3@citrix.com/
> [5]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250815204117.3312742-1-andrew.cooper3@citrix.com/
>
> [6]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250803094738.3625269-6-Penny.Zheng@amd.com/
> [7]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250815102728.1340505-1-Penny.Zheng@amd.com/
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksii
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
2025-08-25 16:05 ` Jan Beulich
@ 2025-08-25 21:30 ` Jason Andryuk
2025-08-26 5:55 ` Jan Beulich
` (6 subsequent siblings)
8 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jason Andryuk @ 2025-08-25 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko, Xen-devel, Community Manager,
committers@xenproject.org
On 2025-08-25 11:50, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
Hi Oleksii,
I'd like to get
https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250822213946.245307-1-jason.andryuk@amd.com/T/#t
in if possible.
It's v2, and there were 3 RFC postings before the v1 as well.
Thanks,
Jason
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
2025-08-25 16:05 ` Jan Beulich
2025-08-25 21:30 ` Jason Andryuk
@ 2025-08-26 5:55 ` Jan Beulich
2025-08-26 15:56 ` Oleksii Kurochko
2025-08-26 19:12 ` Andrew Cooper
` (5 subsequent siblings)
8 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jan Beulich @ 2025-08-26 5:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko; +Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
On 25.08.2025 17:50, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
"amd-cppc CPU Performance Scaling Driver" has been pending for quite a while,
and really ought to make it imo. I'm inclined to say even if an exception was
needed. Parts have gone in, I'm about to commit more parts, but whether
everything would be in by Friday I can't predict.
Jan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-26 5:55 ` Jan Beulich
@ 2025-08-26 15:56 ` Oleksii Kurochko
2025-08-27 2:05 ` Penny, Zheng
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Oleksii Kurochko @ 2025-08-26 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Beulich, Penny Zheng
Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1188 bytes --]
+ Penny Zheng
On 8/26/25 7:55 AM, Jan Beulich wrote:
> On 25.08.2025 17:50, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
>> Hello community,
>>
>> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
>> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
>> to be merged into 4.21:
>>
>> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
>> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
>> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
>> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
>> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
>> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
>> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
> "amd-cppc CPU Performance Scaling Driver" has been pending for quite a while,
> and really ought to make it imo. I'm inclined to say even if an exception was
> needed. Parts have gone in, I'm about to commit more parts, but whether
> everything would be in by Friday I can't predict.
Considering that only a few patches are required to receive Ack/Reviewed-by,
this could be considered for inclusion in 4.21.
Penny, do you have some time to provide a new version of the "amd-cppc CPU
Performance Scaling Driver" patch series?
~ Oleksii
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* RE: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-26 15:56 ` Oleksii Kurochko
@ 2025-08-27 2:05 ` Penny, Zheng
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Penny, Zheng @ 2025-08-27 2:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko, Jan Beulich
Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org,
Huang, Ray
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1651 bytes --]
[Public]
From: Oleksii Kurochko <oleksii.kurochko@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2025 11:57 PM
To: Jan Beulich <jbeulich@suse.com>; Penny, Zheng <penny.zheng@amd.com>
Cc: Xen-devel <xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org>; Community Manager <community.manager@xenproject.org>; committers@xenproject.org
Subject: Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
+ Penny Zheng
On 8/26/25 7:55 AM, Jan Beulich wrote:
On 25.08.2025 17:50, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
Hello community,
I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
to be merged into 4.21:
1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
7. Some other patch series I missed.
"amd-cppc CPU Performance Scaling Driver" has been pending for quite a while,
and really ought to make it imo. I'm inclined to say even if an exception was
needed. Parts have gone in, I'm about to commit more parts, but whether
everything would be in by Friday I can't predict.
Considering that only a few patches are required to receive Ack/Reviewed-by,
this could be considered for inclusion in 4.21.
Penny, do you have some time to provide a new version of the "amd-cppc CPU
Performance Scaling Driver" patch series?
Absolutely, I’ll push a new version before Friday
~ Oleksii
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2025-08-26 5:55 ` Jan Beulich
@ 2025-08-26 19:12 ` Andrew Cooper
2025-08-28 13:43 ` Oleksii Kurochko
2025-08-26 19:18 ` Andrew Cooper
` (4 subsequent siblings)
8 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Cooper @ 2025-08-26 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko, Xen-devel, Community Manager,
committers@xenproject.org
On 25/08/2025 4:50 pm, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
For FRED, That's all that's out on the list.
I've got an update to 4 almost ready to post, this time getting to dev
complete.
Unfortunately, I've still not managed to get any time on real hardware
yet, so FRED will still be experimental in my series. (The timelines
were originally compatible with Xen 4.21, but access to hardware has not
been as forthcoming as hoped.)
When I can test on real hardware, there may be bugfixes, and I may be
able to upgrade the status if we're not too far into the RCs.
~Andrew
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-26 19:12 ` Andrew Cooper
@ 2025-08-28 13:43 ` Oleksii Kurochko
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Oleksii Kurochko @ 2025-08-28 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrew Cooper, Xen-devel, Community Manager,
committers@xenproject.org
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1279 bytes --]
On 8/26/25 9:12 PM, Andrew Cooper wrote:
> On 25/08/2025 4:50 pm, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
>> Hello community,
>>
>> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
>> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
>> to be merged into 4.21:
>>
>> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
>> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
>> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
>> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> For FRED, That's all that's out on the list.
>
> I've got an update to 4 almost ready to post, this time getting to dev
> complete.
>
> Unfortunately, I've still not managed to get any time on real hardware
> yet, so FRED will still be experimental in my series. (The timelines
> were originally compatible with Xen 4.21, but access to hardware has not
> been as forthcoming as hoped.)
>
> When I can test on real hardware, there may be bugfixes, and I may be
> able to upgrade the status if we're not too far into the RCs.
Sounds good to me. Let’s wait until you’re able to test it on real hardware.
We’ll have some extra time during the Feature Freeze period, and the RCs
will be moved as well. I’ll announce this a little later today.
~ Oleksii
>
> ~Andrew
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2025-08-26 19:12 ` Andrew Cooper
@ 2025-08-26 19:18 ` Andrew Cooper
2025-08-27 9:24 ` Jan Beulich
` (3 subsequent siblings)
8 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Cooper @ 2025-08-26 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko, Xen-devel, Community Manager,
committers@xenproject.org
On 25/08/2025 4:50 pm, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
There's still a pile of CI bugfixes (de-root the ARM containers, fix
tools-tests) and improvements (Debian Trixie, Alpine), as well as bugs
that need fixing which aren't complete yet (fixes for the de-rooted x86
containers, see if we can do something about the KBL console problem).
Adding Trixie, and moving off an obsolete version of Alpine are critical
for the release, but I need to get FRED more done before I can come back
to this.
~Andrew
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2025-08-26 19:18 ` Andrew Cooper
@ 2025-08-27 9:24 ` Jan Beulich
2025-08-27 10:31 ` Andrew Cooper
` (2 subsequent siblings)
8 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jan Beulich @ 2025-08-27 9:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko; +Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
On 25.08.2025 17:50, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
"symbols: assorted adjustments" plus the later "symbols: discard stray file
symbols", provided someone would take the time to actually look at the patches?
Jan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
` (5 preceding siblings ...)
2025-08-27 9:24 ` Jan Beulich
@ 2025-08-27 10:31 ` Andrew Cooper
2025-08-27 14:46 ` Anthony PERARD
2025-08-28 13:50 ` Oleksii Kurochko
8 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Cooper @ 2025-08-27 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko, Xen-devel, Community Manager,
committers@xenproject.org
On 25/08/2025 4:50 pm, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
Fixes for Intel Fam18/19. These are partly done, with some work
remaining. These are more of a bugfix than a feature anyway, and needed
in order for Xen to function on CPUs being released this year (i.e.
fairly critical for 4.21.)
Cleanup/etc for new toolchains. There's been a lot of work done
already, with a few already-posted patches needing a refresh.
Both of these areas are low risk changes and have been going on (at a
background priority) for most of 4.21. They should be safe into the
first few RCs.
~Andrew
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
` (6 preceding siblings ...)
2025-08-27 10:31 ` Andrew Cooper
@ 2025-08-27 14:46 ` Anthony PERARD
2025-08-27 14:48 ` Andrew Cooper
2025-08-28 13:50 ` Oleksii Kurochko
8 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Anthony PERARD @ 2025-08-27 14:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Oleksii Kurochko; +Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 05:50:02PM +0200, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
Do we want to add this following one to the list?
- Allow to build libxl and other tools with json-c instead of yajl
https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250808145602.41716-1-anthony@xenproject.org/
Cheers,
--
Anthony PERARD
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-27 14:46 ` Anthony PERARD
@ 2025-08-27 14:48 ` Andrew Cooper
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Cooper @ 2025-08-27 14:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Anthony PERARD, Oleksii Kurochko
Cc: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
On 27/08/2025 3:46 pm, Anthony PERARD wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 05:50:02PM +0200, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
>> Hello community,
>>
>> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
>> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
>> to be merged into 4.21:
>>
>> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
>> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
>> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
>> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
>> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
>> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
>> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
> Do we want to add this following one to the list?
> - Allow to build libxl and other tools with json-c instead of yajl
> https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250808145602.41716-1-anthony@xenproject.org/
Yes. That was requested by downstreams, and is also bordering on a bugfix.
~Andrew
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025
2025-08-25 15:50 [Reminder] Feature Freeze is Fri Aug 29, 2025 Oleksii Kurochko
` (7 preceding siblings ...)
2025-08-27 14:46 ` Anthony PERARD
@ 2025-08-28 13:50 ` Oleksii Kurochko
8 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Oleksii Kurochko @ 2025-08-28 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xen-devel, Community Manager, committers@xenproject.org
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1808 bytes --]
Hello Community,
Considering the number of requests in this mailing thread,
I think it makes sense to extend the Feature Freeze period
by at least one week, moving the deadline to September 5th.
I will send a separate e-mail with that information.
Thanks, everyone, for your responses.
~ Oleksii
On 8/25/25 5:50 PM, Oleksii Kurochko wrote:
> Hello community,
>
> I’d like to remind everyone that the Feature Freeze deadline is approaching,
> and we still have some outstanding requests from the community for patch series
> to be merged into 4.21:
>
> 1. Enable guest suspend/resume support on ARM via vPSCI [1]
> 2. Introduce SCI SCMI SMC multi-agent support [2]
> 3. Introduce eSPI support [3]
> 4. FRED work: [4], [5], possibly others (?)
> 5. Introduce CONFIG_DOMCTL [6]
> 6. xen/x86: move domctl.o out of PV_SHIM_EXCLUSIVE [7]
> 7. Some other patch series I missed.
>
> It looks like some of these patch series still require additional work,
> and I’m not sure there is enough time left before the end of this week.
>
> Could I kindly ask for an estimation of whether these tasks can be completed in time?
>
> [1]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/87jz2vaq9h.fsf@epam.com/
> [2]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/cover.1753184487.git.oleksii_moisieiev@epam.com/
> [3]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/7e6477a83ab65220ef1c5dd22f4ef3536fbbdd5c.1754568795.git.leonid_komarianskyi@epam.com/
>
> [4]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250808202314.1045968-1-andrew.cooper3@citrix.com/
> [5]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250815204117.3312742-1-andrew.cooper3@citrix.com/
>
> [6]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250803094738.3625269-6-Penny.Zheng@amd.com/
> [7]https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250815102728.1340505-1-Penny.Zheng@amd.com/
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksii
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread